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    Jul 27, 2005 4:06:09 PM

    Grant
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    More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    There has been a reference to a magazine article posted on Corvette websites lately that states the 7:42.9 laptime was recorded after 2 weeks of suspension tuning and tire changing before Magnussen drove the laps. It states that the tires used were treaded street tires, but does not make mention of runflats. I am suspicious that the car tested does not reflect the stock suspension settings and tires...

    On the other hand, I'm not aware of any other street tires that are made in the Z06's sizes, so I'm not sure what to conclude...

    Jul 27, 2005 4:34:37 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    very interesting... the story slowly unfolds, wonder what the "vette marketing department renteamers" will say about what has been said about the folies of factory testing claims and propaganda
    Can't wait for the SpoartAuto test... no out of spec suspension settings or alignments, stock tires, the same driver reference to all cars, etc. I'm sure it will post an impressive lap time, albeit a more realistic one

    as to the tires... they could have used Michelin Sport tires, they don't have a 335/30/19 rear but the have a 345/30/19 or just simply used the non-run flat tires that may not be released yet but they will offer as optional for those that don't want run-flats or those that will want to track the car, surely the only option is not going to be run-flats, its a track oriented car.

    Jul 27, 2005 4:36:56 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    They should release precise information about thier assault on the Ring. Just having Dave Hill the Corvette program manager declare a lap time over dinner at a Sonoma winery is not enough.

    They don't realize that European audiences take this stuff very seriously, they want exact details and to not give them can poison what fraction of a percent of good will they have in those markets.

    The current GM VP of Worldwide Communications is their former VP of European Communications. He obviously is none too clever about the high end sports car market. If they expect new buyers to respect the ZO6, the least GM can do is to respect the intelligence of prospective foreign buyers and the people who influence them.

    I suspect that the whole point of the Ring lap time is just a prop to be used for marketing in the US. If GM is serious about making the Corvette a respected product outside the US, they have a lot to learn.

    Jul 27, 2005 4:54:50 PM

    666 Z06
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    All will be explained when the embargo is lifted and October issues hit the stands.

    Jul 27, 2005 4:57:20 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Carlos, the only tires to be offered will be run flats.

    As for the rest of it, even if the car did everything they say it did, and the engineering team used the two weeks to make final suspension settings for production (the car was delayed for production until after the Ring testing by Magnussen), and even if they added seconds to not embarrass Porsche(LOL,they have poorly handled the entire affair. I suspect that they are more naive than deceptive.

    Both the GM and Ford USA peope are so ignorant as to what non US markets expect product and informationwise, that if you met them, you would quickly realize that they couldnt sell whores on a troop train.

    Jul 27, 2005 5:03:34 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    What is the reason behind run flats anyway? Even though the technology may have improved significantly, people buying a car strictly for performance could care less in most cases.

    Give them a can of fix-a-flat and a AAA card instead.

    - J

    Jul 27, 2005 5:10:42 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Carlos, the only tires to be offered will be run flats.



    I'm confused Jim, I can't believe that in a car as the Z06 you can't fit anything except run-flats. I mean, they are much improved over the previous gen of run-flats but they are no performance or track suitable tires, they are inferior to any maxperformance summer tire out there and even those have a difficult time at the track (overheat, wear out too quickly, etc.)
    They have to offer a solution to those wanting to track the car, including r-compound tires (whats the dry-sump for then if its going to have run flats)... it would be such a shame, so much potential the Z06 has a a track car but no normal tires? its like offering the GT3 with only a old sportomatic (4-gear slush box of the early 911's)) as the tranny

    Jul 27, 2005 5:44:21 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Hoosier will be the first to offer track tires for it.

    Since Corvette plans a 7000 car run for 2006,Im sure that other tire companies will offer non run flat street tires for it.

    The reason it comes with run flats is to save weight from having a spare tire and wheel. The distances in the US are much greater between towns, so to many, run flats makes sense.

    Who wants to be stranded 100 miles from any town with a flat Michelin Pilot Cup tire and no spare? At least thats what GMs lawyers tell them.

    Jul 27, 2005 6:01:17 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    I understand why they offer the run-flats and its a good option for those that want it (I wouldn't), I just thought that they were not going to be any non-runflats made for the Z06 rear sizes, which is what shocked me.
    Will corvette offer those "normal" tires as an option (like the F430) or will onwners have to buy it with run flats and then ditch them for normal ones?

    Even for magazine tests, etc. it would be advantageous to offer the version with normal tires IMO so as to perform closer to its full potential instead of the run flats. If the Z06 could come with normal tires also then it would be fair play to offer those for magazine tests.

    Jul 27, 2005 6:07:29 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:

    Will corvette offer those "normal" tires as an option (like the F430) or will onwners have to buy it with run flats and then ditch them for normal ones?


