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    Sep 21, 2005 2:34:13 PM

    RCA
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    This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Since I'm not sure the 997 Turbo S will be the right car for me (two little kids, not much time to drive it, etc.), I was somehow looking for an acceptable alternative.
    I was looking today at a 997 Carrera 4 S Cab (yep, the new 4WD with the big butt ) with my favorite options like powerkit, PCCB, carbon, etc. Now you should have seen my face when I looked at the final price tag: 142500 Euro, not much different than a "naked" 997 Turbo S is supposed to cost next year. And the 997 Turbo S already has the PCCB and other "goodies" on board.

    I'm not sure Porsche does the right thing regarding the base price and options prices. Something is wrong. If a 997 C4 S Cab costs the same as a Turbo S with comparable options, I must say that I'm pretty shocked.

    So right now, I think I'm back to my 997 Turbo S order but although I know that a 997 Turbo S will be pure fun, I'm not so sure this is the right car for me RIGHT NOW. I need a fun car mostly for spring/summer time and with two additional seats in the rear for the kids. So maybe the C4 S Cab would be a nice alternative but for the same money, I prefer the Turbo S. I don't want to feel sorry afterwards.

    Sorry for my ranting but I thought I might share my thoughts with you because going for a 997 Turbo or even Turbo S may be more interesting for some of you than paying the same money or even more (compared to the Turbo for example) for a C4S/Cab.

    Sep 21, 2005 2:37:02 PM

    Raz (NC)
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    RC, I've been wondering the same thing. It is not too hard to get a 997S (or C4S Cab) into the pricing range that I've heard the 997TT and 997TT S will be in.

    Is it possible that our expectations for the next-generation Turbo's pricing may be too low? Will we see something priced more along the lines of Ferrari's F430 for the next Turbo?

    Sep 21, 2005 2:47:02 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    RC -- the turbo IS the car for you. you know it. there's no alternative (at least not in PAG's portfolio ). i'm not sure that the "S" badge is that important since the 996 turbo S was just "X50 and PCCB come as standard". maybe it'll be different this time with more distinctive "S" features (my guess: quad pipes like 997 S or 993 TTS).

    and why a convertible? it's sure no fun for the kids in the back to drive with the roof down. rear seat space is even limited. and if you want to go for a topless drive with your wife, take the boxster.

    porsche pricing and options is another story...

    Sep 21, 2005 2:48:26 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Raz (NC)

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    Raz (NC) said:
    RC, I've been wondering the same thing. It is not too hard to get a 997S (or C4S Cab) into the pricing range that I've heard the 997TT and 997TT S will be in.

    Is it possible that our expectations for the next-generation Turbo's pricing may be too low? Will we see something priced more along the lines of Ferrari's F430 for the next Turbo?



    I heard from an UNOFFICIAL source that there will be a 5% price increase compared to the "old" 996 Turbo and Turbo S. I hope this source is right. The "old" 996 Turbo S was 141000 Euro incl. 16% german VAT. If the new 997 Turbo S is priced over 150000 Euro incl. VAT, I'm backing off. This is the MAXIMUM I can afford through my business (leasing, monthly rate, etc.). But some people should definetely think VERY WELL when they order a fully equipped C4S/Cab because the 997 Turbo may be closer than they think. Of course a Cab is a Cab but I don't know, I think I would always prefer the 997 Turbo over a 997 C4S Cab, even with powerkit. But of course it always depends...

    Sep 21, 2005 2:48:26 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: Raz (NC)

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    Is it possible that our expectations for the next-generation Turbo's pricing may be too low? Will we see something priced more along the lines of Ferrari's F430 for the next Turbo?



    manual F430 is EUR 138,000 (146,000 F1) in germany.

    no options really necessary. full leather and full emotion come as standard.

    Sep 21, 2005 2:53:08 PM

    OCEAN
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    Reply to: Raz (NC)

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    The turbo S Cab will be a lot more than 140.

    Sep 21, 2005 3:00:09 PM

    Alex18_996CC Offline
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices





    manual F430 is EUR 138,000 (146,000 F1) in germany.

    no options really necessary. full leather and full emotion come as standard.



    I would go for a f430 manual tranny right now, then sell it within a year or so, and buy the 997turbo S if the 430 doesn't give you what you want, which I doubt it

    Just saw the other day a 430 spider F1 the interior is awesome, the steering wheel is very small and well the engine was like heaven.....but still I am a porschist!!

