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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bobr:

    RC - I would caution on the Model 3 as there have been some quality and finish problems with this car. 

    It was just a thought, I know...there is a German EV car rental/lease company who is currently in a fight with Tesla because of quality and other issues and they have a nice YouTube channel "documenting" all this stuff. It is pretty embarrassing for Tesla but they don't seem to care.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I, too, am thinking about an EV, but waiting to see the Macan EV and the Audi EV products.  While an EV won't replace my 911, I share your thoughts about an  EV as a daily driver for around town and short trips. 


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Just curious. Have you driven the Model 3 Performance yet? If not, I bet you will be please rly surprised. I think it’s a lot more engaging then the Model S. Of course it’s not comparable to the 911. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I am very interested in a Taycan, but will probably wait for an S version.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I had a go in the Jaguar I-Pace. Super impressed. Petrol cars are dead except as a hobby.


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Petrol cars will be around for many years to come.  EV sales are tiny now, and will increase, but gradually.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Wonderbar:

    Petrol cars will be around for many years to come.  EV sales are tiny now, and will increase, but gradually.

    None of my regular friends or people I know have an EV or plan to get an EV.

    In my neighborhood, there is not a single EV. In a very wealthy neighborhood near-by, there is one Tesla P100D I saw.

    In Germany, you barely see EVs, maybe some Teslas here and there but nothing more. I saw one Audi Etron in Munich a couple of months ago, nothing to write home about.

    There are a few EV rentals available from our local power company, mostly Renaul Zoe I think but this is it.

    I doubt that petrol engines are dead but yes, EV sales will increase over time, no doubt but I doubt we are going to see a very high EV ratio over the next couple of years.

    Everything comes down to the price and cost: If I can get a Tesla 3 Performance for 500 EUR a month (lease), I will definitely get one but if not, I can get an Audi RS3 for 400 EUR per month. Smiley 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Wonder how long governments are able to favor the Ev's and hybrids? I'm looking to get into the new 745e hybrid: zero € taxes in Belgium. For a 3 liter, 6 cylinder, 300+ bhp luxury boat/car, crazy. yes


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Markets are very different from one region to another .

    In my small town , I can not count the number of Tesla 's . Literally everywhere  .   A number of my friends have one and when talking about EV , most people plan to get one at some stage .  I am starting to see some e-trons and for sure , as soon as the Taycan will be available , it will be the '' car to have '' . 

    Last month sales of Tesla in Switzerland is 835 units .  For a population of 8 million . 

    Congested high income regions , big cities  and china will move fast into EV 's . 

    Rural, low income  or regions influenced  by nationalist car manufacturer preferences will take longer . 

    But most people I know , who tried them in suburban areas , like them ( as a mean of transport ) 

    Not so many people are petrol heads anymore ...... 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I think the strong car industry in German has been able to hold off the majority of the EVs until they were able to develop their own. In the Netherlands, where we don't have much car industry and a lot of political correctness, EVs have flourished under beneficial tax regulations. When I look at the management parking lot of the company I work for, these are all EVs or Hybrids (E-tron, Tesla, Volvo Hybrid models). During my 15m daily commute, I always see at least 10 Tesla's.

    As mentioned, this is a result of a huge government pressure for people to buy electric cars by means of insane tax reductions. These reductions were successful to the point that they are not sustainable, and are being reduced already.

    This poses a problem, since up till now, the only EVs are either very cheap and low "status" models like the Zoe and the like, or relatively high status models such as the Tesla and the e-tron. A lot of the people buying tesla's, are people who were driving normal lease cars like Peugeot, Volkswagen, Renault, Volvo, etc. These people have been seduced into ordering Tesla's, which were comparable in price/tax only because of the beneficiary regulations. A lot of these people are already running into trouble because of the reduced benefits for EVs, so there might be a decline in "fresh" EVs on the road here in the coming years, until the industry offers EVs in all price/status ranges.


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Where I live in Munich I have four public chargers on the other side of the street. In the beginning they were nearly used. Nowadays at least three of them are in use when I come home. Different brands (VW Golf, Volvo SUV, Tesla, BMW i3, BMW 5, Panamera, Prius …).

