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    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    RC,

    first of all you shouldn't worry about your age. As you said, it seemed to be rather due to current worries than anything else. I have to admit that driving a car on the limit is not the best thing to do in this case - still I have to recall this to myself sometimes.

    Besides that PSM is definately a safety improvement - just today a friend of mine told me about an accident on the Autobahn with three of his closest family members - the driver had to perform an emergency lanechange at high speed.

    To say that Porsche drivers are more trained or educated handling the car might be true - the fact that 911s are demanding cars just as much!
    We had the very same discussion on the German board a couple of weeks ago and the vast majority of comments was AGAINST PSM in this car. Ridiculous, if you ask me!
    Audi and others even imcorporated ABS and ASR in the AWD models a few years ago, why shouldn't it work with LSD?

    As someone mentioned above, the majority of tragic and severe crashes I have seen and read about, especially on this board, was with non-ESP equipped GT models. The number of Turbos and 4S-models involved in these accidents is rather low, it seems to me!

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Well said....

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    I think that was a very wise decision, but one difficult to take, as the feeling of 'I'll be OK, I'll just keep going' is overwhelming.



    True, wtsnet. Since I have done it once, next time reaching the decision will be easier and I will exit the highway quicker. The side of me that says "Keep going," will stand less of a chance in influence.

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    I keep caffeine pills (Pro Plus) in the car, so that on a bad drive home after a looong day, I can take 2 or 3, and that'll help a lot. There was a study on here on the caffeine content of service-station coffee which indicated that you'd have to drink several pints of the stuff to ingest enough caffeine to be any good at keeping you awake!



    Many of my friends cannot get through a normal day without caffeine. I've seen its addictive effects therefore I would prefer to rest and be late arriving home than to take caffeine pills especially when I am the kind of person who gets addicted to bad habits easily.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I had a lot of stress lately, lots of worries with new business and kids' health. I didn't sleep much over the past few weeks but actually felt quite fresh all the time, may a littel bit exhausted.




    Accepting stress at work and at home is a double whammy. Where do you go to escape and relax? The 911 S. Unfortunately, the 911 S you ordered was the most extreme version available and you were driving in Sport mode. The car, the configuration and Sport mode requires absolute concentration and a fine touch as you emphasized months ago. You are more than capable for the task but not when stressed out.

    Perhaps, RC, you may consider sitting down and getting a new perspective on life.

    Fact: Children usually get sick often as they grow up. Parents are stressed until they learn the difference between minor and major sickness. Now if your children are suffering from a serious ailment, then it's ok to be worried but as long as you are giving them the best medical treatment, there's not much you can do but calm yourself and wait for them to get better. And since both parents are in the medical field, you cannot be in a better situation.

    Fact: Work can be stressful whether it's a new or old business. The key is how much stress is worth accepting. And how much time are you willing to reserve to de-stress and rest BEFORE taking the wheel of the 911?

    If I am dead tired and feel stressed, I don't bother going for a drive. Driving numb, tired, and slow is not an option for me. I need to drive fast to feel alive . Hence, I sleep at least ten hours, eat well, throw all worries out of my mind and then get behind the wheel. No cell phones. No passengers. Tire pressure. Check. Full tank of fuel. Check. Clean windshield and wipers. Check. Time to drive. After a two or three hour drive I come back home and feel like I've been on vacation. I am rejuvenated for anything life throws at me.

    Stress will control your life and ultimately end it only if you let it do so. It's time to reassess, Christian, and ask yourself what is most important in life.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Whenever fault is found with Porsche someone is quick to defend them but trying to point out some fault with Ferrari. Let me set the record straight.

    Ferrari does not have side airbags because they maintain that the structural integrity of the doors are sufficient to withstand impacts. The US DOT agrees with them. In Ben's car, the passenger side airbag deployed. Ben and Cory still died from the G-force impact.

    Regarding safety performance management systems, in a Ferrari you can turn them off if your stupid enough to do so.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Ferrari does not have side airbags because they maintain that the structural integrity of the doors are sufficient to withstand impacts. The US DOT agrees with them. In Ben's car, the passenger side airbag deployed. Ben and Cory still died from the G-force impact.




    Airbags are only 100% effective at speeds up to 50 kmh (approx 30 mph)
    Anything above that, their integrity in compromised.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    I believe the ability to turn all electronic aids off in a relatively safe environment as an autox is useful. In terms of driving education, the driver can learn more from the autox setting because of a willingness to push harder than at a high speed track and learn the car's behavior at the limit. Electronic aids can then be used for the street.

    Good info on the airbags.