    There's no indication that you will be able to buy the car with normal tires. I think this is partly due to concern about legal liability (flat tires at high speed could cause alot of wrecks that runflats might avoid). Of course, many drivers will replace them with PS2's or DOT-R's, etc., but that leaves an out for GM in lawsuits, since the car was "modified" from stock condition.

    Jul 27, 2005 6:09:59 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    I doubt there will be any factory tire option.

    Dealers might offer different tire/wheel options or buyers can just drive to the nearest tire store, of wich there are zillions of in the US.

    Jul 27, 2005 6:18:43 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    I see, thats a shame I think. Thanks Jim & Grant.

    Jul 27, 2005 6:24:26 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    I see, thats a shame I think. Thanks Jim & Grant.


    I think the stock tires can be considered the "break-in" tires. Just as the motor can't be redlined when new, these can be the training tires.

    I imagine the owners of Z06's will be changing tires rather often with such a torquey and powerful car, so they'll likely be used up in short order, so you can replace them with real rubber

    Jul 27, 2005 6:34:24 PM

    LowPolarMoment
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Is it really a given that you can't make a run flat tire that offers truly high performance?

    Jul 27, 2005 6:36:44 PM

    666 Z06
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    ...they have poorly handled the entire affair. I suspect that they are more naive than deceptive.




    It does have the appearance of being poorly handled by GM, but I'm not so sure.

    For several weeks, the press have been posession of accurate information about Magnussen's run but GM asked them not to release it until a certain time, to ensure that weekly and Internet publications wouldn't have an unfar advantage over monthly publications and the information would be released from all sources simultaneously. Most likely members of the press were present to witness Magnussen's run and we'll all hear about it soon.

    So far all we've seen is speculative spy reports from a few in the automotive press. It is these inaccurate spy reports, with varying information, that have caused this confusion and controversy. David Hill made mention of the time only becuse the information was already out.

    Jul 27, 2005 6:43:35 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    I see, thats a shame I think. Thanks Jim & Grant.


    I think the stock tires can be considered the "break-in" tires. Just as the motor can't be redlined when new, these can be the training tires.

    I imagine the owners of Z06's will be changing tires rather often with such a torquey and powerful car, so they'll likely be used up in short order, so you can replace them with real rubber



    Thats true, thats another way of looking at it

    Jul 27, 2005 6:51:28 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: LowPolarMoment

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Is it really a given that you can't make a run flat tire that offers truly high performance?



    To my knowledge, no. They have to make a compromise in the contrustion for run-flat ability while normal summer performance tires don't, they just have to worry about obtaining max performance (they are as stiff only as performance dictates, no more no less, they are lighter leading to decreased unsprung weight, probaly softer compounds, etc.)

    I have read though that besides the advanacement in technology of runflats, one of the most important factors for extracting maximum potential for the run-flats is actually taking into account the special run-flats stiff carcass and special characteristics when designing the suspennsions and chasis of the car in question. I.e. designing the car for the run-flats, like the new M5 (I think it was the M5?) and the Z06, and that was one of the problems with the handling of the run flats in previous cars, fitting run flats in non-runflat designed cars as optional led to even poorer performance.

    Jul 27, 2005 7:32:12 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: 666 Z06

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    666 Z06 said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    ...they have poorly handled the entire affair. I suspect that they are more naive than deceptive.




    It does have the appearance of being poorly handled by GM, but I'm not so sure.

    For several weeks, the press have been posession of accurate information about Magnussen's run but GM asked them not to release it until a certain time, to ensure that weekly and Internet publications wouldn't have an unfar advantage over monthly publications and the information would be released from all sources simultaneously. Most likely members of the press were present to witness Magnussen's run and we'll all hear about it soon.

    So far all we've seen is speculative spy reports from a few in the automotive press. It is these inaccurate spy reports, with varying information, that have caused this confusion and controversy. David Hill made mention of the time only becuse the information was already out.



    Well I doubt if any one will slap Dave around for it, but it would have been better if he hadnt confirmed an exact number.

    I can understand the print vrs net lead times and GMs desire to have all their boats lined up for the launch.

    But GM does not seem to really understand Ring time claims in the European market and the impact of the internet as a viral marketing tool.

    Not coming forth with more and precise information after the cat is out of the bag makes Corvette's claim seem deceptive to the exact target group of product influencers they need badly to help build interest and sales in the car.

    European sports car audiences don't have any love for the Corvette in the first place. Its difficult to convince them that the new Z06 engine is 98% the same as whats in winning C6R FIA race car. So If Bob Lutz wants to not only win in FIA racing, but also win European buyers, he needs a more market savvy and sophisticated team to cooridinate Corvette PR and marketing in Europe.

