Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Cayenne Diesel - Engine Decision - Page1

Aug 6, 2003 4:46:56 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002

Cayenne Diesel - Engine Decision

Rumors indicate that Porsche abandoned the idea of using the Audi Diesel.
Instead, they''ll use the VW V10 Diesel from the Touareg.
Rumored power is "minimum 350 HP", around 360-380 HP are more likely.
This rumor seems to indicate that Porsche finally has made a "pro" Diesel decision, something which was actually really necessary for the Euro market.

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Aug 6, 2003 5:45:25 PM

dedam: Pilot; Loc: Holland , United States; Posts: 464, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 27, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Cayenne Diesel - Engine Decision

Porsche with diesel engine
I can not believe it
1 Year ago Wiedeking said never Diesel in a Porsche

The only rumor I want to hear from Porsche is that they are going back to Motorsport
Wendy needs a big Mirror
I hope Ferdinand is not hearing all these rumors!

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Aug 6, 2003 7:43:50 PM

330: Veteran; Loc: Italy; Posts: 985, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2003; Reply to: dedam

Re: Cayenne Diesel - Engine Decision

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NO DIESEL!!!!!

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Aug 7, 2003 3:20:12 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: 330

Re: Cayenne Diesel - Engine Decision

I feel your pain my friend

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Aug 7, 2003 8:04:11 AM

The_Mickette: Newbie; Loc: France; Posts: 32, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Cayenne Diesel - Engine Decision

this is not good, we want some motosport!

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Aug 7, 2003 8:36:57 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: The_Mickette

Some perspective guys...

Guys, for the hard core fans that we are, the worst has been done anyway, a Porsche SUV.
So they might as well release a diesel engine for it now,especially if it's gonna be a 350 hp V10

I agree with Zzoba, as long as it puches sales and ultimately profit, I'm happy.
I want my favorite car company to stay independant!

Plus a diesel engine is what an SUV needs logically, for Off road, etc.
Diesel engines are by conception much more torquey than petrol engines and the max torque comes at much lower revs.
No one wants to push a Cayenne Turbo to 7000 rpm anyway

And also, the Cayenne S and Turbo may be good for the american market, but diesel costs 2/3 of petrol in Europe and the engines are more frugal, 75% of cars in France are diesel today!

And I used to be anti diesel but it's there, there's nothing you can do about it, and to tell you the truth when you see cars like the M400CDI, the 330D or the Touareg V10TDI, you take away the fact they sounds like tractors and they're pretty brilliant cars.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of diesel at all, a sport car by definition is a petrol car but the Cayenne is no sport car. Fact.

I say bring on the Cayenne V10D Porsche, make some profit, and invest it in those magnificent sport cars that you're so good at making.
The only thing is, I wonder how Wiedeking is going to look when announcing a diesel (if there will be one) he said himself there will be never be one!
Well, never say never!

Fanch.

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Aug 7, 2003 9:29:39 AM

dedam: Pilot; Loc: Holland , United States; Posts: 464, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 27, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Some perspective guys...

Wiedeking postponed motorsports due to development off the Cayenne and said to come back to motorsports after the Cayenne is on the streets

So now the Cayenne is there and selling well.
The company independants is secured (They make at lot off money out off the Cayenne)

But No motorsports
Wiedeking has to go back to the roots off Porsche before its to late and Al Bundy is driving a Cayenne V6

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Aug 7, 2003 10:16:05 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Some perspective guys...

Quote:
I agree with Zzoba, as long as it puches sales and ultimately profit, I'm happy.

but don't get me wrong: i do not like the cayenne! but we have to live with it. and with the situation given, nothing would be more worse than if the cayenne would become a commercial failure for porsche. so if a TDI helps...

i do not like diesels personally, but putting a diesel engine in a porsche is IMO not torpedoing their brand that much as building a cross country vehicle does. should get the particle filter system, though.

and the question is: what is really left of porsche on a V10 TDI cayenne? it's 90% VW with some finishing by porsche. i wonder if customers really demand such car. i would prefer the V10 TDI touareg. it's genuine at least.

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Aug 7, 2003 12:20:04 PM

J.Seven: Rennteam Master; Loc: Estoril , Portugal; Posts: 3201, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: Some perspective guys...

Last side by side I read between the VW V10 Diesel and the Cayenne S, the Cayenne was totally smoked in performance figures, even from 0-100Kph the Porsche was smoked. Diesel engines are not what they used to be on the passed. Nowadays they are quiter and have lots of torque. For instance the new BMW 5 series 530D was put in a side by side test with the BMW 530i. Well guess what, the Diesel blown away in every figures the 530i, and if you think that a S400CDI with all the family inside and even the dog can smoke a Boxster, this might mean something. Oh and diesel is cheaper and these engine make 7,0 L/100Kph.