    After Ben and Corey's accident, I have noted a lot of people thinking to install roll cages and harnesses in their cars and wearing full nomex suits with HANS devices in their own cars at the track. Would it have helped Ben and Corey? I don't know, but it seems reasonable to afford yourself every safety measure possible if you are to go into that environment.

    - J

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    I believe the ability to turn all electronic aids off in a relatively safe environment as an autox is useful. In terms of driving education, the driver can learn more from the autox setting because of a willingness to push harder than at a high speed track and learn the car's behavior at the limit. Electronic aids can then be used for the street.

    Good info on the airbags.

    After Ben and Corey's accident, I have noted a lot of people thinking to install roll cages and harnesses in their cars and wearing full nomex suits with HANS devices in their own cars at the track. Would it have helped Ben and Corey? I don't know, but it seems reasonable to afford yourself every safety measure possible if you are to go into that environment.

    - J



    No, I doubt it would have made a difference.The Hahn device is good in frontal but much less effecive in side impacts.

    Though it remains somewhat unclear whether Ben's car was a right front side or right rear side impact, we do know when his car hit the barrier it was at a speed considerably less than 100mph. The tub (passenger compartment) of the CGT is very rigid and unforgiving.

    I believe it is designed that way. The assumption is that most of the impact energy would be absorbed by the surrounding materials.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    RC had a bad day, realized the gravity of his cars dynamics if not careful paid attention to and suddenly this ends up as a thread for the Volvo minded.

    Gentlemen, these are fast sports cars. No airbag, no side impact beam and no electronic nanny can keep u alive if you hit a hard object at high speed. Its lights out, game over, pass the checkbook.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    For the F430, it is indeed shocking that the car doesn't have side impact protection, but I read that with the 360, the driver was sufficiently far enough from the door not to to install a side airbag. A bit lame if you ask me, would be interesting to see the state of a F430 driver after a 30 mph side impact by an H2



    Very lame excusses, especially because nothing can guarantee integrity of the door, much less the window which is about ride height level with the bumper and chasis of the comon heavy SUV/Truck vehicles that make up todays traffic
    Second, people will not belive how much the driver moves around inside the seat and seat belt in a crash, even the seat backs deform and move, and the seat belts have some give-away built into them. And especially the head which is the most vurnerable structure, and stiffening the cahsis does nothing for lessening the impact. So arguing that by stiffening the chasis a bit in a low ride height sportcar, you can do without airbags is pathetic to say the least, though not as much as though as drivers who believe tha BS.



    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Ferrari does not have side airbags because they maintain that the structural integrity of the doors are sufficient to withstand impacts.



    If what I said above doens't make the least bit sense to you, and you are psichosomatically deaf then maybe you can still see. Take a look at the picture bellow and think about how stupid "structural integrity of the upper structure of a sportcar being sufficient to withstanding impacts" sounds. I know in this case airbags would not have been of much good, but its the more common in between case I'm worried about. All it takes is a fraction of that accident.
    Some cars do better than others, but sportcars generally are the the worst when it comes to side impacts becuase their weakest spot (pillars and windows) is right were the strongest is of the normal cars (bumper and chasis), so they take the worst part, and even though airbags have their limits of what they can do, but just like a seat belts, yet we don't even think about not putting them on. Airbags are are a mayor advantage in preventing torso and head injury by lessening the impact, just ask a neurologist who treats these injuries everyday what what he thinks about hardening the side of the car to prevent head injuries and forgo airbags.
    And there is abosultely no reason whatsoever that excuses the lack off investement in R&D to offer side airbags even if its as an option, in a modern car meant for the street. Pathetic and inmoral if you ask me. And as ridiculous as it seems today to say that you don't need seat belts in a car because of so and so reason as opposed to the 60's, years from now we will thinking be thing the same about airbags.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    yikes, i take it no survivors...

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Carlos, are you aware airbags can kill? Why do you think Porsche stopped making the CGT? Aside from the sales issue, they stopped because in the US starting with 2006 models they all must have two stage airbags. One stage which fires at a low velocity and another at a higher velocity. Before, airbags deployed at a much higher rate and if anything aggravated or caused injuries.

    Since the CGT is a limited production car and car manufacturers have been put on notice of the changes for some time now, if Porsche is so safety conscious why didn't they incorporate the safer airbags into the CGT?

    Also, there is a huge difference between preventing an accident (PSM) and hopefully reducing injuries (side airbags). If I had may choice, it would be the PSM any day of the week.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Had a horrible driving day today, made several driving mistakes I never expected I'll do again or with my experience. I had a lot of stress lately, lots of worries with new business and kids' health. I didn't sleep much over the past few weeks but actually felt quite fresh all the time, may a littel bit exhausted.
    Today I finally had the chance to drive my 997 CS for two hours but I almost crashed the car several times. It never happened to me before and I came back horrified. Happy me, I have PSM on my car, although the "sport" setting on the chrono sport option was all the active.

