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    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    hamilton93 said:
    I was actually asking as a good friend on the East coast wants to buy the Vette and mothball it as an investment, he's a huge US muscle car fan and i have to say his 65 355 charger turns more heads then any P or F car.

    Cheers,



    So your friend wants to make an "investment" that will depreciate 20% the minute he purchases it? Humm, tell your friend to contact me, as I can sell him a few good investments.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    hamilton93 said:

    I was actually asking as a good friend on the East coast wants to buy the Vette and mothball it as an investment, he's a huge US muscle car fan and i have to say his 65 355 charger turns more heads then any P or F car.



    Your friend may be better off buying a 66 or 67 427 Vette than a new one.....the volume will be too great for the new ones to be worth something in 40 years. Ask 69bossnine, he would know.......he's got the biggest garage of all of us.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    hamilton93 said:
    did not expect this to stir up the emotions as it did, i was just looking for the numbers but here in Nor-Cal porsche's are fairly common. Porsche's are the i have just made a bunch of money from my startup (996s and 997s) or wanna be's in boxers (sorry IMO)

    I was actually asking as a good friend on the East coast wants to buy the Vette and mothball it as an investment, he's a huge US muscle car fan and i have to say his 65 355 charger turns more heads then any P or F car.

    Cheers,



    may also have something to do with the fact that its probably louder than any stock P or F car & the type of sounds those old cars produce aren't really heard anymore

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    hamilton93 said: ...i have to say his 65 355 charger turns more heads then any P or F car.


    Not familiar by what you mean when you say "355 charger". Please explain. tia

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    355 refers to the cubic inches of the engine which is actually 354 but it produces a whopping 355HP, it's a Hemi-V8 and it sounds amazing

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    Damian said:
    Cartouche, you are too funny.
    Gotta go, my wife --donning rucksack apron--says pancakes and sausage are ready!


    Mine says french fries and chocolate for the breakfast are ready ! Finishing her sixteenth beer of the early morning ...

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    hamilton93 said:
    355 refers to the cubic inches of the engine which is actually 354 but it produces a whopping 355HP, it's a Hemi-V8 and it sounds amazing

    They stopped making the 354 cu in hemi around 1956 when it was enlarged to 392 cu in which was built thru 1958. The next hemi that was introduced was the 426 cu in engine with 425 horsepower.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    hamilton93 said:
    355 refers to the cubic inches of the engine which is actually 354 but it produces a whopping 355HP, it's a Hemi-V8 and it sounds amazing

    They stopped making the 354 cu in hemi around 1956 when it was enlarged to 392 cu in which was built thru 1958. The next hemi that was introduced was the 426 cu in engine with 425 horsepower.




    Ding ding ding.... You are correct sir!!!

    Hamilton93, your memory might be failing you a bit on that '65, you may want to get a refresher from your friend.

    In any case, I've mothballed a ton of new cars, but not really for "investment" purposes, more for "collector's illness syndrome".

    The roll-of-the-dice aspect of the deal is whether the car will EVER outpace inflation, along with storage and maint. and insurance costs.

    There's two ways to "invest" on these cars. Extreme short-term and extreme long-term. Anywhere in-between, and you'll lose your shorts..

    Extreme short-term involves finding a dealer that will sell for a decent price, and then to quickly "flip" the car to a higher-paying buyer for a profit. Just visit the back pages of AutoWeek to see all the short-term profiteer-wannabe's at work.

    Extreme long-term means buy the car and wait...... at least two decades.... maybe longer.... for the car to raise up in value in a manner that might, hopefully, maybe, exceed the inflation-adjusted original investment.

    Quite honestly, I don't see it happening on the new Z06. They're going to make a ton of 'em, and a bunch of wealthy guys will be doing the same thing your buddy is. And besides, I GUARANTEE, that Chevy will build an even hotter mouse-trap in years to come, basically bumping this car to second-tier status. The only cars that really beat the test of time, are the extreme low-production ones, and the ones that are unique for their time, and once extinct, never came back (like my brand-new Buick GNX). The Corvette will ALWAYS be around. Just look at the old ZR-1's. They used to be "King of the Hill", now, a box-stock C6 would destroy a ZR-1. As such, anybody who bought a new ZR-1 for sticker price, would take an awful hosing if they go to sell it, today, tomorrow, or whenever...

    We buy cars because we love them, not because It's my retirement plan. However, we've done it smartly enough, and the market is hot enough, that we're still looking damn good!!

    The first trick is to NOT buy the thing right off the dealer's lot. If you plan to collect long-term, then it's stupid not to be patient. You wait for some OTHER Schmoe who bought the car new, to get cold feet, or different priorities, and they sell the car after it's a year or two or three or whatever old and has depreciated a ton. That's where the SMART collector jumps in and takes advantage of the ignorant collector's misfortune/misjudgement.

