Crown

lukestern:

RC:

noone1:

How do you know what is capable with EVs if there are no EV sport cars? 

I would never buy an EV sportscar because it sounds like crap. Even if it goes 0-300 kph in five seconds. 

You will RC. You just don't know it yet. When you try one out in a few years you'll get converted.

RC has had like one good sounding car in his entire life. He's just looking for excuses.

noone1:

Dude, you've owned maybe one good sounding car in your entire life -- your current R8. You've been driving shitty sounding Porsches since I can remember...

Other than my 991.1 Turbo S and my wife's Porsches, I do not remember driving any shitty sounding Porsche, sorry.  If you want to provoke, I can do the same: What car did you drive lately? I still consider you a fraud and you know that.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

OK, so what great sounding cars have you ever actually owned? I really don't remember anything... your R8 is probably the only one that would ever even be noticeable driving down the street.

RC:

noone1:

It won't make economic sense for European car manufacturers to try and stay ICE when the ROW goes to EV. Europe will simply have to adapt and build the infrastructure to support the new normal.

ROW is not the US or China.   Also, China has a long way to go and if they subsidize electricity cost and whatnot, it won't be comparable. European manufacturers can build EVs for the US and China but in Europe, it will take more than a decade to change things. Unless manufacturers and governments start to subsidize a switch, this is a different story. Not going to happen though in my opinion, not now.

China is 30 million of a 73 million industry.   Now add parts of the EU pushing for EVs as well as California mandating it, and the dynamics of the market shifts, regardless of consumer preferences.   

TRC:

noone1:

Dude, you've owned maybe one good sounding car in your entire life -- your current R8. You've been driving shitty sounding Porsches since I can remember...

Other than my 991.1 Turbo S and my wife's Porsches, I do not remember driving any shitty sounding Porsche, sorry.  If you want to provoke, I can do the same: What car did you drive lately? I still consider you a fraud and you know that.  

RC:

lukestern:

RC:

noone1:

It doesn't matter if they're talking about them or not. In 10 years soon they'll be the majority of cars that are for sale, thus irrelevant as to whether there is interest in them or not.

I doubt it. The industry builds what people want and buy. Right now, especially in Europe, electricity is expensive, the charging infrastructure basically non-existent and there are no (interesting enough) incentives to get an EV. On the contrary, right now many people are exchanging their Diesel cars for petrol cars, so in 10 years, we are going to drive the same old stuff, at least in Europe.  Tesla sales have dropped by over 30% in Germany (maybe because incentives were gone...they came back now but just for the rudimentary base models).

It is about money and convenience and right now, EVs suck. At least in most regions on this planet.

People buy what is available. EVs are not available from the German brands yet, because they don't want to push them right now only for economic reasons. Car dealerships focus on the negative aspects of EVs and this is the story they tell their customers.

When Tesla 3 comes to Europe it will sell like hot cakes. Just wait and see. It will happen.

Yeah, same as other EVs in Germany.  

Now I don't follow... Now you say that EVs will sell well in Germany? But it's when the German brands have something to offer, right? But in the sentence before you said that people are not interested in EVs. How are you going to have it?

And btw, Electricity is much more expensive in Germany compared with most other European markets. In Norway for instance running an EV is about five times cheaper than running on petrol and diesel.

Yup, I'm a fraud because I don't feel the need to spend $500K on a bunch of car I don't want. Instead of driving the Lamborghini that you actually want, you stretch your budget over $500K cars that you don't.

RC:

noone1:

It doesn't matter if they're talking about them or not. In 10 years soon they'll be the majority of cars that are for sale, thus irrelevant as to whether there is interest in them or not.

I doubt it. The industry builds what people want and buy. Right now, especially in Europe, electricity is expensive, the charging infrastructure basically non-existent and there are no (interesting enough) incentives to get an EV. On the contrary, right now many people are exchanging their Diesel cars for petrol cars, so in 10 years, we are going to drive the same old stuff, at least in Europe.  Tesla sales have dropped by over 30% in Germany (maybe because incentives were gone...they came back now but just for the rudimentary base models).