    I have a young (mid 20s) software developer in my team who spent a lot (relative to his income) of his money in cars (Audi TT RS, other V8 Audis). Since August he has an eTron, he says no more petrol cars for him

    A friend changed from his M4 (company car) to i8.

    At least people who live in the city and have at least the average income are moving to EV/Hybrids. Times they are changing


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I agree that EV market penetration is very location dependent.

    In my commuting to and from the office, Teslas are EVERYWHERE.  There were quite a few to be seen in the days when only Model S and Model X were available.

    Now that the Model 3 has arrived, one can almost always see a Tesla of some sort in traffic without having to look very far.  Even if I live and work in upscale areas, it is still quite a phenomenon. 


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Some more real world EV stuff on my e-Tron smiley

    Past few months the e-Tron had been strictly a city car, and literally is the school run car every morning.

    For the 8km round trip, it was using 2-3% of charge for the trip, and when full the car indicated ~370-390km of range.

    Last couple days we have a cold front and morning temperature is just above freezing, the fully charged indicated range drops to 329km, literally what Audi rated it with the government and the 8km drive takes 4-5% of the charge.

    I would imagine Audi, or the whole of PAG, rates their EV car range in the worse case scenario, instead of someone else where they rated it to go in a very optimistic way.


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Not a bit surprised that Audi would take a conservative tack toward providing expected range to the EPA.  That strategy reduces initial buyer remorse as Volkswagen Group is playing the long game to EV adoption.  Still not sure that countries like the United States will adopt EVs at rates similar to that of Norway and still believe that petrol powered vehicles will exist for the next several decades here.  Metropolitan areas within the States definitely lead in EV adoption with Teslas being the most widely seen EV.  However, Audi e-trons are becoming more visible on the streets of Chicago and even near the weekend home.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    https://www.autoblog.com/2019/10/07/volkswagen-audi-electric-car-platform-licensing/

    Before long, VAG might have the EV market all by themselves, or at least majority of the products will be based on their platforms.

    I wonder why Tesla didn't try to license their platform? Or they did tried but no one wants it. 

    But at this point in time, the Tesla platform is last generation and the 800V VAG platforms are the future.

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy: 

    But at this point in time, the Tesla platform is last generation and the 800V VAG platforms are the future.

    Yes, at this point. Tesla probably have a few cards up their sleeves too, but I doubt they will be able to keep up with the VW Group in mid to long term.

    As awkward as it must sound, I am very excited to see the EV developments in the next 2-3 years.

    As a petrol head there is always space for a petrol car in the garage, but everything else can and will go EV. 


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Just an anecdotal comment, which is not meant to be any type of scientific conclusion. But my family just took a 400 mile drive up a major interstate between two major US cities. During that drive, I counted exactly one Tesla model S and one model 3 on the road. The other thousands of other vehicles were almost 100% petro driven—compact SUVs, sedans, light and heavy trucks and buses.  While I certainly understand that the EV segment in cities is greater, I think one needs to be realistic about the speed of the “EV revolution“. 

    Also, I counted exactly one Porsche 911, one Cayenne, one Macan and two Corvettes. One could perhaps generally conclude that the EV and sports car segments constitute a tiny proportion of the general number of vehicles on the road.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bluelines:
    Whoopsy: 

    But at this point in time, the Tesla platform is last generation and the 800V VAG platforms are the future.

    Yes, at this point. Tesla probably have a few cards up their sleeves too, but I doubt they will be able to keep up with the VW Group in mid to long term.

    As awkward as it must sound, I am very excited to see the EV developments in the next 2-3 years.

    As a petrol head there is always space for a petrol car in the garage, but everything else can and will go EV. 

     

    It doesn't quite matter what Tesla has in their closet, the 400V system is a dead end, and if they cling to it, it will also be the end of Tesla. 

    There is nothing 400V system can do that 800V system can't do better, it's like the carburetor vs fuel injection revolution. Sooner or later Tesla has to redesign their system to be 800V to keep up.