I make 4 hours from Lisbon to Madrid in my Audi Avant A6 180Hp TDI, with the 3.4L powered Boxster I make 3H50 and spend almost the double in gas and money. Just for the record, with the Range Rover V8 that makes 18l/100Kph

, I take 5hours and spend three times more than with the Audi

.I'm not saying diesel is the way to go, but nowadays in Europe is a must to have a diesel as a everyday car. The v10 from VW is more refined than the V8 from the Cayenne S, and I believe this to be a very smart move from Porsche. This diesel is way faster, it needs less gas and it's also quite and smooth. Of course the V8 has an engine sound that a D engine will never achieve, but that's a price to pay in the name of economy.

J.Seven

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Aug 7, 2003 12:49:53 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: J.Seven

Re: Some perspective guys...

You're right J, but remember that buying a Porsche is an act of passion. Buying a diesel is an act of Reaon.
Zz pointed out something so true, if Porsche goes for the V6 or V10D, then the only difference between the Cayenne et Touareg will be down to styling.
To conclude your analysis, you don't buy a petrol car to be faster from A to B, you buy it for the driving pleasure, the revs, the sound etc etc etc.
Between Paris and Nice, I drove down last year with my friend in his A3 Tdi, he arrive well before me

, 950 km with one full tank

between 130 and 150 all the way, whereas I stopped twice for petrol, driving between 160 and 200, I never did more than 420 kms with one full tank.
It's sad but true, today, DIESEL cars are the FASTEST from A to B (given a long distance of course). FACT!

Fanch.

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Aug 7, 2003 1:55:11 PM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3530, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Some perspective guys...

Quote:
Zz pointed out something so true, if Porsche goes for the V6 or V10D, then the only difference between the Cayenne et Touareg will be down to styling.

Mostly styling and some assembly skill differences but also there is the dealership. That could be significant. I haven't been to a VW dealership recently but my past experiences have not been good. The only positive thing about the many problems we have had with our X-5 has been the dealer attitude (part of the Penske dealership chain). The vehicle is in the shop right now for an air suspension fault; a leak probably. We get first class treatment and an X-5 loaner. Will VW give Touareg owners first class treatment? I don't know. Will Cayenne owners get first class service? It has been good so far but ask me again in two years. Anyway, the point is, good service vs. bad is probably worth a 10-20% price differential. And, bad service will hurt a brands overall reputation.

BTW, I am logging in from my mother's house in beautiful Oklahoma!

I will drive about 1500 miles by the time I get home. A good initiation for the Cayenne. Got my first speeding ticket in the Cayenne already! (it's best not to wait too long). I'll post some travel photos when I get back: "The Cayenne in Oklahoma"

. I know you can't wait.

Oh, and one other thing (back on topic), I think the diesel is a good idea.

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Aug 7, 2003 10:15:22 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: GM Austin

A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

Would it be really that bad to see a Diesel in a Porsche Cayenne? If yes, why?
I my opinion, the Cayenne is a SUV, no sports car.
A SUV needs a Diesel engine, especially in Europe and especially in Germany.
Would I be shocked if Porsche uses a Diesel engine in one of their models? Nope or at least not more than Porsche building a SUV.

C'mon, guys. We already got used to the Cayenne, even if some of us still don't like it.
The main reason why I don't like it is it's conservative design, it's excessive weight and it's price tag.
Otherwise, the Cayenne is a very nice, modern and good SUV with interesting off-road capabilities and two very nice engines.
I think however that Cayenne sales will slow down substantially over the next few years, not only because of the upcoming brandnew X5 and ML/GST but because of the fact that the Cayenne isn't something new or spectacular.
Porsche fell in their own trap by suggesting (mainly during development) that the Cayenne will be a crossover between a sportscar and a SUV. It isn't. And this is why I don't understand why Porsche had to adapt a "911 Off-Road" design for the Cayenne. It looks weird, it looks ridiculous and especially the rear looks absolutely boring.

To make it clear: I wanted to order a Cayenne Turbo (despite it's negative points) because I think it is a great SUV, so I don't want to offend any Cayenne owners.
But fact is: Porsche could have done better, much better without the pressure of their own "oath" to build a SUV sportscar.

I'd like to see the next Cayenne generation as an independent product, with Porsche looks and genes but different than the 911 and with a much fresher design.
I wish Porsche the best luck with the Cayenne but I still doubt it's success on a longterm run.