It is about money and convenience and right now, EVs suck. At least in most regions on this planet.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

I'd dump the blame on expensive electricity to dumb fucks called German politicians, who are afraid of nuclear so hard it's comical. Also, this plays for the petrol powered cars in two ways: as long as Central Europe burns coal at the current rate, no one is too keen on introducing decisive restrictions on traditional cars and their usage. Diesel is an outlier, mainly due to political reasons.

noone1:

Yup, I'm a fraud because I don't feel the need to spend $500K on a bunch of car I don't want. Instead of driving the Lamborghini that you actually want, you stretch your budget over $500K cars that you don't.

In reality, there is a difference between want and need.

RC has a family and a job.  He needs family transportation, and a low key car to go to work.

noone1, we know you like to provide opposite opinions, and it is mostly entertaining when I read your post daily.  But at least you should argue within reality.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

noone1:

Yup, I'm a fraud because I don't feel the need to spend $500K on a bunch of car I don't want. Instead of driving the Lamborghini that you actually want, you stretch your budget over $500K cars that you don't.

It is not quite like that. RC doesn’t buy cars, he leases them and mostly when they have big lease incentives... So technically he doesn’t “sit” on $500k of cars. Lambo doesn’t have subsidized leases...

He drives a 2017 Cayenne S Diesel and a 991.2 GTS Cabrio... 

He'd have the car of his dreams if he could tolerate being seen in a normal SUV LOL

RC:

Sorry but I just don't see the benefits of EVs...  They sound bad, range is very limited (not the biggest problem in my opinion), charging time sucks big time and performance is flawed since they go fast straight line but otherwise...

I am a car nut and a gadget lover but EVs don't attract me a bit. Zero. 

To most, less sound is actually a huge bonus... Charging time is already adequate unless you are in a rush or drive long distances, and handling performance is lower because no sport car builder has done a sporty EV YET.

Once the Germans will have decent EV on the market, German mentality will flip really fast. Right now they are just protecting their interest. Human nature. Also eventually employers will offer charging stations at office parking lots, government might even impose it to boost the charging network.

noone1:

He drives a 2017 Cayenne S Diesel and a 991.2 GTS Cabrio... 

He'd have the car of his dreams if he could tolerate being seen in a normal SUV LOL

Sorry but driving a RAV4 and a McLaren makes no sense.

Um, why not? SUVs are beaters for me. My dog threw up and stained the carpet in the Rav4, the windshield was just cracked, and it drives through corrosive salt 6 months of the year, my dogs drool and scratch it up when they go for rides. Such vehicles are tools. They provide utility more than anything. 

How much does dog vomit depreciate a Porsche interior?

How would I know and why would I care? Everything cleans up. Put the dogs in the trunk and buy a plastic liner... Like you said, daily driver cars are tools, Porsche or not. I drive my RR and Porsche SUVs for 4 to 6 years and trade them in and don’t really care if they got beat up or not in the interim. They are tools, just nicer ones you spend a lot of time in so it is worth to me to spend extra money vs having an ultra performance car you rarely use or cannot share with the kids. Thus the mention of having a RAV4 and a McLaren makes no sense. I would rather drive a Macan and a used 911 convertible and save some cash in the process.

The difference is that the SUV becomes obsolete and not-nice very quickly compared to cheap stuff since that kind of technology moves very quickly. The brand new G-Class has an inferior infotainment system than the new A-Class. And then 12 months from now some new SUV from Toyota will have self-driving sensors that the $150K G-Class doesn't. If you just buy cheaper cars more often, you end up having better cars more often.

You pay largely for exotic style when you buy an exotic, and those looks don't show up every 12 months in new $30K cars. However, all the technology in a high-end SUV shows up in new $30K car constantly. The technologies that makes an SUV daily driver nice are ones that aren't terribly expensive.

Here's the rear view mirror in the new 2019 Rav4. Does the new Cayenne have this? The new Rav4 also supports Alexa. Does the new Cayenne support Alexa?