    Sep 21, 2005 3:00:45 PM

    Flevio
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Is it possible that our expectations for the next-generation Turbo's pricing may be too low? Will we see something priced more along the lines of Ferrari's F430 for the next Turbo?



    manual F430 is EUR 138,000 (146,000 F1) in germany.

    no options really necessary. full leather and full emotion come as standard.



    Here in italy the price of all f430 has increased of 6000 Euro !! There have been an increase also in Germany?
    However i think it's not possible that a 4s cabrio can cost as a turbo s! I don't remember the price of a well-equipped 996 4s cabrio, but i think it wasn't the same as the price of a 996 turbo s.

    Sep 21, 2005 3:12:41 PM

    SoCalHoosier
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    RC... you are feeling the same feelings I have been feeling for the past few years. The options/pricing for Porsche is just flat out ridiculous.

    It reminds me of the extended warranties that electronic stores sell you... basically it will be worthless later but it is a means for them to maximize profit.

    Sep 21, 2005 3:24:35 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    manual F430 is EUR 138,000 (146,000 F1) in germany.

    no options really necessary. full leather and full emotion come as standard.



    There has been a price increase in September. F430 F1 is now 152.600, increase of the manual should be around the same.

    Concerning options I can fully agree. Only thing to consider is CCM brake for a whopping 14.000.

    Sep 21, 2005 3:29:52 PM

    Sidney
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    Reply to: Flevio

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    @RC

    Your way of pricing is a little bit strange

    If you add 40k extras (Carbon etc.) to your C4, you have to add min. 30k to a naked TTS too, to have the same extras.

    Otherwise it is a "milkgirlinvoice" (english for runaways)

    Gregor

    Sep 21, 2005 3:34:56 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: Sidney

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    I'd say the issue RC was commenting about was the fact that PCCB and X51 alone already contribute with 20k to the impressive bill. The car itself is slightly above 100k if I'm correct. So it ends up with 15 to 20k of options which won't be entirely necessary for the TurboS!

    What's the reason for the price increase at Ferrari? Oilprices going up?

    Sep 21, 2005 4:04:10 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    This is something I have definitely thought about.
    I am in the same situation as you are, with my options list, I am pretty sure the upcoming GT3 will be cheaper. But at the end of the day, I have thought about this, it is C2S I would rather have for several reasons, even over a Turbo actually.
    End of the day, like you wrote, you need to figure out what you want.
    One other thing to remember is that you have to put the same options on a 997 Turbo S to compare. Maybe PCCB comes as standard, but Porsche is super stingy when it comes to standard equipment, the only thing the Turbo might have on top of the 997S is full leather interior and Bose and we all know that it's not even full leather, you need to pay at least another 3000 to 5000 euros if you want the WHOLE interior covered with leather Ferrari style.
    ALso you should compare a C4S/cab with a TurboS/cab, not coupe. I am sure the cab will appear sooner or later.
    Don't get a C4S/cab RC, you'll be disappointed, it won't be as good to drive as your C2S with sport chassis (remember the sport chassis is not available on cabs).
    IMO, the turbo will be much faster than the na 997S but again, heavier and possibly the problem of being "too perfect". I think a 2WD 997S or a GT3 will be more "playful" than a TurboS which is more like a point and shoot missile.
    And finally, I agree with Zzoba about cabs, great to drive top down but it'll be a nightmare if you have the small ones in the back, rear seats are uncomfortable (they're upright compared to the coupe) and that means you won't able to put the windshot which means you'll have a hurricane inside the cockpit at speeds above 160 kmh, trust me, I've had many outtings at four in the car with the 996!
    Cabs are great for cruising and your Boxster S can do that perfectly and more...

    Sep 21, 2005 4:04:17 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    What's the reason for the price increase at Ferrari? Oilprices going up?


    Typical Ferrari rip-off-price-philosophy...

    Sep 21, 2005 4:05:12 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: Sidney

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    Sidney1 said:
    Otherwise it is a "milkgirlinvoice" (english for runaways)



    Sep 21, 2005 4:06:07 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    The powerkit is what's bringing the price up.

    Love the idea of the convertible. My kids love it. They say it feels like a roller coaster and hearing them laugh and holler in the back having so much fun is priceless. I don't get that reaction from a coupe. I know how they feel. Especially when I hear you say - "I need a fun car mostly for spring/summer time". The last 4 months with my convertible have been amazing. The difference between having a really nice, fast car and a really nice, fast convertible to enjoy the weather is so huge.

    Sounds like a Turbo cab (non S) (maybe w/ PCCB's) would be perfect for you. You'd get even more power and prestige than the 4S cab w/ the powerkit AND you'd get the convertible w/ many of the features already on board standard that you would order w/ the 4S cab.

