Crown

noone1:

Hybrid only exists because

The word "only" does not make much sense in this context... Usability makes all the difference to almost all car buyers on this planet  

Usability really an irrational fear for most. Anyone who lives in a house could easily be served by an EV. The problem is EVs are still too expensive.

noone1:

Usability really an irrational fear for most. Anyone who lives in a house could easily be served by an EV. The problem is EVs are still too expensive.

And when they are too expensive, not many can 'use' them now can they? So there we go with the usability question again.

And home charging is only useful IF someone actually remember to charge the car. I have wired a 220V charger at home for the 918, most of the time I remember to plug it in, but there are time when I forget. With the 918 it's fine as it is an hybrid, I can always drive with the engine on, not so for a pure electric car, it might as be an expensive garage decoration if someone forgot to plug it in overnight.

Whoopsy:

noone1:

Usability really an irrational fear for most. Anyone who lives in a house could easily be served by an EV. The problem is EVs are still too expensive.

 

And when they are too expensive, not many can 'use' them now can they? So there we go with the usability question again.

And home charging is only useful IF someone actually remember to charge the car. I have wired a 220V charger at home for the 918, most of the time I remember to plug it in, but there are time when I forget. With the 918 it's fine as it is an hybrid, I can always drive with the engine on, not so for a pure electric car, it might as be an expensive garage decoration if someone forgot to plug it in overnight.

They'll be much cheaper in the not too distance future.

You may forget to charge it every now and then, but I'm going to guess you don't have a 9-5 that you do day in, day out. Those people don't need 300 miles of charge on a whim. Charging an EV is not like filling up at a gas station. No one tops up every day, or when they have half a tank. They want to go to the gas station as seldom as possible and tend to do it when the light comes on. Charging an EV though takes no effort at all. You can just run outside real quick and plug it in any time you're home. It isn't a hassle or a chore. You could literally wake up in the middle of the night and run downstairs real quick.

EVs will rarely be out of power because their capacity allows them a much greater window for charging than your 918. A 918 with no charge could mean you forgot to charge it one night. An EV out of power would mean you forgot to charge it for 5-7 days in a row. A normal EV provides a much greater window for charging to avoid running out of power than a 918 does.

People don't go a week without charging their phone, so I doubt they'll go a week without charging their car.

And lets not forget that the leading reason people wake up with their gas light on is because they just want to get home and figure they'll just get up earlier and fill it in the morning. I guarantee you those people would have no problem "filling up" their car if they could do it when they go home.

You assumption is flawed. You expect humans to behave in a certain way, that they will charge a EV religiously.

Real world people don't. The general public is stupid, period.

I came to that conclusion a long time ago, when I was in the IT business. In programming, some people write codes expecting a certain things to happen, that users will behave as we expect them to, and do things that we expect them to do in whatever sequence that we expect them to. 

One time there was this form filling interface, the programmer expect the form to be filled from the top down, and when the last box gets filled, it will automatically advance to the next page. Nothing wrong with that on the surface, expect real world humans do not always fill boxes from the top down. Needless to say, the program keep crashing during testing and the programmer can't figure it out why anyone would not want to do it logically from the top down, so he did't code in the alternatives. 

Whoopsy:

You assumption is flawed. You expect humans to behave in a certain way, that they will charge a EV religiously.

Real world people don't. The general public is stupid, period.

I came to that conclusion a long time ago, when I was in the IT business. In programming, some people write codes expecting a certain things to happen, that users will behave as we expect them to, and do things that we expect them to do in whatever sequence that we expect them to. 

One time there was this form filling interface, the programmer expect the form to be filled from the top down, and when the last box gets filled, it will automatically advance to the next page. Nothing wrong with that on the surface, expect real world humans do not always fill boxes from the top down. Needless to say, the program keep crashing during testing and the programmer can't figure it out why anyone would not want to do it logically from the top down, so he did't code in the alternatives. 

It's weird you came to that conclusion with your example because that example is clearly a case of a terrible programming idea. The problem isn't that most people don't fill in forms from top to bottom, it's that the programmer assumed people don't accidentally miss or skip field, let alone decide to fill a later form first. I've definitely filled forms out of order with good reason. I can't imagine ever programming a form such that the order of field entry is even cared about.

You missed the entire point, btw. The whole point is that with a normal EV, unlike the 918, you don't have to charge religiously. Let's say you have 220 miles of range. The average daily mileage in the US is about 30 miles. That would mean you have 7 days of range on average, and therefor you could charge it at any time during a 7 day stretch to restart the countdown. You could charge it on day 2, day 4, day 7... up to you. As long as you charge it one night in any given 7 day stretch, you're fine.

