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    Sep 13, 2005 7:45:05 PM

    lavaman23
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    Cayman S = Disgrace

    After building a Cayman S with a few essential goodies on the Porsche website, I was astonished that after adding a few bits and pieces you wouldn't get much change from Pounds50k. I think this is absurd price to pay as you can quite easily get yourself a 996 TT/mk1 GT3.

    I have come to the conclusion that the car is waaayyy overpriced. My PoundsPoundsPounds will be used to fund a purchase of a 996 TT or GT3 thankyou very much.

    Plus, with news that BMW will be bringing out the Z4 coupe, with an M version possibly round the corner, I would have to say the BMW could smoke the Cayman especially if they slot a V8 with 400bhp...

    as a Porsche lover I hate criticising Porsche but I think the Cayman really is a cynical matketing exercise designed to give potential customers a right royal shafting up the number 2.

    Sep 13, 2005 11:47:15 PM

    KMM
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    Reply to: lavaman23

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Ah yes! "... right royal shafting up the number 2." Nothing beats the Queen's English...

    Sep 14, 2005 12:26:38 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: lavaman23

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    lavaman23 said:
    After building a Cayman S with a few essential goodies on the Porsche website, I was astonished that after adding a few bits and pieces you wouldn't get much change from Pounds50k. I think this is absurd price to pay as you can quite easily get yourself a 996 TT/mk1 GT3.

    I have come to the conclusion that the car is waaayyy overpriced. My PoundsPoundsPounds will be used to fund a purchase of a 996 TT or GT3 thankyou very much.

    Plus, with news that BMW will be bringing out the Z4 coupe, with an M version possibly round the corner, I would have to say the BMW could smoke the Cayman especially if they slot a V8 with 400bhp...

    as a Porsche lover I hate criticising Porsche but I think the Cayman really is a cynical matketing exercise designed to give potential customers a right royal shafting up the number 2.


    Well, I understand your position and I heartily support your decision to spend your money on an older car (especially the GT3 MkI). However, I don't think that the Cayman S is any more of a ripoff than any other new car they make and it is less of a ripoff than several...

    Sep 14, 2005 3:33:07 AM

    DaveC
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Pay and Play. Don't Pay, Don't Play.

    Sep 14, 2005 10:39:12 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: lavaman23

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    My wife owns a Boxster S with Tiptronic, PASM and sport chrono. In the city and on little country roads, there is NO car which can outrun me. NONE. I had several "encounters", especially in sharp twists and turns, the Boxster S is a blast. Everybody I spoke to at Porsche told me that the Cayman S is even more fun in twists and turns. I can't wait to drive this car. Yes, it is overpriced. Yes, it may be a rip-off. But it provides a drive feel and fun like almost no other car.
    If I'd live in the US, I'd probably go for a Z06 instead for the same money. But over here in Europe, I don't think there REALLY is an alternative in this price range.
    Straight line performance? Well, this is something else. But expect a Cayman CS by the end of 2007.

    Sep 14, 2005 10:47:41 AM

    RichJ
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    CS by 2007? Really hope so, defo like the car and cant afford the jump to a 997s (Well not at the moment anyway!).

    Lets hope if they do bring out a Cayman CS its priced in the same manner as the 968 cs, ie cheaper!!!

    Sep 14, 2005 11:41:37 AM

    lavaman23
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    I think the Cayman judged on its own is a fantastic proposition but I see the Cayman as a missed opportunity to get back to basics and do a 'Lotus Exige' of the Porsche range by creating a stripped out focussed version of the Boxster derivative. I feel it's not beyond Porsche's resources to offer something in the same vein as 964 CS. Interesting how the Cayman RS will turn out aswell as the cost...

    Sep 14, 2005 3:00:50 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    RC said: But expect a Cayman CS by the end of 2007.


    RC - I know it is really too early for questions, but based on your experience and any info, how do you guess this car will be equipped? More power? Less weight? LSD? Dry sump?

    Thanks for indulging me

    Sep 14, 2005 3:49:04 PM

    DaveC
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Well, just my thought but it wouldn't be difficult for Porsche to put in a GT3 MarkI engine (keep some distance from Big Brother) which would solve the M96 issues. An LSD would not be difficult, nor would a sport suspension similar to the 997S w/o PASM. I don't know whether an aerokit would add that much but if Porsche doesn't do it, someobody will, if only for cosmetics. It could be offered w/o AC and electric windows A roll cage could be an option along with GT3 style seats and belts. I think such a car would be highly "adequate" without significant lightening of panels or thinner glass. I don't think Porsche would ever do this, and I know that if they did it would be anything but cheap.