    That said, I've bought a few new cars, new, and put them away. But they were cars that were so limited-production, I feared that if I didn't get in while the iron was hot, that I would be hard pressed to find the right car down the road. I bought my '95 Cobra R-model new, for instance, only 240 ever produced, and you had to have a professional racing license to purchase the thing. No regrets there, but even still, the market value on it is no better than what I paid for it, so it's a money-loser from a purely investment standpoint. But that's not why I bought it. And 20 years from now, the pendulum could swing WAY to may favor as the values of 25+ year-old cars start appreciating rapidly.

    That's the deal, you either get in and get out fast, or you get in for the long 25+ year haul. And it's VERY difficult with more modern cars to predict what will be gold (Buick GNX), and what will not (Corvette ZR-1).

    Suffice it to say that nobody would have ever dreamed that 66-71 Mopar Hemi cars would be valued like they are today, having taken such a sharp and exponential increase in the last two years. It took 30+ years for that story to completely unfold.

    Put away a new Z06? Sure, if you dig the car.... Investment??? Maybe, but will he be able to live that long, to realize a return on the investment?? And in my opinion, the new Z06 will just get soiled by the next new Z06. 50's and 60's Corvettes are incredibly valuable because of their BEAUTY and brawn. Their styling is iconic, and valued not just as machinery, but as REAL ART. The new cars just have brawn, they'll always be ugly and cheaply appointed ducklings. They will never be valued as art, and will always be worth less than the "bargain" $65K purchase price. Which is, by the way, one hell of a wild ride for $65 grand, kudos to the engineers!! But it's not a full driver's package for the more discerning among us. It's more of a bragging-rights car for people who get off on being able to brag of such things. The people who just love an obcenely fast car will also buy them, but they'll have their fun, and then move on and sell....

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    69bossnine,

    Based on your criteria above what comtemporary American cars have a better chance of ever becoming classics in this era of mass production? Perhaps a Viper ( first generation? ) might be a good bet especially at the current low prices one could pick one up? the new Ford GT? any of the Panoz variants? and how about foreign and easily available in the US? something like an Aston Vanquish?

    Thanks,

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    1st gen Viper? Maybe the coupes, but not the first RT-10 convertibles. The styling has not held up well, the interiors were awful, and the driving dynamics fairly foul. And now, with the more attractive and powerful and real-deal convertible modern Vipers, and with C6's that can toast a 1st-gen Viper, I think they'll be remembered as the 1st..... but the worst. I don't see prices moving up on those.

    New Ford GT?? Yes, a great bet, but not if you were one of the bozos who had to be the first one on the block, and paid $200K +++ just to get one. The GT40 is a rolling work of automotive art, inside and out. Even under the bonnet is eye candy, the way the frame and the chassis were assembled. It's a collectible just sitting there, AND, it is a dynamically world-class driver. In short, it'll always be remembered as a shining star, it will NOT likely be improved upon with a next-generation car (which is what smokes the 1st gen Viper), so it's one of those short-lived iconic future collectibles, like the Ferrari Daytona was. Good choice, but I don't know whether it will be a really money maker. That's almost always impossible to predict.

    Panoz? Mmmmm, that's tough. That's just tough. Maybe...., but I think that Panoz needs to build more dominant racing pedigree if they're cars are going to build in status, a la Ferrari...

    Foreign exotic cars always seem to "come around", as long as the styling is timeless and wonderful. Most are, especially recent Astons, Ferraris, Bentleys, and Merc roadsters. The great thing about Euro exotics, is that they fall so far, before they shoot so high. There's always a "dark period" in their resale value that you can pick up a real exotic for Corvette money, and then just enjoy and wait. Just hope that you don't have to repair anything!! LOL!!!

    In cheaper more pedestrian stuff, I think that all things Saleen will be a great bet. He's no Carroll Shelby, but what he did with Mustangs, racing and building street cars, is very similar to what Carroll did with Mustangs.

    Here's the caveat though. There has to be a START and an END to an ERA, followed by a DARK AGE, for a generation of cars to make a leap into the higher realms of collectibility. Otherwise, cars just evolve, and they will just be forgotten used cars, replaced by better and faster cars.

    20's and 30's cars like Duesenburg and Minerva and Rolls attained their immortal status, in part, due to the depression and World War II. Cars like that would never be seen again, causing them to become historic and prized artifacts.

    The 60's muscle car craze today would not exist, if the cars had not gone extinct in the 70's and early 80's. Those old muscle cars were slow and poor handling compared to today's better iron, but that doesn't matter. The 70's and 80's sealed their fate as a genre of auto that we'll never see again, due to their UNREFINED and bare-knuckle appeal. They represent a bygone, and much loved and reminisced era. My 997S does almost 190 mph, and runs 12's in the 1/4, but it doesn't make the hair on the back of your neck stick up on end like a big-block muscle car shaking at idle.