Charging once a week does not imply charging religiously. And it's not like it doesn't tell you how much you have left. It will be the same as your gas light. When it comes on, it means you can't get to work tomorrow unless you plug it on. Chances are that you're going to plug it in, just like chances are you're going to get gas.

You charge your phone, do you?

noone1:

Whoopsy:

You assumption is flawed. You expect humans to behave in a certain way, that they will charge a EV religiously.

Real world people don't. The general public is stupid, period.

I came to that conclusion a long time ago, when I was in the IT business. In programming, some people write codes expecting a certain things to happen, that users will behave as we expect them to, and do things that we expect them to do in whatever sequence that we expect them to. 

One time there was this form filling interface, the programmer expect the form to be filled from the top down, and when the last box gets filled, it will automatically advance to the next page. Nothing wrong with that on the surface, expect real world humans do not always fill boxes from the top down. Needless to say, the program keep crashing during testing and the programmer can't figure it out why anyone would not want to do it logically from the top down, so he did't code in the alternatives. 

It's weird you came to that conclusion with your example because that example is clearly a case of a terrible programming idea. The problem isn't that most people don't fill in forms from top to bottom, it's that the programmer assumed people don't accidentally miss or skip field, let alone decide to fill a later form first. I've definitely filled forms out of order with good reason. I can't imagine ever programming a form such that the order of field entry is even cared about.

You missed the entire point, btw. The whole point is that with a normal EV, unlike the 918, you don't have to charge religiously. Let's say you have 220 miles of range. The average daily mileage in the US is about 30 miles. That would mean you have 7 days of range on average, and therefor you could charge it at any time during a 7 day stretch to restart the countdown. You could charge it on day 2, day 4, day 7... up to you. As long as you charge it one night in any given 7 day stretch, you're fine.

Charging once a week does not imply charging religiously. And it's not like it doesn't tell you how much you have left. It will be the same as your gas light. When it comes on, it means you can't get to work tomorrow unless you plug it on. Chances are that you're going to plug it in, just like chances are you're going to get gas.

No, you completely missed the point. 

The point is, humans in general are not logical, and they do unexpected stuff. You might expect a certain outcome based on logical thinking but the general public may not be that logical.

Say a Tesla can last 7 days for a full charge. You are quite correct that people might not charge it every day, they might charge it every 2 days or 3 days. Some might even charge it on the last day, like people do in a gasoline powered car, used up the whole tank before refuelling. But some people do forget which day it is and forgot to plug it in on the last day for whatever reasons. 

Just like the Americans. People all around the world are logical and buckle up where they get in a car, but for some reason the Americans doesn't like being buckled up. We RoW cannot even try to understand that thinking. 

How about traveling? Airports all around the whole forbid carrying guns to an airplane, it doesn't mean everyone will obey, very often we read a news story about someone trying to bring a gun pass TSA.

SciFrog:

You charge your phone, do you?

Most of the time I do every night as home, but sometimes for whatever reason I do forget. No biggie. I just go to the nearest 'gas station' the next morning, I.e. get in the car and use the car charger instead.

Charging an EV is not THAT easy.

noone1:

Usability really an irrational fear for most. Anyone who lives in a house could easily be served by an EV. The problem is EVs are still too expensive.

Based on this logic most features in modern cars serve "irrational" fears (i.e. safety features like ESP; ABS, Airbag etc.). The risk of having an accident is far lower than the risk of overestimating the remaining battery power, just as an example to show that the logic you present is not quite logical 

noone1:

 

They'll be much cheaper in the not too distance future.

 

Who can tell? It all depends on the development of new battery technologies. Major breakthroughs in this field can take 5, 10, 20 years - who knows  Until then: these products are inferior and expensive.

Whoopsy:

 

The point is, humans in general are not logical, and they do unexpected stuff. You might expect a certain outcome based on logical thinking but the general public may not be that logical.

Tell me about it. My wife is the best example for it and every time I tell her "...but this is the logical course of action...", she replies in a very angry way: "I'm not as intelligent as you are...", which basically means: "Leave me alone, you ass.".   Had the same experience with many different people and I learned to keep my mouth shut because they would consider my reaction to be...arrogant. 