    Sep 14, 2005 3:51:04 PM

    KenH
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    I don't think that a new Cayman S is in the same marketplace at all as a used 996TT or GT3.
    From my perspective it is a better deal than the obvious comparison which is a base 997. Even if it is a worse deal than a Boxster S.

    Sep 14, 2005 3:51:58 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: DaveC

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Dave - those things wouldn't necessarily be "difficult", but they may threaten Porsche's marketing strategy. I would buy such a car if the price was right though

    Sep 14, 2005 4:49:06 PM

    Ente
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    A well specced Boxster S also rings up with 50k GBP. I agree that the Cayman is expensive but it has the make of an incredible driver's car. If the bank account allowed it, my husband would have ordered one months ago, and would be itching by now to test it against my Boxster S on those gorgeous English twisties.

    Sep 15, 2005 2:02:07 AM

    SoCalHoosier
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    Reply to: lavaman23

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    lavaman23 said:
    After building a Cayman S with a few essential goodies on the Porsche website, I was astonished that after adding a few bits and pieces you wouldn't get much change from Pounds50k. I think this is absurd price to pay as you can quite easily get yourself a 996 TT/mk1 GT3.

    I have come to the conclusion that the car is waaayyy overpriced. My PoundsPoundsPounds will be used to fund a purchase of a 996 TT or GT3 thankyou very much.

    Plus, with news that BMW will be bringing out the Z4 coupe, with an M version possibly round the corner, I would have to say the BMW could smoke the Cayman especially if they slot a V8 with 400bhp...

    as a Porsche lover I hate criticising Porsche but I think the Cayman really is a cynical matketing exercise designed to give potential customers a right royal shafting up the number 2.



    ...I love Porsche too but that hasn't stopped them from shafting us when it comes to their car prices. They know that most Porsche customers are well-heeled so they will pay nearly anything to look cool and appear better than their neighbor.

    I'll but the next 911 turbo only if the performance and looks are there... At this point, just because it says Porsche doesn't mean jack anymore.

    Sep 15, 2005 10:11:29 AM

    boytronic
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    Reply to: SoCalHoosier

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:

    ...They know that most Porsche customers are well-heeled so they will pay nearly anything to look cool and appear better than their neighbor.



    I guess the Cayman will cater for those requirements then...

    Sep 15, 2005 12:22:25 PM

    DaveC
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    Reply to: boytronic

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    What exactly was the expectation here mes amis?? A $40K USD 350hp stripped out mid-engne racing car with the Porsche badge?? The last time Porsche offered a "value" mid-engine car, Americans said it wasn't a real Porsche and those across the pond called it a Volkswagen. The Cayman's "exorbitant" pricing is consistent with the remainder of the model line up. The base price of the Boxster has risen appoximately $6K between 1997 and 2006. In terms of inflation, performance, and quality the 1997 buyers were far more "ripped off" than those buying a standard 987 today. Well, as we say here in Florida, such is life in the tropics.

    Sep 15, 2005 2:48:59 PM

    964C2
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    Reply to: DaveC

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    DaveC said:
    What exactly was the expectation here mes amis?? A $40K USD 350hp stripped out mid-engne racing car with the Porsche badge?? The last time Porsche offered a "value" mid-engine car, Americans said it wasn't a real Porsche and those across the pond called it a Volkswagen. The Cayman's "exorbitant" pricing is consistent with the remainder of the model line up. The base price of the Boxster has risen appoximately $6K between 1997 and 2006. In terms of inflation, performance, and quality the 1997 buyers were far more "ripped off" than those buying a standard 987 today. Well, as we say here in Florida, such is life in the tropics.


    Well said

    Sep 15, 2005 2:57:44 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: DaveC

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Think SIMPLE. Porsche has to earn money. There is no need whatsoever to put the GT3 engine into a Boxster or the Cayman. What for? There is no official Boxster or Cayman Cup...yet.
    With the GT3/Turbo/GT2 things are different, even different customers. They know what they buy and they usually care, especially the GT3 customers. It would be pretty difficult to sell them a modified 997 Carrera engine instead of the "real thing".