    So, what I'm getting at, is that this current golden age of performance has to CHANGE somehow, such that there are defined bookends to a generation of cars that we loved and will never see quite the same again. Hybrids and alternative fuels may be what seals this fate. Or, regardless of technology, just fuel prices alone may send up into another 70's-like lull where factories drop high-performance cars due to low demand, low profits. Or maybe styling will get all fouled up again. In any case, this current era has to END somewhere, if the great cars within it are to become priceless immortals. If it doesn't end, then we just keep evolving into better and more powerful and more beautiful machines, and the old ones are just older, older looking, and under-performing compared to the new. They have no emotion or romance to go with them, that you get when an era goes extinct.

    Deep stuff, eh?

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    I would suppose that one of the cars in your stable is one of the 857 1969 Boss 429 Mustangs and what color might that be?

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Wow, very nice explanation! Thanks.
    We might just be coming to this era's end with gas prices rising so increadibly fast? Time will tell. I personally think that right now would still be a good time to pick up a used contemporary Ferrari and have fun with it and see what happens in the next few dozen years, something relatively low production such as an F550? modern, fun, reliable and somewhat rare? Prices are really down on them, also Daytonas are relatively inexpensive at this point. Anyway, nice to dream! If I had the money I would buy a Ferrari 275 GTB and have it for myself, just a beautifull machine!

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    Fred 993C4S said:
    ...any of the Panoz variants?
    Thanks,



    Panoz! You mean hopped-up mustang with new sheet metal (or carbon fiber)? I see several every week... They're built just five miles from my company. Not that impressive IMO.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    red911 said:
    I would suppose that one of the cars in your stable is one of the 857 1969 Boss 429 Mustangs and what color might that be?

    His GNX is even rarer. My memory says they only made 547 of them.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Team corvette has done very well at LeMans and Sebring and proven that the car is truly an amazing performer. The Z06 is an absolutely incredible machine. Unfortunately, as has already been posted, the issue is mainly image.

    If I were looking for a cellectible, I'd consider a GT3 (especially RS), and I'd hold on to it for a long time.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    red911 said:
    I would suppose that one of the cars in your stable is one of the 857 1969 Boss 429 Mustangs and what color might that be?




    The ONLY color, of course.......... RAVEN BLACK!!!

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    And the front

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    And the GNX... BTW, you guys are spot-on with your production #'s

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    ... are those cars all yours????
    if you don't mind me asking, how many do you own?

    or if you dont want it public knowledge, you could PM me the answer

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Our collection is a mix of cars owned personally by me (the Boss 429, for instance, I own personally), cars owned personally by my father, and cars JOINTLY owned by us through our business (such as the GNX), that we are equal partners in. In total, between the two of us, we've got right at 150 vehicles.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    from what i can see in the photos, you must have a mighty fine collection

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S




    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Are you in the auto biz so you can deduct all of those .

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Our collection is a mix of cars owned personally by me (the Boss 429, for instance, I own personally), cars owned personally by my father, and cars JOINTLY owned by us through our business (such as the GNX), that we are equal partners in. In total, between the two of us, we've got right at 150 vehicles.



    congratulations - and lucky you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Our collection is a mix of cars owned personally by me (the Boss 429, for instance, I own personally), cars owned personally by my father, and cars JOINTLY owned by us through our business (such as the GNX), that we are equal partners in. In total, between the two of us, we've got right at 150 vehicles.



    So, your father is Jay Leno?

    Is this a salient issue?

    Is it me or what? Just LOOK at the Corvette and it's from a different world. Way tooooooo in-your-face macho looking. Looks like a kid's version of a hot car. Sorry.

    What's worse? If you look at Ferrari or Lambo, THEY pull no punches as far as radical design is concerned. THEY are outrageous and look GREAT (i.e sophisticated, refined, intelligent) looking outrageous.

    The Corvette looks like a Ferrari or Lambo design made out of a bar of soap and then used once or twice. IOW, Corvette's design is "dumbed down" radical. If you glance at it, it looks cool for a second, then you realize it's been "tamed" in a bad way. Tamed, and then added-to so it results in a mish-mash that can be consumed by a mass American car mentality... .

    my 2 cents

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    And the GNX... BTW, you guys are spot-on with your production #'s

    I can't help it. Numbers stick in my head whether I want them to or not....like 532 1953 Eldorados, 630 1957 Bonnevilles, etc., but if my wife asks me to bring home a gallon of milk, I can't remember that for 5 minutes.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Sorry for the confusion i just checked on the date friend's 355 charger and i transposed the year, it is a 1956 355 so thanks for the catch, can't imagine with the 425hp sounds like.

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    And the GNX... BTW, you guys are spot-on with your production #'s

    I can't help it. Numbers stick in my head whether I want them to or not....like 532 1953 Eldorados, 630 1957 Bonnevilles, etc., but if my wife asks me to bring home a gallon of milk, I can't remember that for 5 minutes.



    Maybe she should ask you to bring home 532 gallons of milk!

    Re: Vette Z06 vs 997S

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    So, your father is Jay Leno?



    You're not too far off, Ferdie!

    Jay Leno wishes he were his father!

     
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