There is nothing in a car today that is so much better than what I have in my 4 years old Macan that would make me get any new car. Alexa? I don’t really even use Siri... The only thing that would fancy me would be Waze integration in CarPlay (which Apple refuses to allow) and safe quasi autonomous driving which does not exist yet IMHO, and of course a really good EV crossover like the Macan EV could be. With daily drivers you could go two ways: you buy something really nice and keep it for 4-7 years and get to drive a nice good car, or you get garbage with the latest tech and change every 2-3 years but in the end you still drive a very average car. To each his own...

To each their own, I would not buy a soulless transportation pod just because it has a nicer "infotainment" or is "talking to Alexa".

A Yugo sounds better then the best electric "car".

noone1:

Here's the rear view mirror in the new 2019 Rav4. Does the new Cayenne have this? The new Rav4 also supports Alexa. Does the new Cayenne support Alexa?

  woahh, forget how it handles, it's performance, it's interior quality, or how down right fun it is to drive... just what I always wanted in a car has finally come true, and LCD mirror!... does it have Tetris or animojis?... gonna run out tomorrow first thing and get me a Toyota!! 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

SciFrog:

There is nothing in a car today that is so much better than what I have in my 4 years old Macan that would make me get any new car. Alexa? I don’t really even use Siri... The only thing that would fancy me would be Waze integration in CarPlay (which Apple refuses to allow) and safe quasi autonomous driving which does not exist yet IMHO, and of course a really good EV crossover like the Macan EV could be. With daily drivers you could go two ways: you buy something really nice and keep it for 4-7 years and get to drive a nice good car, or you get garbage with the latest tech and change every 2-3 years but in the end you still drive a very average car. To each his own...

Guess that's where we differ. A Cayenne/Macan is just a very average car IMO.

Carlos from Spain:

  woahh, forget how it handles, it's performance, it's interior quality, or how down right fun it is to drive... just what I always wanted in a car has finally come true, and LCD mirror!... does it have Tetris or animojis?... gonna run out tomorrow first thing and get me a Toyota!! 

 

That's why we have sports cars and exotics though...  If I cared about the performance, why would I be driving an SUV in the first place?

Interior quality is subjective. I found my grandma 1993 Cadillac to have more comfortable seats than any high-end SUV I've sat in recently. Dunno why, maybe it's satety or just penny pinching, but car seats used to be way more cushy and plush.

Hope Mission E will come sooner then later. Panamera looks weired compared to Continental.

AM

The Panamera does look bland compared to the rest. 

AP911:

The Panamera does look bland compared to the rest. 

Typical Porsche DNA, reflective upon a fifty year old model.   Hope the Mission E can introduce an updated design language.

noone1:

Um, why not? SUVs are beaters for me. My dog threw up and stained the carpet in the Rav4, the windshield was just cracked, and it drives through corrosive salt 6 months of the year, my dogs drool and scratch it up when they go for rides. Such vehicles are tools. They provide utility more than anything. 

How much does dog vomit depreciate a Porsche interior?

This is the difference between me and you: For me, there are no soulless beaters. Every car has to mean something to me. I realized this the most with my wife's Cayenne S Diesel (I thought I would like it, Cayenne...monster torque...), I basically refuse to drive this car anymore. Same goes to my Mini JCW, can't wait to give it back to the lease company. The traction issues drive me nuts, I only like the car for the size and parking.

So even a beater needs to be fantastic for me, otherwise I wouldn't get it. You are not a car guy, sorry to say that. People with petrol in their blood always get something special, even if it is a beater. Doesn't have to be something very expensive or exotic but special. The RAV4 would be a car I wouldn't even look at, let alone drive it. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

absent:

A Yugo sounds better then the best electric "car".

Another example: My son played Gran Turismo Sport yesterday evening, he was trying the new Audi EV race car. This car is lightning fast in the game, especially acceleration but after 15 minutes or so, he got bored. Why? It sounds like crap, basically only an electric whining. He switched to his beloved tuned Nissan GTR and GT3 RS again. I know, I know, this may be a stupid comparison and argument but I think it still proves a point.

