Crown

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fritz said:

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SoCal Alan said:
It's about 7% to 8% sales tax here in California, depending on where you live. You guys in Europe should lower your taxes.

Yeh, sure. I'll get onto it as soon as I get back into the office after the weekend.

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Crash said:

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nberry said:

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pete r said:
Thanks for all of the feedback. I have been tracking some of the 430 and what they are selling for in the US and even used ones are comanding very high prices in the mid to high 200K. There was a post on this board a week or so ago and the gentleman posted the sticker of his new 430 and he said he got it for MSRP. Do I need to know someone in the buisness to get one for MSRP? Because if I can get a new "off the showroom" floor for 200k or so verses used at 50+ K more I would like to get one no one has ever driven.

Pete you need a relationship with a Ferari dealer. Otherwise you will never see the day when you buy a new one at MSRP. My understanding is in the US the 430 is sold out for the entire production whatever that may be 5-7years?

Ocean I sold a 360 Spider with 15,000 miles above MSRP. Also, why would i want to keep a car any longer?

Nick,

do the words CAR ENTHUSIAST ring the bell? If the car is really so much fun to drive, why sell it after 15.000 miles?

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nberry said:

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Crash said:

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nberry said:

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pete r said:
Thanks for all of the feedback. I have been tracking some of the 430 and what they are selling for in the US and even used ones are comanding very high prices in the mid to high 200K. There was a post on this board a week or so ago and the gentleman posted the sticker of his new 430 and he said he got it for MSRP. Do I need to know someone in the buisness to get one for MSRP? Because if I can get a new "off the showroom" floor for 200k or so verses used at 50+ K more I would like to get one no one has ever driven.

Pete you need a relationship with a Ferari dealer. Otherwise you will never see the day when you buy a new one at MSRP. My understanding is in the US the 430 is sold out for the entire production whatever that may be 5-7years?

Ocean I sold a 360 Spider with 15,000 miles above MSRP. Also, why would i want to keep a car any longer?

Nick,

do the words CAR ENTHUSIAST ring the bell? If the car is really so much fun to drive, why sell it after 15.000 miles?

Because a new one is more fun to drive.

Question; does a car enthusiast have to be car dumb?

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Freak 2 said:
Don't they pay TAXES on cars in THE MIGHTY US, which you ALWAYS LOOSE when selling ?????
We pay 21% + 5000 Euro BIV (Tax to put the car "In Traffic") !!!!!
Wasn't Nick THE GREAT FERRARI MAN, NOW it's very easy to understand WHY, they don't cost him ONE PENNY, instead he is MAKING MONEY in driving Ferrari's, WHAT A LUCKY BASTARD !!!!!
For me it's VERY CLEAR, if they would cost him big time, like they do here in Europe, he wouldn't drive ONE !!!!!
IMHO that's HOW FAR his FERRARI LOVE goes, playing "The Big Spender" WITHOUT spending ANY !!!!!
CONGRATS Man, you are one LUCKY GUY !!!!!

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pete r said:
Ok guys, I have a 996tt and love it, but have always wanted a 360. Anyone out there owned both? What can you add to my decision making. I do like to drive my cars, I am not one of those car owners that just let the car sit. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks

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When I trade in my CS for a 430, if the CS is worth $200,000 and the F430 cost $200,000 I pay zero tax.

For many US F-car salesman most of their time is spent "rotating" good customers in and out of new cars where the customer gets a new car every year or so for nothing (except for the interest if theres a bank note), even making money if the stars line up right. In the US if you can establish this kind of relationship with a dealer you're golden. But it's built upon trust from both sides and doesn't come along overnight. Much of it for a new customer and first car (if you want a new car at msrp) is based on waiting years in the beginning. But then once you have a car waiting for the next one (which wont take as long as the first) while you're enjoying the car you have isn't bad at all.

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OCEAN said:

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When I trade in my CS for a 430, if the CS is worth $200,000 and the F430 cost $200,000 I pay zero tax.

For many US F-car salesman most of their time is spent "rotating" good customers in and out of new cars where the customer gets a new car every year or so for nothing (except for the interest if theres a bank note), even making money if the stars line up right. In the US if you can establish this kind of relationship with a dealer you're golden. But it's built upon trust from both sides and doesn't come along overnight. Much of it for a new customer and first car (if you want a new car at msrp) is based on waiting years in the beginning. But then once you have a car waiting for the next one (which wont take as long as the first) while you're enjoying the car you have isn't bad at all.