Say a Tesla can last 7 days for a full charge. You are quite correct that people might not charge it every day, they might charge it every 2 days or 3 days. Some might even charge it on the last day, like people do in a gasoline powered car, used up the whole tank before refuelling. But some people do forget which day it is and forgot to plug it in on the last day for whatever reasons. 

My son always forgets to charge this phone over night. My wife did the same...until I "mounted" a charging cable onto her night stand and every time she puts her phone on the night stand, she notices the cable and charges the phone. 

Just like the Americans. People all around the world are logical and buckle up where they get in a car, but for some reason the Americans doesn't like being buckled up. We RoW cannot even try to understand that thinking. 

Very good point. First thing I do when I enter my car is to buckle up. Doesn't even require thinking, I just do it.

How about traveling? Airports all around the whole forbid carrying guns to an airplane, it doesn't mean everyone will obey, very often we read a news story about someone trying to bring a gun pass TSA.

 

We had such an ass in front of us once at Miami Airport. Due to him, the whole security checkpoint was shut down for an hour(!) and we almost missed the plane and didn't have time to eat something and do some shopping prior to the flight. Was pretty annoying.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

I mentioned this to a friend with a Tesla and he couldn't understand the issue at all. You park it up, plug it in, walk away. Always has a full charge whenever he uses it. Not a difficult habit to get into.

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1

DaveGordon:

I mentioned this to a friend with a Tesla and he couldn't understand the issue at all. You park it up, plug it in, walk away. Always has a full charge whenever he uses it. Not a difficult habit to get into.

Plug it in sounds great but...where?   

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

Few remarks and thoughts on this topic (in random order)

1. Convenience will increase over time with EV cars when technology and infrastructure gets improved (e.g. longer range, faster charging times and lot's of fast charging stations). As a stepping stone to full EV the hybrid tech. is really a great alternative the coming 5 years or so when considering new car purchase, especially if 1. you commute a lot in cities at low speed 2. your daily one way stretch to work is less than 20km 3. you have access to any kind of charging infrastructure at home or at work. Being able to run in silence and emission free in the city is a big bonus. And if the car can do about 50km on electricity alone that is great. When driving longer commutes the ICE engine is there for the convenience and eliminates range anxiety. Also our Mother Nature will absorb the co2 emission easier in non congested areas and running on motorways vs. commuting shorter trips in the city with cold starts etc. Even a customer who don't have charging capabilities at home can be in the market for a hybrid, but for sure is currently not in the market for a BEV due to the issues with limited charging stations if the car is parked on the street without access to charing in the near vicinity. Also if you live in a climate zone with winter a couple of months per year the issues with lower range on the batteries is still something that needs to be sorted and people today (most) are probably not prepared for the hazzle with charging for the longer commutes and vacations. The only viable option today is Tesla if the full BEV route is high on the  list, but this come at a very high price and with some known issues and limitations.

2. Everything that is sold right now (mass produced non super sports cars and collectors items) will more or less be "obsolete and old" in 5-10 years. So be it a normal combustion engine car, current BEV and also PEHV cars. So really there is nothing that is future proof and if you're looking for this car, it simply just don't exist and probably never will since technology evolve and things are getting better over time. If purchasing a car today with the intention of 2-5 year ownership there is actually no right or wrong. I think many of us in here don't purchase a Daily driver to own it for very long time and like to change cars rather often to get the latest and greatest. This does include not only the drivetrain but all the safety kit, improved sound systems, sound insulation, seats, etc. The question is then what type of car that is the best purchase TODAY if the intention is to keep it for let's say 3 years? For myself I think the PHEV makes most sense for my next DD since I drive lot's of shorter trips at low speed in the city and at the same time enjoy taking longer road trips a couple of times per year. Next DD purchase in 2020 will probably be a BEV. But time will tell and we have for sure an interesting development in front of us. The fact also that there are no smell and exhaust fumes when staring up the car in the garage is a big bonus. Same applies for car being at idle when for example waiting in the car to pick up the kids from school and can idle without having an engine on and still have a warm climate inside the car. With a PEHV today it is possible to run completely emission free where it is most important - in rural areas.

3. Plugging in the vehicle overnight (being a BEV or PHEV) is just a routine to get used to like anything else. I can't remember the last time I forgot to put my phone on the nightly charge. This is not to me at least an argument against EV at all and it is quite convenient to just plug the car in overnight when parking. Just make sure that the cable and eventual charger is conveniently placed and easy accessible in the garage. For a PHEV it is of course not an issue if the battery is on low charge since the petrol tank is there.