    How a future Cayman CS may look? Well, maybe same weight (I doubt weight will be lower due to safety regulations worldwide), at least 40 horses more and a modified suspension and MAYBE a limited slip differential.
    I don't expect more but let me ask again: what for? Porsche doesn't seem to have plans to race the Cayman, at least not now. And for a couple of customers who want a light-weight stripped off fast little racer, it is not worth it.

    We should be realistic: there won't be a car priced below the Boxster. Period. So if you're hoping for an affordable Cayman club sport, even as an "S" only, forget about it.
    There will be an entry level with rumored 250 HP and thats it. Period. Of course this car costs a tad more than the Boxster.

    Again: Porsche is in the money earning business, they don't have anything to give away for free. And there are a lot of people out there who are willing to pay the prices Porsche asks for their products. I don't always agree with Porsche and I think that the current 997/987 model line is not what customers want (even if they buy it...), especially regarding power figures. But what the heck...I'm just another customer, who gives a damn about my opinion.

    Sep 15, 2005 3:39:06 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    RC said:
    .... I don't always agree with Porsche and I think that the current 997/987 model line is not what customers want (even if they buy it...), especially regarding power figures. But what the heck...I'm just another customer, who gives a damn about my opinion.



    Porsche should care and listen to their customers otherwise those loyal customers will eventually will have a change of heart and go for something else.

    Seems to me Porsche has set their mind, as you said, to make money, money, and more money and at this point they totally discard what everyone says .

    Looks to me buch of MB and BMW execs are running the company no more die-heart Porsche guys left in the company anymore .

    Sep 15, 2005 4:10:36 PM

    DaveC
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    While I and many others may agree with Ron(Houston) sentiments, the fact is that nothing succeeds like success. Porsche's recent meteoric rise to profitability was due in large part to the adoption of Japanese techniques of production and GM style "platform" sharing (986/996), concepts utterly alien to the previous cottage industry approach. Yet,adoption of these "mass market" strategies resulted in the rescue of Porsche from either a buy out or bankruptcy. The model line has gone from essentially one car in 1996 to four in only 10 years, one of which is an SUV!

    Sep 15, 2005 4:23:30 PM

    EricAlain
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    Reply to: DaveC

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace


    I think they do listen to their customers .... but may be not enough to their "die hard" ones like us. I think we represent only a minimal fraction of Porsche's customer base and unfortunately they want to appeal to the largest crowd possible.

    By the way, they don't foresee any cannibalization between the Cayman and the 911. However they think some will exist between the Boxster and the Cayman, and this is great news for profits !!!!

    I suspect, the Cayman is cheaper to manufacture than the Boxster and they sell it at a higher price.

    Sep 15, 2005 6:04:32 PM

    C.Plavan
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    Reply to: EricAlain

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    It's funny how much people complain. If you do not want to buy it, or can't afford it, buy a used Porsche and strip it out to make yourself happy. I agree, Porsche has lost some of their roots. That does not make me question their marketing practices. They have one hell of a car coming out.... Why not charge more for it? They are in the business of making money along with cars. I would do the same thing. As for a CS version. I never think that will happen. So quit your complaining about the price. Either go put down a deposit, or go buy a used Boxster,996,993,951,944, ect. Do not come here crying about price. There is still more fun to be had with the Porsche brand, just a few years older and alot more affordable. I'm sure you will still have that same $%^# eating grin compared to someone who just bought a Cayman S.

    Sep 15, 2005 9:50:57 PM

    KenH
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    Reply to: C.Plavan

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    "By the way, they don't foresee any cannibalization between the Cayman and the 911. "

    Well I am one example of such cannibalization. I have ordered the Cayman instead of a 997. I have never had a Boxster but have had six 911s so I might be considered to be a "911 person".
    I would have bought a Cayman S years ago if it had existed because it represents exactly the kind of car I want (I don't like rag-tops) at a price I am prepared to pay in the UK.
    I am happy to pay 50k pounds for a UK car but not 65 - 70k.
    However, in the US I have a 997 because that is what I can get for the same money (actually rather less, $75k = 42k pounds).