I guess if you have this set up you need to make sure you take perfect care of the car and keep the miles very low ... so I see why you would also want the 911 so the Ferrari does not get driven that much ... " I am sure it is also very wise to really take care of your Ferrari sales guy if you know what I mean

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nberry said:

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OCEAN said:

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When I trade in my CS for a 430, if the CS is worth $200,000 and the F430 cost $200,000 I pay zero tax.

For many US F-car salesman most of their time is spent "rotating" good customers in and out of new cars where the customer gets a new car every year or so for nothing (except for the interest if theres a bank note), even making money if the stars line up right. In the US if you can establish this kind of relationship with a dealer you're golden. But it's built upon trust from both sides and doesn't come along overnight. Much of it for a new customer and first car (if you want a new car at msrp) is based on waiting years in the beginning. But then once you have a car waiting for the next one (which wont take as long as the first) while you're enjoying the car you have isn't bad at all.

I guess if you have this set up you need to make sure you take perfect care of the car and keep the miles very low ... so I see why you would also want the 911 so the Ferrari does not get driven that much ... " I am sure it is also very wise to really take care of your Ferrari sales guy if you know what I mean

Nothing could be further from the truth. The relationship with the dealer is strictly business and above board. I turn the car in to them when I am ready to sell. They have no concern regarding when I sell, the amount of miles on the car and its condition. They get their commission on whatever they sell.

Ocean, I know your trying to find fault with the arrangement but there is none. It is a win-win for the dealer and loyal customer.

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OCEAN said:
Ferrari should do something about that, so that REAL Ferrari buyers could buy their car at 'normal' prices ! I agree but is an Italian thing ....... I have a friend in Miami that paid 100K over sticker for one of the first 430 Spiders and he got it at the Ferrari dealer ... I could not believe the actual Ferrari dealer could do that . So one spider comes in and it goes out for 100K over sticker and then that same dealer a few weeks later lets one go to someone else for MSRP ( hard to believe that there is not some kind of somthing going on in that deal ) . I can see though that the way this may work well for the dealer is that he gets to sell the same car twice and those guys do not have that many cars to sell .

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Patriek said:

If it is a official dealer, than he is supposed to sell at MSRP, NOTHING more !!! He is a criminal in my eyes, NOT a businessman ! He should lose his contract with Ferrari.

Like I said, these guys are selling to a group of posers, who hardly uses the car, because they are afraid to loose some resale value. When resale prices should drop, these same posers, with their 'good, butt kissing relationship' should NEVER buy any Ferrari again ! (no matter what they say, they won't, at least 99%)

My dealer (one of the 4 official in Belgium) even sold a 430 to a guy who bought his FIRST Ferrai ever. AND the car was delivered together with mine and another, as one of the FIRST three 430's in Belgium, it was in januari. .... is that dealer dumb, NO, he sold the car to someone who really deserves one ! (the guy already had some faktory visits, loved Ferrari for a long time, .... and the dealer knew that). So my dealer is a REAL FERRARI dealer, not just a businessman, he sells the SPIRIT of Enzo !!!

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Patriek said:

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OCEAN said:
Ferrari should do something about that, so that REAL Ferrari buyers could buy their car at 'normal' prices ! I agree but is an Italian thing ....... I have a friend in Miami that paid 100K over sticker for one of the first 430 Spiders and he got it at the Ferrari dealer ... I could not believe the actual Ferrari dealer could do that . So one spider comes in and it goes out for 100K over sticker and then that same dealer a few weeks later lets one go to someone else for MSRP ( hard to believe that there is not some kind of somthing going on in that deal ) . I can see though that the way this may work well for the dealer is that he gets to sell the same car twice and those guys do not have that many cars to sell .

If it is a official dealer, than he is supposed to sell at MSRP, NOTHING more !!! He is a criminal in my eyes, NOT a businessman ! He should lose his contract with Ferrari.

Like I said, these guys are selling to a group of posers, who hardly uses the car, because they are afraid to loose some resale value. When resale prices should drop, these same posers, with their 'good, butt kissing relationship' should NEVER buy any Ferrari again ! (no matter what they say, they won't, at least 99%)

My dealer (one of the 4 official in Belgium) even sold a 430 to a guy who bought his FIRST Ferrai ever. AND the car was delivered together with mine and another, as one of the FIRST three 430's in Belgium, it was in januari. .... is that dealer dumb, NO, he sold the car to someone who really deserves one ! (the guy already had some faktory visits, loved Ferrari for a long time, .... and the dealer knew that). So my dealer is a REAL FERRARI dealer, not just a businessman, he sells the SPIRIT of Enzo !!!