    Tesla's strength is their batteries, or the chemistry of their batteries. They have the most powerful mix, and also have the highest energy density compared to other chemistry used by others. But it's also Tesla's greatest weakness. The powerful chemistry is also the most volatile, prone to overheat and needed constant monitoring to keep them in check. Calling them the nitro-glycerin of battery is not wrong. They are also one reason Tesla's Superchargers can only do brief peak charging and had to ramp down the charging curve rapidly to preserve the batteries. The Superchargers are advertised with a fantastic peak number, but those numbers are literally peak, and the sustained number is much lower. The e-Tron with it's 400V system but different chemistry mix, can do a much longer and higher sustained charge rate; the MIsson E's 800V basically using the same battery chemistry and also do a longer and higher sustained charge rate. 

     

     


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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Porsche extends electric sports car model range with the Taycan 4S

    It was only in September that the new electric sports car from Porsche celebrated its high-profile premiere on three continents simultaneously. Now, the company is already presenting the third version of the sports saloon with the Taycan 4S.

    10/14/2019

    The new model is available with two battery sizes and delivers with the Performance battery up to 390 kW (530 PS; combined electrical power consumption 24.6 kWh/100 km; combined CO2 emissions 0 g/km) or with the Performance battery Plus up to 420 kW (571 PS; combined electrical power consumption 25.6 kWh/100 km; combined CO2 emissions 0 g/km). Following the Taycan Turbo S and the Taycan Turbo, the Taycan 4S is therefore the new entry-level model in the series. A single-deck Performance battery with a total capacity of 79.2 kWh comes as standard. The two-deck Performance battery Plus familiar from the Taycan Turbo S and Taycan Turbo is optionally available. The total capacity here is 93.4 kWh.

    The power output and range therefore vary correspondingly: with the Performance battery, the Taycan 4S generates up to 390 kW (530 PS) overboost power output. Equipped with the Performance battery Plus, it delivers up to 420 kW (571 PS). In both variants, the Taycan 4S accelerates from a standing start to 100 km/h in 4.0 seconds. The top speed is also 250 km/h in both cases. The range is up to 407 kilometres with the Performance battery and up to 463 kilometres with the Performance battery Plus (in accordance with WLTP in each case) – the highest value of the current Taycan range. The maximum charging capacity (peak) is 225 kW (Performance battery) or 270 kW (Performance battery Plus).

    Innovative drive machines and dynamic performance

    Breathtaking acceleration, tractive power typical of sports cars and outstanding continuously available power – the new model 4S also features these strengths of the Taycan. The permanently excited synchronous machine on the rear axle has an active length of 130 millimetres and is therefore exactly 80 millimetres shorter than the corresponding drive component on the Taycan Turbo S and Taycan Turbo. The pulse-controlled inverter used on the front axle in the Taycan 4S operates with up to 300 amps, and the inverter on the rear axle with up to 600 amps.

    With two permanently excited synchronous machines on the front and rear axles, in other words all-wheel drive, as well as a two-speed transmission on the rear axle, the drive architecture comprises the same main technical highlights as on its model brothers. The same also applies to the intelligent charging management and exemplary aerodynamics. With a cd value from 0.22, the aerodynamics makes a significant contribution to low energy consumption and thus long range. The clear, puristic exterior design with Porsche DNA is also typical for the Taycan, as is the unique interior design with wide display band.

    Puristic exterior design with Porsche DNA

    With its clear, puristic design, the Taycan signals the beginning of a new era. At the same time, it retains the unmistakable Porsche design DNA. From the front, it looks particularly wide and flat with highly contoured wings. The silhouette is shaped by the sporty roof line sloping downward to the rear. The highly sculpted side sections are also characteristic. The sleek cabin, the drawn-in rear C-pillar and the pronounced shoulders of the wings result in a sharply emphasised rear, typical of the brand. There are also innovative elements such as the glass-effect Porsche logo, which has been integrated into the light bar at the rear.

    Distinguishing features of the Taycan 4S compared with the Turbo and Turbo S include the aerodynamically optimised 19-inch Taycan S Aero wheels and the red-painted brake callipers. The front apron with new geometry, side sills and rear diffuser in black ensure further visual differentiation. LED headlights including Porsche Dynamic Light System Plus (PDLS Plus) are equipped as standard.