    Sep 15, 2005 9:53:49 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: KenH

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    KenH said:
    "By the way, they don't foresee any cannibalization between the Cayman and the 911. "

    Well I am one example of such cannibalization. I have ordered the Cayman instead of a 997. I have never had a Boxster but have had six 911s so I might be considered to be a "911 person".
    I would have bought a Cayman S years ago if it had existed because it represents exactly the kind of car I want (I don't like rag-tops) at a price I am prepared to pay in the UK.
    I am happy to pay 50k pounds for a UK car but not 65 - 70k.
    However, in the US I have a 997 because that is what I can get for the same money (actually rather less, $75k = 42k pounds).


    Ken - Looking forward to a comparison of the two cars

    Sep 15, 2005 9:59:40 PM

    KenH
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    <Ken - Looking forward to a comparison of the two cars>

    Me too. Allegedly my Cayman is arriving in November so not too long to wait.

    Sep 15, 2005 10:36:42 PM

    willr
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    Reply to: KenH

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    KenH said:
    <Ken - Looking forward to a comparison of the two cars>

    Me too. Allegedly my Cayman is arriving in November so not too long to wait.



    Which OPC are you getting it from, Ken? I'm hoping to be driving one away from Reading then, too

    Sep 16, 2005 1:23:49 AM

    KenH
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    Reply to: willr

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Porsche West London (or whatever they call themselves nowadays).
    Or AFN Isleworth as they used to be called when I bought my first Porsches (924S, 944T, 924 Carrera GT, 944T SE, 968 Sport and a bunch of 911s including a 3.2 Club Sport later owned by Chris Harris of Autocar.
    One unusual thing is that I am still dealing with the same sales guy as I was in about 1987 (or maybe even earlier).

    Sep 16, 2005 9:32:13 AM

    SoCalHoosier
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    Reply to: C.Plavan

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    C.Plavan said:
    It's funny how much people complain. If you do not want to buy it, or can't afford it, buy a used Porsche and strip it out to make yourself happy. I agree, Porsche has lost some of their roots. That does not make me question their marketing practices. They have one hell of a car coming out.... Why not charge more for it? They are in the business of making money along with cars. I would do the same thing. As for a CS version. I never think that will happen. So quit your complaining about the price. Either go put down a deposit, or go buy a used Boxster,996,993,951,944, ect. Do not come here crying about price. There is still more fun to be had with the Porsche brand, just a few years older and alot more affordable. I'm sure you will still have that same $%^# eating grin compared to someone who just bought a Cayman S.



    ...and when they market and price themselves, with little to no regard towards their competitors, we will be void of one more sports car manufacturer.
    To be a fan of a sports car does not mean you have to be drinking their kool-aid.

    Sep 16, 2005 12:47:11 PM

    lavaman23
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    Reply to: SoCalHoosier

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Agree with SoCalHoosier, Porsche charging more $Pounds$ than its roadster equivalent is rather arrogant, however it could be argued the new(ish)engine and extra ponies may account for the markup. You know what they say, horses for courses...

    Sep 16, 2005 12:51:32 PM

    EricAlain
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    Reply to: lavaman23

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace


    Believe me, other car makers would love to charge more for their cars BUT they just can't ... So if Porsche is charging a premium it is because they can do it otherwise they wouldn't.

    For the time being it seems more and more people are happy to pay a premium, that is what you call "brand equity".

    Sep 16, 2005 1:02:02 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: EricAlain

    Re: Cayman S = Disgrace

    Quote:
    EricAlain said:

    Believe me, other car makers would love to charge more for their cars BUT they just can't ... So if Porsche is charging a premium it is because they can do it otherwise they wouldn't.
    ...



    Right on. Ever asked yourself why GM offers the C6 for so little money? Because of friendliness..?

    Wether the Cayman is a great deal or a rip-off belongs to each individually. Of course it is funny to offer a coupe version of a convertible for MORE money with nearly identical equipment and only 15hp more (from an engine I suspect has been used in similiar configuration previously). I haven't seen the car in person yet but if looks are more promising than most official photos than this car might be a great choice.

    Besides that Porsche
    a. had a very big crisis a decade ago
    b. competition will grow
    c. definately made money but are willing to finance a forth model therefore
    d. have earned 3/4 of last years gains by financial activities, not by selling cars!
    e. could still be a bit cheaper since I am not willing to pay that much either for a brandnew car
    f. have still enough great employees left, it just gets a bit dilluted since Wiedeking's rigid costsaving plans are the aspect that is the most visible
     
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