4. I've been lurking on Tesla forums and one thing that is quite fascinating is that most Tesla Model S/X buyers come from MUCH cheaper cars. There are very few who come from the expensive German luxury cars. Most Model X/S buyers seem to come from low end VWs, Volvos, maybe a BMW 320d with zero options and so on. So this is a category of buyers who normally would have spent about 30-50k EUR on a car and they are for sure not interested in cars as such and the car is more a tool for transportation from A to B. They tend to never have read a car magazine etc etc. BUT they gladly invest 100-150k EUR in a new Tesla which is about 3 times more than they earlier ever consider to spend on a car. This phenomenon is very interesting. So reading comments from Tesla Model S buyers that the car is amazing, most often comes from persons who never even sat in another luxury car in the segment and of course it is a nice upgrade from a 2007 Golf or Skoda. With this said Tesla has found a complete new category of buyers of their products that is not even in the market for a luxury sedan in the 100-150k segment. Of course there are exceptions to this, but in general it doesn't seem that many S-class, 7-series and Panamera customers are the ones who jump over to a Tesla Model S. Those customers tend to be loyal to the brand and will purchase a BEV when the technology and infrastructure is more hazzle free and mature.

lukestern:

4. I've been lurking on Tesla forums and one thing that is quite fascinating is that most Tesla Model S/X buyers come from MUCH cheaper cars. There are very few who come from the expensive German luxury cars. Most Model X/S buyers seem to come from low end VWs, Volvos, maybe a BMW 320d with zero options and so on. So this is a category of buyers who normally would have spent about 30-50k EUR on a car and they are for sure not interested in cars as such and the car is more a tool for transportation from A to B. They tend to never have read a car magazine etc etc. BUT they gladly invest 100-150k EUR in a new Tesla which is about 3 times more than they earlier ever consider to spend on a car. This phenomenon is very interesting. So reading comments from Tesla Model S buyers that the car is amazing, most often comes from persons who never even sat in another luxury car in the segment and of course it is a nice upgrade from a 2007 Golf or Skoda. With this said Tesla has found a complete new category of buyers of their products that is not even in the market for a luxury sedan in the 100-150k segment. Of course there are exceptions to this, but in general it doesn't seem that many S-class, 7-series and Panamera customers are the ones who jump over to a Tesla Model S. Those customers tend to be loyal to the brand and will purchase a BEV when the technology and infrastructure is more hazzle free and mature.

If correct, this would be a very interesting observation. As you write above, it would also explain a lot about some people's enthusiasm with their Tesla... It would also explain why people on this forum (just to name an example) have a rather negative view on Tesla on average.

MKSGR:

noone1:

Usability really an irrational fear for most. Anyone who lives in a house could easily be served by an EV. The problem is EVs are still too expensive.

Based on this logic most features in modern cars serve "irrational" fears (i.e. safety features like ESP; ABS, Airbag etc.). The risk of having an accident is far lower than the risk of overestimating the remaining battery power, just as an example to show that the logic you present is not quite logical 

That doesn't even make sense. ESP and ABS are often used. It just snowed 6 inches here. The ESP and ABS were constantly in use. ABS gets use all the time under heavy braking.

People don't have an irrational fear of accidents, it's just that in the event you do get in one, it's the difference between serious injury/death and walking away.

This is not in any way comparable to being afraid you can't live with 200-300 miles of range even though the daily usage is only 30 miles on average in the US.

noone1:

This is not in any way comparable to being afraid you can't live with 200-300 miles of range even though the daily usage is only 30 miles on average in the US.

"Average daily use" is not the same as "distance I would like to cover today". This makes all the difference, if you have a Tesla but cannot use it for a longer distance  

MKSGR:

noone1:

This is not in any way comparable to being afraid you can't live with 200-300 miles of range even though the daily usage is only 30 miles on average in the US.

"Average daily use" is not the same as "distance I would like to cover today". This makes all the difference, if you have a Tesla but cannot use it for a longer distance  

Buying a car for the few days per year you might "like" to travel excessive mileage doesn't make sense. You probably wish you have a pick-up truck a few days per year as well, or a large SUV, but that isn't a reason to buy a pick up truck or large SUV. When you know you need the mileage, you'll take 30 seconds to charge it the day/night before.

And again, a phone is not comparable to an EV because a phone doesn't last a week on a charge, it's isn't essential to the average day (like getting to work), and it can be charged everywhere.