As a side note (just in case someone here is working for the developing company of Gran Turismo Sport): The new game is crap. My son hates it. Biggest problem seems to be that some of his favorite cars are missing but also the fact that you cannot tune the cars anymore. By tuning I mean adjusting/adding/removing parts, not just parameters (now). The tuning feature was one of the nicest and most beloved things of Gran Turismo, why did they remove it? Idiots.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

noone1:

Um, why not? SUVs are beaters for me. My dog threw up and stained the carpet in the Rav4, the windshield was just cracked, and it drives through corrosive salt 6 months of the year, my dogs drool and scratch it up when they go for rides. Such vehicles are tools. They provide utility more than anything. 

How much does dog vomit depreciate a Porsche interior?

This is the difference between me and you: For me, there are no soulless beaters. Every car has to mean something to me. I realized this the most with my wife's Cayenne S Diesel (I thought I would like it, Cayenne...monster torque...), I basically refuse to drive this car anymore. Same goes to my Mini JCW, can't wait to give it back to the lease company. The traction issues drive me nuts, I only like the car for the size and parking.

So even a beater needs to be fantastic for me, otherwise I wouldn't get it. You are not a car guy, sorry to say that. People with petrol in their blood always get something special, even if it is a beater. Doesn't have to be something very expensive or exotic but special. The RAV4 would be a car I wouldn't even look at, let alone drive it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC, I tend to agree with a lot of your posts, but here I can't. If I had the choice of racing a true racecar 10 weekends a year, against driving a Toyota Yaris the rest of the time, I would do this in a heartbeat. Does that exclude me from being a car guy ??   

tso:

RC:

noone1:

Um, why not? SUVs are beaters for me. My dog threw up and stained the carpet in the Rav4, the windshield was just cracked, and it drives through corrosive salt 6 months of the year, my dogs drool and scratch it up when they go for rides. Such vehicles are tools. They provide utility more than anything. 

How much does dog vomit depreciate a Porsche interior?

This is the difference between me and you: For me, there are no soulless beaters. Every car has to mean something to me. I realized this the most with my wife's Cayenne S Diesel (I thought I would like it, Cayenne...monster torque...), I basically refuse to drive this car anymore. Same goes to my Mini JCW, can't wait to give it back to the lease company. The traction issues drive me nuts, I only like the car for the size and parking.

So even a beater needs to be fantastic for me, otherwise I wouldn't get it. You are not a car guy, sorry to say that. People with petrol in their blood always get something special, even if it is a beater. Doesn't have to be something very expensive or exotic but special. The RAV4 would be a car I wouldn't even look at, let alone drive it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC, I tend to agree with a lot of your posts, but here I can't. If I had the choice of racing a true racecar 10 weekends a year, against driving a Toyota Yaris the rest of the time, I would do this in a heartbeat. Does that exclude me from being a car guy ??   

Nobody racing a true race car for 10 weekends a year would get a Toyota Yaris as his daily beater. I know a guy who drives in semi-pro races and owns a Smart. For the city. I never understood him, until I realized that he owns around a dozen(!) cars total and usually uses the Smart only for the city when he needs to park without any major stress. He hates the car but enjoys the perks of stress-free parking with the car. Didn't know that, until I asked. Actually not much different from my hate/love relationship with the Mini JCW. Great for the city but otherwise, I just cannot connect to this car. Drove an older Mini JCW for a week once (loaner from dealer) and enjoyed it much more, they "watered down" the new one, it doesn't feel like a small racer anymore, too refined (which can be good but not for me). For a "refined" car, it just has those annoying traction issues. I would accept them on a small racer but not on this one.

You don't need an exotic to be happy. Take a VW Golf R, a Renault Megane RS, a Macan GTS, whatever suits you but I cannot imagine someone driving super sportscars with all his heart in it and then switching to a RAV4 and liking it. This is nuts.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Then I am just not a car guy