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STRADALE said:

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Freak 2 said:
Don't they pay TAXES on cars in THE MIGHTY US, which you ALWAYS LOOSE when selling ?????
We pay 21% + 5000 Euro BIV (Tax to put the car "In Traffic") !!!!!
Wasn't Nick THE GREAT FERRARI MAN, NOW it's very easy to understand WHY, they don't cost him ONE PENNY, instead he is MAKING MONEY in driving Ferrari's, WHAT A LUCKY BASTARD !!!!!
For me it's VERY CLEAR, if they would cost him big time, like they do here in Europe, he wouldn't drive ONE !!!!!
IMHO that's HOW FAR his FERRARI LOVE goes, playing "The Big Spender" WITHOUT spending ANY !!!!!
CONGRATS Man, you are one LUCKY GUY !!!!!

You don't lose on taxes in NY.
When you're trading in a used car for a new car you only pay tax on the difference.
Or if the used car is worth the same as the new car you pay $0 tax.
ie) When I trade in my CS for a 430, if the CS is worth $200,000 and the F430 cost $200,000 I pay zero tax.

For many US F-car salesman most of their time is spent "rotating" good customers in and out of new cars where the customer gets a new car every year or so for nothing (except for the interest if theres a bank note), even making money if the stars line up right. In the US if you can establish this kind of relationship with a dealer you're golden. But it's built upon trust from both sides and doesn't come along overnight. Much of it for a new customer and first car (if you want a new car at msrp) is based on waiting years in the beginning. But then once you have a car waiting for the next one (which wont take as long as the first) while you're enjoying the car you have isn't bad at all.

This is not aimed at you Freak - But buying smart (if you're lucky enough) like Nick doesn't make someone any less of an Enthusiast IMO. I'm sure most people in the US if presented with the same opportunity would do the same thing. Or would you say - Charge me $50,000 for the depreciation anyway, I want to show how big a car Enthusiast I really am ? Doubt it.

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dhayek said:
i agree with patriek ,but nevetheless what nick said is also true , cars allowances dont compensate for the operating expenses...same here..

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nberry said:

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If it is a official dealer, than he is supposed to sell at MSRP, NOTHING more !!! He is a criminal in my eyes, NOT a businessman !

Why do you say that? Surely it's not criminal. Is it contrary to the arrangement between the factory and the dealer?

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Patriek said:
The dealers are supposed to sell the cars to people who don't flip the car for a profit.

Honestly Nick, would you buy a 430 if you know there is not sutch a resale profit ...

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STRADALE said:
Dealers shouldn't sell to customers that immediately flip the car around for profit. There are people out there that have bought new F430/F430 Spiders that have listed their cars for sale immediately after delivery. My dealer black lists anyone that does this. If you take possesion of a car and then put it on the market right after delivery you cannot buy another car from them. On the other hand their good customers will enjoy their cars for a year or so and trade in for a new one.

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MKSGR said:

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STRADALE said:
Dealers shouldn't sell to customers that immediately flip the car around for profit. There are people out there that have bought new F430/F430 Spiders that have listed their cars for sale immediately after delivery. My dealer black lists anyone that does this. If you take possesion of a car and then put it on the market right after delivery you cannot buy another car from them. On the other hand their good customers will enjoy their cars for a year or so and trade in for a new one.

Sorry, I disagree.

I do not think there is a major difference between a customer who sells after 12 months and a customer who sells after 12 days.

Why? Because most of those who sell after 12 months would not do so if economies would work out differently (i.e. if there was substantial depreciation).

Ferrari should put customers selling after 12 months on the black list as well: No real enthusiast would sell a built-to-order Ferrari after such a short period of time (except the car had too many bugs). Also, a longer holding period might support the official dealers due to higher service revenues.

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Patriek said:
To be honest,
I now have my 430 for about 9 months, I could NOT imagine I should sell it in about 3 months, NO WAY ! what should I have to buy, .. a spider maybe ? what else ???? and next year, if there isn't anything new ... what do you do than ??

The worst thing of all, is that a lot of you guys are even chosing the car in matter of resale (red/tan, not so mutch options ...)
Look at Nicks 430, (red/tan) he has already sold it, and he dindn't took delivery of his new one .

Sorry, like MKSGR says, Ferrari should put you guys on the black list, and for sure choose some serious dealers, like we here in europe have !