    Sep 21, 2005 4:31:39 PM

    WBH
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    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Smart business tactics on part of P....allows buyers w/differing budgets to buy a taste of P....offering everything from a simple 997 w/an RMS-prone motor and Toyota-like plastic interior to a 997TTS w/a less RMS-prone motor, which can be spec'd w/F-like leather/deviated stitching interior (but comes std w/a plasticky interior for those on a budget).....and prob will (eventually) have a $15K optional DSG tranny

    F has figured out this game as well...the price delta btwn a base 430Coupe (w/"girlie"/non-CCM brakes, retro bucket seats and a traditional manual) and a fully loaded 430Spider is roughly $75K....and a loaded 430CS will prob cost $85K above a base 430Coupe....

    Sep 21, 2005 4:38:24 PM

    OCEAN
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    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    I feel kind of strange reading all this getting ready to give a dealer a deposit on a 140K C4S cab loaded ... I just can not imagine waiting for the Turbo s cab . Wish there was just a 997S Cab I could pick up quick for the turbo S cab wait but they are just not around with the right options .

    Sep 21, 2005 5:28:46 PM

    igzaklee
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    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Selective pricing and customization has really taken the industry into a whole new echelon these past couple years--

    The permutations could drive you crazy!!

    I agree with STRADALE, 997 turbo cab (base) will delightfully surprise you RC by meeting your stated prerequisites for spring/summer drives w/family~~

    Sep 21, 2005 5:43:32 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: igzaklee

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    igzaklee said:
    Selective pricing and customization has really taken the industry into a whole new echelon these past couple years--

    The permutations could drive you crazy!!

    I agree with STRADALE, 997 turbo cab (base) will delightfully surprise you RC by meeting your stated prerequisites for spring/summer drives w/family~~



    Depending on the size of the nippers and length of the journey but jmo but I would and have said this ..

    911 seats are a bit of a after thought in truth , and had I no son then I would of gone all the way but on the options side yes you can get close to the turbo and you do start to think hang on I shall wait ..

    JMO..

    throt..

    Sep 21, 2005 7:57:01 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:

    What's the reason for the price increase at Ferrari? Oilprices going up?



    As much as it pains me to write this, I believe Ferrari has succumbed to Porscheitist. Though it is not as egregious as Porsche(Porsche makes a ton of money and Ferrari does not)nevertheless I believe a little greed is creeping into Ferrari.

    Sep 21, 2005 8:47:02 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Ferdie said:

    What's the reason for the price increase at Ferrari? Oilprices going up?



    As much as it pains me to write this, I believe Ferrari has succumbed to Porscheitist. Though it is not as egregious as Porsche(Porsche makes a ton of money and Ferrari does not)nevertheless I believe a little greed is creeping into Ferrari.



    Rumor is F is considering an IPO, thus the aggressive push to quickly pump out 430s and get the new 600 out, to have interesting financials to show as a free-standing entity....

    If car cos. are investing revenues back into R&D/capex, etc to develop/build interesting new cars, who cares what car prices are??? Today's cars are downright cheap per unit of performance/usability/safety vs cars of 10-15 yrs ago.....

    Sep 21, 2005 8:51:44 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    RC said:

    I'm not sure Porsche does the right thing regarding the base price and options prices. Something is wrong. If a 997 C4 S Cab costs the same as a Turbo S with comparable options, I must say that I'm pretty shocked.




    That is why I think that we should expect the worst regarding the pricing of 997TT and TTS: Porsche will most likely make sure that there is an appropriate price gap between the regular and the turbo 997...

    Sep 21, 2005 9:02:51 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    I'd say the issue RC was commenting about was the fact that PCCB and X51 alone already contribute with 20k to the impressive bill. The car itself is slightly above 100k if I'm correct. So it ends up with 15 to 20k of options which won't be entirely necessary for the TurboS!

    What's the reason for the price increase at Ferrari? Oilprices going up?



    BTW: I would not go for the Powerkit in a Carrera 4s. For 12.000 Euros you improve 0-200kph acceleration by a second or so. I.e. you do 0-200 in 16 seconds rather than 17 seconds (see the latest AutoZeitung test of the 997 4s convertible for the latter figure).

    Honestly, whether you do 0-200 in 17 seconds or 16 seconds does not make a big difference. You are still far away from the very best (997TTS) and also from many others (996TTS, Gallardo, F430 etc.)...

    Sep 21, 2005 9:09:59 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Guys,

    It's supply and demand, and all car manufacturers try to price their cars and options so as to maximize return-on-sale without minimizing the number of units sold from higher prices to yield the highest profit margin.