Forgetting to charge an EV would be like forgetting to charge your phone for an entire week and knowing you don't have a charge with you ever.

If you can't remember once every few days to plug your car in as you exit it, especially when you should be doing it regularly out of habit just like anything else, then you probably have Alzheimer's.

I agree, it is difficult to forget to charge the ELV but even if you don't forget, it is a pain in the ass if you live in a condo for example and you park your car outside on the street. In Europe, most people park their cars outside on the street and there is basically no way to charge their ELV. There are so many infrastructure issues which will take decades(!) to be solved.

One example is the German power grid: Since most nuclear plants were shut off and the last ones will be gone soon as well, the power grid has become pretty sensitive to changes in energy supply because it is supplied by solar and wind energy and this happens in a pretty erratic way. Batteries with Mega Watts capacities are supposed to stabilize the system but still... Now imagine ELV mass transport and a suddenly and massively increasing charging infrastructure.

There are huge problems and I have the feeling that even ELV manufacturers are not really aware of them yet.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

When is the last time you got into your car at home and found out it was out of gas and had to call a tow truck or auto association?

I'm guessing probably never.

You get home and are almost out of charge you remember to charge it! It's not a guessing game. 

And yes there are a few days a year a large truck or similar would be nice but I don't buy one for those few times a year. Same goes for range. You can get ~400km from a Tesla on a full charge. Honestly anywhere further than that I'm flying regardless unless I'm doing  a full on road trip. I go to Ottawa and Montreal on a monthly basis and they are 450 & 550km away. I never drive. Ever. But the 5km drive from my house to my office? I do that every day. The 220km drive to our country place? At least twice a month. Why do I need more? 

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

noone1:

MKSGR:

noone1:

This is not in any way comparable to being afraid you can't live with 200-300 miles of range even though the daily usage is only 30 miles on average in the US.

"Average daily use" is not the same as "distance I would like to cover today". This makes all the difference, if you have a Tesla but cannot use it for a longer distance  

Buying a car for the few days per year you might "like" to travel excessive mileage doesn't make sense. You probably wish you have a pick-up truck a few days per year as well, or a large SUV, but that isn't a reason to buy a pick up truck or large SUV. When you know you need the mileage, you'll take 30 seconds to charge it the day/night before.

You write like a person that better uses a taxi than a car  Mostly short distance travels, with few exceptions...

I've lived most of my life in the suburbs of the US, so I'd imagine my travels are actually longer and further than yours on average. I'd have no problem living with 200-300 miles worth of range. I have never ran out of gas in my life, thus I can't imagine why I'd ever have an EV with no power left.

noone1:

I've lived most of my life in the suburbs of the US, so I'd imagine my travels are actually longer and further than yours on average. I'd have no problem living with 200-300 miles worth of range. I have never ran out of gas in my life, thus I can't imagine why I'd ever have an EV with no power left.

Then your statements are very funny (to put it mildly). I would never consider a Tesla given my driving habits. I would have to plan many trips in advance, so that I could stop for 30-45 minutes to recharge. That is a joke, if you ask me mostly for those who have no clue about cars  

So eat a sandwich, have a coffee, stretch your legs, and relax for 30 minutes. Hell, leave 30 minutes earlier. Why are you in such a hurry that 30 minutes is so unbearable that it's laughable?

It's crazy to me that someone could be in such a hurry to get anywhere, yet they are driving a car. What's waiting for you at the destination that's so time critical?

noone1:

So eat a sandwich, have a coffee, stretch your legs, and relax for 30 minutes. Hell, leave 30 minutes earlier. Why are you in such a hurry that 30 minutes is so unbearable that it's laughable?

It's crazy to me that someone could be in such a hurry to get anywhere, yet they are driving a car. What's waiting for you at the destination that's so time critical?

Very funny 

Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

And while waiting for a recharge - you can reflect on the poor suspension, steering, brakes etc. of the Tesla. This car is for some tech people from SF who have no clue about high-quality cars  The company will be finished sooner or later.

Carlos from Spain:

Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

Well, let's think about this for a minute:

Owning an EV means wasting 30 minutes of your day a few times a year when on long trips.
Owning an ICE means wasting time every time you need to fill up.

Who wastes more time over the life of ownership, the guy who can just plug his car in at home in 20 seconds, or the guy who actually has to stop or go out for fuel every week? Even if you live a mile away from the gas station it would take you 5-10 minutes every time you fill up. 

How about factoring in an oil change every month? That's gotta take at least 15-30 minutes.