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Aug 14, 2003 3:05:00 PM

Seth: Junior; Loc: Nevada, USA; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 19, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

I have to agree that you have little to differenciate VW and P versions except styling and PRICE. Unfortunately for P, I think VW Toureg has a better front end design. I don't really care for either rear design. The VW diesel will be available in limited numbers in the USA next year, reportedly about March. I plan to test drive one as a possible Jeep Grand Cherokee replacement.

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Aug 15, 2003 10:24:10 AM

Cay: Junior; Loc: Germany; Posts: 124, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 10, 2003; Reply to: Seth

Re: A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

Hi,

I'm ok if Pursch releases a B I G Diesel - much more than the
release of the lill V6. But a Cay RS Lightweight Street Only would be a much nicer model :-)) The real BAD thing in this Diesel discussion is that Pursch will go for the VW Engine - a own Diesel Engine would be much better. And don`t forget - Pursch first vehicles been Diesel Tractors! So its absolutely correct to talk from a Pursch Diesel.

I don`t agree that the Cay is not sporty - it`s not sporty comparing him to the 911`s - but it`s very sporty if you compare him to the as "sportscars" announced cars from Benz & Co. The prices are also very fair if you compare them honestly to his competitors.

Oh Boy I'm happy with my S and would buy him allways again.
My Pursch Dealer sold 80 units in the first 6 months - cuz people hate him sooo much :-)

Cheers
Cay

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Aug 15, 2003 3:26:45 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Cay

Re: A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

Quote:
Hi,

I'm ok if Pursch releases a B I G Diesel - much more than the
release of the lill V6. But a Cay RS Lightweight Street Only would be a much nicer model :-)) The real BAD thing in this Diesel discussion is that Pursch will go for the VW Engine - a own Diesel Engine would be much better. And don`t forget - Pursch first vehicles been Diesel Tractors! So its absolutely correct to talk from a Pursch Diesel.

I don`t agree that the Cay is not sporty - it`s not sporty comparing him to the 911`s - but it`s very sporty if you compare him to the as "sportscars" announced cars from Benz & Co. The prices are also very fair if you compare them honestly to his competitors.

Oh Boy I'm happy with my S and would buy him allways again.
My Pursch Dealer sold 80 units in the first 6 months - cuz people hate him sooo much :-)

Cheers
Cay

Well, a big power Diesel makes sense in the Cayenne, a V6 not. But I can see that Porsche probably wants to push sales of the Cayenne to compensate with the lower sports car sales. A low priced V6 could do that but there is the danger of risking Cayenne S and especially Cayenne Turbo sales.
Regarding a Cayenne lightweight: no chance.
Regarding a Cayenne RS: there is a strong rumor of a 500+ HP Cayenne for the next 12 months but I can't say if this will be the rumored "powerkit" or a completely new Cayenne model.
Right now, Porsche tests Cayenne with more than 600 HP under the hood, so power is no real issue. Tires shouldn't be an issue anymore too, Pirelli and Michelin offer high speed tires up to at least 300 kph for cars with more than 2.4 tons of weight (even up to more than 2.8 tons as far as I heard).
Regarding AMG Mercedes (I suppose this is what you mean):
the Cayenne Turbo stands no chance against my E55, not even close to it. So I'm not sure what you're talking about but maybe you can explain. BTW: I don't consider my E55 a sports car.

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Aug 15, 2003 5:21:51 PM

Cay: Junior; Loc: Germany; Posts: 124, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 10, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

Quote:
Quote:
Hi,

Regarding AMG Mercedes (I suppose this is what you mean):
the Cayenne Turbo stands no chance against my E55, not even close to it. So I'm not sure what you're talking about but maybe you can explain. BTW: I don't consider my E55 a sports car.

I talked globally from so as sportcars announced models - yes and I would also include the AMG`s. It`s not the question in my eyes of chances reg. acc. and topspeed - I mean the feel from a car and a Benz for eg will allways been a comfortable (and since last year a fast one too) car and not a active streetmachine to force him around bends like hell. I owned allways Benz and 911`s in the past years and my buttomline would be take the Benz if you NEED to drive and take the Pursch if you WANT to drive. Both brands are excellent in their special field - but`s senseless to compare them, period.

The Cayenne is a very good thing between both brands -
comfortable and stressfree but active and powerfull enough that he don`t get`s boring with the time.

To come back to the Diesel Discussion I would really HATE if they take a VW engine - I'm pissed enough to see the VW Logos everywhere when I remove parts like for eg the small claps in the trunk. The amount of VW parts inside like for eg switches are really on my personal maximum - a VW engine would be the L A S T wishful thing for me.