    Unique interior design with a wide display band

    The cockpit also signals the start of a new era with its clear structure and completely new architecture. The free-standing, curved instrument cluster forms the highest point on the dashboard. This places a clear focus on the driver axis. A central 10.9-inch infotainment display and an optional passenger display are combined to form an integrated glass band in a black-panel look.

    As standard, the Taycan 4S comes with a partial leather interior as well as front comfort seats with eight-way electrical adjustment.

    The interior of the new Taycan 4S

    With the Taycan, Porsche offers an entirely leather-free interior for the first time. Interiors made from innovative recycled materials underscore the sustainable concept of the electric sports car.

    Centrally networked chassis systems

    Porsche uses a centrally networked control system for the Taycan chassis. The integrated Porsche 4D Chassis Control analyses and synchronises all chassis systems in real time. As standard, the Taycan 4S features adaptive air suspension with three-chamber technology including electronic damper control PASM (Porsche Active Suspension Management).

    The Taycan 4S has six-piston fixed-calliper brakes on the front axle with internally vented cast iron brake discs. The brake disc diameter is 360 millimetres on the front axle and 358 millimetres on the rear axle. Four-piston brakes are used on the rear axle. The brake callipers of the brake system are painted red.

    The Taycan 4S can be ordered immediately and will arrive in European dealerships in January 2020.

    Link: https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2019/products/porsche-taycan-4s-electric-sports-car-entry-level-model-18901.html


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Now we're talking...the Taycan 4S has a base price of 105607 EUR, this is now a more interesting price range. 

    I configured one, ended up with around 140k with all the options I want (incl. the performance battery). Not bad.

    Performance is 0-100 kph in 4.0 seconds, and 0-200 kph in 12.9 seconds. Not stellar but pretty OK for such a car.

    I think the 4S will be actually the car people will choose most, especially since it already delivers 571 hp with the overboost.

    Tesla is dead, they just don't know it yet. angry


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:

    Now we're talking...the Taycan 4S has a base price of 105607 EUR, this is now a more interesting price range. 

    I configured one, ended up with around 140k with all the options I want (incl. the performance battery). Not bad.

    Performance is 0-100 kph in 4.0 seconds, and 0-200 kph in 12.9 seconds. Not stellar but pretty OK for such a car.

    I think the 4S will be actually the car people will choose most, especially since it already delivers 571 hp with the overboost.

    Tesla is dead, they just don't know it yet. angry

    The range of 450km+ is also significantly better than with the turbo/turbo s Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Taycan 4S is definitely the model I will look at.  Interesting to note that a number of Tesla owners have deposits on the Taycan. 


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Cool overlay comparison

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Autos/comments/dhrttq/tesla_model_s_vs_porsche_taycan_handling_test/

     


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bobr:

    Taycan 4S is definitely the model I will look at.

    ...and so RT went electric Smiley

    This is the model I will consider too. 


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Same here, but this time considering a lease - burned my fingers too much with the Tesla. I got an invite for test-driving the Taycan at Hockenheim in November and will happily report my (almost useless) impressions.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bluelines:
    bobr:

    Taycan 4S is definitely the model I will look at.

    ...and so RT went electric Smiley

    This is the model I will consider too. 

    The Electric GT3 killah indecision


    --

     

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

     

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bluelines:
    bobr:

    Taycan 4S is definitely the model I will look at.

    ...and so RT went electric Smiley

    This is the model I will consider too. 

    I will keep my ICE 911. Smiley

     


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Porker:

    Cool overlay comparison

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Autos/comments/dhrttq/tesla_model_s_vs_porsche_taycan_handling_test/

     

    what a difference! Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    schmoell:

    Same here, but this time considering a lease - burned my fingers too much with the Tesla. I got an invite for test-driving the Taycan at Hockenheim in November and will happily report my (almost useless) impressions.

    Well I for one I'm really looking forward to your impressions given that I think you have been one of the most objective here regarding EV's, and also you have a fair bit of experience with Tesla to be able to compare Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    the-missile:
    bluelines:
    bobr:

    Taycan 4S is definitely the model I will look at.

    ...and so RT went electric Smiley

    This is the model I will consider too. 

    The Electric GT3 killah indecision

    Zzzapp! ⚡️😄


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


     
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