    I obviously don't advocate higher prices, but most of us on this forum clearly have some understanding of money to be able to acquire the assets to afford these cars, so why should we act astonished when the carmakers intensify their attempts to profit from our business?

    Some of the other members of this forum who work in the automotive industry may have more detailed info., but my impression is that high-end sports car makers are becoming more sophisticated at both operations management and marketing.

    RC,

    You obviously need to budget your car purchase in the context of your family's financial goals, but if a NA 997 with the options you want (coupe or cab) is nearly as pricey as a 997TT (S or non-S, coupe or cab), then the NA car I bet will disappoint you. But of course you must confirm in your mind that you are willing to pay up to 150,000 EURO for ANY car, no matter the make, model and specs. Is your cold-feet sentiment purely financially driven or are there safety issues (a turbo in the hands of a father of 2) or other rumours re. the 997TT itself?

    Sep 21, 2005 11:36:36 PM

    peecarfan
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    basic economics dictates that both Porsche and especially ferrari can price wherever they want to. with virtually zero inventory on 997s dealers have come a long way from the oversupply and huge discounts on the 996's
    ferrari dealers on the other hand won't even take a deposit on the 430 and didn't on the 360 unless you are a prior customer ( buy a used vehicle from them and keep it serviced for a while to get in the club, and then _maybe_ we can get you a car)
    If I was ferrari, I'd keep on raising prices to the moon on the hot cars. why let the dealers and speculators have all the fun
    porsche now has waiting lists so why not whore up the got to have cars

    Sep 21, 2005 11:56:16 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Ferdie said:

    What's the reason for the price increase at Ferrari? Oilprices going up?



    As much as it pains me to write this, I believe Ferrari has succumbed to Porscheitist. Though it is not as egregious as Porsche(Porsche makes a ton of money and Ferrari does not)nevertheless I believe a little greed is creeping into Ferrari.



    Rumor is F is considering an IPO, thus the aggressive push to quickly pump out 430s



    Sadly, this is not the case. For a variety of reasons deliveries on the 430 are spotty and slow. I read somewhere that Ferrari is negotiating with the union to get them to work on weekends. My Spider is presumeably being built as this moment but no one at Ferrari can tell me at what stage it is in. Therefore I can only assume the order is in their system. I can only pray I see my car before Christmas.

    Sep 22, 2005 12:25:15 AM

    WBH
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Ferdie said:

    What's the reason for the price increase at Ferrari? Oilprices going up?



    As much as it pains me to write this, I believe Ferrari has succumbed to Porscheitist. Though it is not as egregious as Porsche(Porsche makes a ton of money and Ferrari does not)nevertheless I believe a little greed is creeping into Ferrari.



    Rumor is F is considering an IPO, thus the aggressive push to quickly pump out 430s



    Sadly, this is not the case. For a variety of reasons deliveries on the 430 are spotty and slow. I read somewhere that Ferrari is negotiating with the union to get them to work on weekends. My Spider is presumeably being built as this moment but no one at Ferrari can tell me at what stage it is in. Therefore I can only assume the order is in their system. I can only pray I see my car before Christmas.



    Perhaps F has become smart enough to prioritize production of cars like $250K Spiders and $300K 612s and 575SA's w/all the cool, high-margin options...and that are being airshipped to US (gotta maximize revs and profits before any possible IPO)...or are bigger serial F buyers getting build slots that put smaller customers' builds on-hold?.....

    Seriously, from what I hear, guys are getting their cars on-sched/ahead of sched.....may want to chk around to make sure your dealer is getting you appropriate priority at the factory/FNA....

    Sep 22, 2005 2:19:38 AM

    DaveC
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Very interesting discussion. In a sense Porsche makes one pay for one's taste twice. The more individualized the car the more it costs up front and this becomes, potentially, a largely non-recoverable cost at resale or trade. This same argument translates throughout the Posche line. I cannot imagine X51 adding 16K USD (it's purchase cost) to the resale, so from a purely economic standpoint it ranks along with the purely cosmetic choices. The fact that Porsche can equip a PCA Club Coupe with X51 and other options for 99,911 says something about its actual cost (and perhaps value) whereas the option price reflects the intangible choice of exclusivity (which has no intrinsic equity). When it comes to Porsche options perhaps we should heed the advice of Lao Tzu: "Ruling a large kingdom is like cooking a small fish, neither should be overdone"

    Sep 22, 2005 5:37:13 AM

    Thoma Offline
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    Reply to: DaveC

    Re: This is CRAZY...options and prices

    Well said...
     
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