So Volkswagen - pls keep your parts on your end - if we want VW we will visit the local VW dealer :-)

It's great that they developed such cool running V8 and I'm sure everyone would be happy and amazed from a real Pursch Diesel developement. If the Diesel is big and powerful enough it could really be a pain to deside between the Diesel & Gas V8 - but a small V6 and near 2.5 tons are absolutely out of my focus but I'm afraid that they will sell much more small Cay`s than V8`s.

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Aug 15, 2003 6:44:02 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Cay

Re: A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

Quote:
I talked globally from so as sportcars announced models - yes and I would also include the AMG`s. It`s not the question in my eyes of chances reg. acc. and topspeed - I mean the feel from a car and a Benz for eg will allways been a comfortable (and since last year a fast one too) car and not a active streetmachine to force him around bends like hell. I owned allways Benz and 911`s in the past years and my buttomline would be take the Benz if you NEED to drive and take the Pursch if you WANT to drive.

I'd really advise you to testdrive a E55 and don't forget to set the suspension to the Sport 2 setup.
It is the same drive feel of a 996 C2 without M030.
I had a Mercedes E500 loaner for two days and when I changed back to my E55, I thought something is wrong with the suspension and steering.

Before my E55, I owned a 996 Turbo modified by RS-Tuning (543 HP, H&R coilover kit, GT2 wheels, one-mass flywheel, gearbox cooling system, etc.), so I'm no "softie".

AMG cars have improved a lot, only two things have to be improved further: traction and weight.

The Cayenne Turbo is one of the finest (if not THE finest) SUV around on this planet but driving it for a full day on the street (and pretty fast

) and a few hours on a closed circuit, I can tell you that the Cayenne Turbo isn't even close to a E55 from any point of view.
I'd buy the Cayenne Turbo immediately because it is very nicely engineered but it is still a SUV and a SUV is no track car. I know that some peopel are crazy enough to race their Cayennes but I wonder why someone would do that.
I'd get a 996 C2 for a cheaper price, put a nice H&R coilover kit on it and you'll have a track king.
For my wife (or me moving my family), the Cayenne Turbo is my favorite. But I'd NEVER take it to the track because I don't want those GT2/GT3/Lotus Elise/Caterham drivers make fun of me over here (and this is exactly what would happen... ).

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Aug 15, 2003 7:51:04 PM

Cay: Junior; Loc: Germany; Posts: 124, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 10, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

Yep, I agree totally thats more than stupid to "race" a Cayenne. I don't even want that with a normal C2.

Even real good trackcars than RS`s & GT3`s needs special improvements to have fun by cornering and feel safe in it.

What I mean is for eg that (bad) feeling: - I`ve just tried the SL 500 R230 on the Ring and get afraid in the first serious right corner at T13 how the weight from the car try to press you out of the lane - I dont need that bad feeling with a cpl hundrets kg`s more. So a real sportscar need a clean layout right from beginning - sure, you can improve a lot with modifications but you cant change the "heart" from the car really.

Compare just the steering feeling in a GT3 and a C2 - it`s a difference like black & white.

Regarding the Cayenne I wish that the PAG keeps him "clean" -
a luxory power cruiser with outstanding and typical Pursch features. So the PAG have to find a way to a own Diesel Engine that rules. Implenting complete engines from others is
the wrong way in my opinion. To make the people feel they just bought a lill "bigger" 996 is also a big fault cuz it isn`t
. The Cayenne needs a own and stronger identity inside the program and the engines are big marks.

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Aug 15, 2003 8:11:45 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59581, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Cay

Re: A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

Quote:
What I mean is for eg that (bad) feeling: - I`ve just tried the SL 500 R230 on the Ring and get afraid in the first serious right corner at T13 how the weight from the car try to press you out of the lane - I dont need that bad feeling with a cpl hundrets kg`s more. So a real sportscar need a clean layout right from beginning - sure, you can improve a lot with modifications but you cant change the "heart" from the car really.

As I said before: the only "true" Mercedes sports cars (if one can say that about a Mercedes

) are the ones from the AMG devision. The SL500 is a joke, I drove one months ago and I was suprised how much comfort oriented this thing was.

As I told in my post before, I was shocked when I switched from my E500 loaner to my E55. Like day and night, honestly.

Porsche's "own" Diesel engine won't exist for now.
As I told in one of the rumors, it will be a "supped up" VW V10 Diesel, which is a pretty poweful engine.
I'm sure that Porsche will throw in some of their knowhow but Diesel engines aren't really their domain right now.

A 400 HP Diesel engine (no matter who's the manufacturer of the base engine) would be a better choice than a V6.

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Cayenne Diesel - Engine Decision

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A few thoughts regarding a Diesel in the Cayenne

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