    Well, why do I tell this to you? I had to think about Ben.
    No matter how good of a driver you are or think you are, it can happen... And I also realized that the physical and mental condition of the driver is more than important, it is vital. I knew that before but maybe many of you don't realize it, until it is too late. I think that only my driving routine and the PSM together saved me from crashing today. I don't think something horrible would have happened, it was at low speeds but nethertheless: I did some VERY VERY stupid driving mistakes which shouldn't happen or which I thought could never happen to me again. And they didn't for the past years, this is why I'm that upset.

    Before you decide to buy a car without PSM (like the GT3/GT2/CGT), think twice: are you buying this car because it really allows you to be faster than in a non-PSM equipped car or are you buying it because you think it(the car) makes you faster just sitting in it. Today FINALLY decided to forget about a 997 GT3 or GT2 like I still had in my mind for some time. I'm happy I ordered a 997 Turbo S, it may not be the fastest or lightest car around but I think it will provide me with that extra safety cushion I may need from time to time. I'm 40 now, maybe I just got old. But I know one thing for sure: today it wasn't fun at all driving my 997 CS and I came back home pretty frustrated.

    Sorry to bother you with this story but maybe you had a similar experience and never wanted to really talk about it.
    Just be careful out there, it can happen to ANYBODY.



    right. that's it -- it's always dangerous. anything can happen anytime.

    i consider myself very cautious while driving and that i can anticipate what other drivers are going to do even before THEY know it -- but does this help when everything goes wrong?

    some days ago i oversaw another car while changing lanes on the autobahn. i thought that something like this could never happen. but it did! thankfully, nothing happened.

    but if you are in the wrong mood, at the wrong time, in the wrong place...

    don't let yourself down because of a bad driving day RC!

    and i like what francois said:

    Quote:
    better be safe than sorry.


    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    nberry said:Before, airbags deployed at a much higher rate and if anything aggravated or caused injuries.


    Yeah, and those seatbelts can make nasty bruise marks on your chest too. Why DO those evil manufacturers install them!

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    It takes a genuinely honest and humble man to say what you've said RC. I fully agree.

    Max respect.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What I find puzzling is why Porsche sells the cars without PSM.



    For one, when the GT3/GT2 came out PSM was incompatible with the rear LSD of these cars. Not its compatible but at the expense of lower locking rates. So one reason is technical.

    Another is the fact that these cars are street cars designed for track use, and PSM cannot be completely swithced off for legal reasons.

    And lastly, there is the macho image you mention, some of the sales of these cars go to buyers that just want the image, and PSM would waterdown that image for some of those.

    I personally hope that the 997GT3 gets a PSM, with selectable setting like with the sportchrono, and one being for track use.

    So there are several reasons for the lack of PSM and I agree with you should be resovled and implemented on the 997 GT3/GT2, but what puzzles me is that I have not seen you advocate equally the implementation of side airbags on the Ferrari lineup. They are not even option, which I think is even worse. That is simply medieval and increases greatly risk the lives of their drivers unnecesarily. You get hit or you hit something from the side and there is nothing protecting you from smashing your head and torso, something very tragic that their owners may not realise.



    I really believe that no matter what car you drive, PSM or not, you've got to respect it. You could say the same for race bikes. The Yamaha R1 for instance. Who needs a 350 lbs bike with 180 hp. 180 hp!!!!

    If you don't respect the bike, drive it within your limits, the type of motorcycle or car or it's mechanical assitance is not going to make a difference. I don't track my GT3. I do drive it fast at times, but I pick and choose my areas wisely. And I make sure that I stay within the limits of my driving ability, not the automobiles.

    The PSM in my car is my accelerator, control it and you'll be fine. Getting cocky may lead you to unwanted consequences.

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    Human limitations must be accepted and yielded to. This seems to me the essential message on land, sea, or air. Technology can often compensate for our errors, but not entirely. We cannot rely on technology to protect us from ourselves. (Turning ourselves over entirely to technology is another discussion) As a group Rennteam members recognize driving as a skill to be developed and an activity requiring undivided attention. The vast majority of drivers are not even attentive to the road (at least based on my observations in several large US metropolitan areas), let alone concerned about driving skills. Is it any wonder that the carnage on American highways totals 40,000 lives yearly???

    Re: One bad day is enough to be...dead

    You're allot safer driving your car comfortably below its limits and in good mental state without stability control than right at the ragged edge with stability control. It still amazes me how often people forget that the faster you're driving, the less time you have to react. Everyone thinks they're superman with lightning quick reflexes.

     
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