    Jul 27, 2005 8:20:45 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Hoosier will be the first to offer track tires for it.

    Since Corvette plans a 7000 car run for 2006,Im sure that other tire companies will offer non run flat street tires for it.

    The reason it comes with run flats is to save weight from having a spare tire and wheel. The distances in the US are much greater between towns, so to many, run flats makes sense.

    Who wants to be stranded 100 miles from any town with a flat Michelin Pilot Cup tire and no spare? At least thats what GMs lawyers tell them.



    Only 7000 to be built for the year? WOW performance and exclusivity for $65,000. Hell Porsche will build that many in a month.

    Jul 27, 2005 8:33:36 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Porsche sold around 8,000 911-based models last year (including 997, 997S, TT, TTS, TTSCab, C4SCab, GT3, GT2, etc.). How many total Corvettes were sold?

    If you compare 7,000 Z06's to the top tier of 911's (GT2 and GT3), then I think there are at least 12:1 more Z06's (or monthly totals of Z06's equal annual total of GT2/3), Nick ...

    Jul 27, 2005 9:24:21 PM

    666 Z06
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    When it comes to exclusivity, you have to pay to play.

    Jul 27, 2005 9:26:45 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: 666 Z06

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    666 Z06 said:
    When it comes to exclusivity, you have to pay to play.


    Personally, I'd rather not pay and take the more "popular" product in most cases. Exclusivity means nothing to me - just quality and performance. Sometimes those things go together and sometimes not. I was just giving a little ribbing to Nick who MUST have exclusivity

    Jul 27, 2005 9:50:52 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Porsche sold around 8,000 911-based models last year (including 997, 997S, TT, TTS, TTSCab, C4SCab, GT3, GT2, etc.). How many total Corvettes were sold?

    If you compare 7,000 Z06's to the top tier of 911's (GT2 and GT3), then I think there are at least 12:1 more Z06's (or monthly totals of Z06's equal annual total of GT2/3), Nick ...



    Your number cannot be correct. I believe they produce close to 25,000 if not more per year.

    Exclusivity does matter when performance is no longer the reason to buy the product. We now know that the Z06 will spank most if not all 911's whether they be on a track or drag racing. So why buy the Porsche?

    What is its redeeming value if it does not have the advantage in performance,exclusivity, warranty (the Z06 is warranted for track work) and most important resale value.

    Gentlemen, quit buying because of your boyhood dreams and be more responsible to yourself and your family.

    Jul 27, 2005 9:54:54 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Nick - This is my source:

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/07/27/porsche_panamera/index.html

    "The company expects to sell at least 20,000 Panameras per year, according to the announcement, which would make it the company's most popular model by far. Porsche is currently on track to sell about 9,600 Boxster sports cars this year, about 14,000 Cayenne SUVs and about 8,000 911 sports cars."

    Jul 27, 2005 10:09:54 PM

    LowPolarMoment
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    That's a mistake. 911 sales were over 23,000 cars in the first 10 months of fiscal year 2004/2005. Last fiscal year they sold 26,650 911's and the year before it was 29,511.

    Jul 27, 2005 10:20:29 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: LowPolarMoment

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    The discrepency could be due to U.S. sales vs. worldwide. Are you guys saying the 20k+ figure is for the U.S. only?

    Jul 27, 2005 11:38:03 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Nick - This is my source:

    http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/07/27/porsche_panamera/index.html

    "The company expects to sell at least 20,000 Panameras per year, according to the announcement, which would make it the company's most popular model by far. Porsche is currently on track to sell about 9,600 Boxster sports cars this year, about 14,000 Cayenne SUVs and about 8,000 911 sports cars."



    The company is fooling its customers leading them to believe their cars are exclusive. In reality far from it. The Z06 will be reasonable exclusive.

    Don't you understand that Porsche is the GM of sport cars. They have a zillion different models many with the same frame and parts but sold with different options. GM all the way.

    Jul 28, 2005 12:03:01 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Nick Nick Nick .......

    Oh yes....tar Porsche with the platform engineering brush as if they are just comon rubbish. You can paint Aston Martin with that also if you wish. Big deal.

    I think you are a tad over obsessed with "exclusivity." If you are sooooo concerned with exclusivity, you could always get divorced and then marry Dennis Rodman and drive around town in a custom stretched yellow Mini Cooper convertible.

    Would that be exclusive enough for you???

    Jul 28, 2005 3:00:22 AM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Nick Nick Nick .......

    Oh yes....tar Porsche with the platform engineering brush as if they are just comon rubbish. You can paint Aston Martin with that also if you wish. Big deal.

    I think you are a tad over obsessed with "exclusivity." If you are sooooo concerned with exclusivity, you could always get divorced and then marry Dennis Rodman and drive around town in a custom stretched yellow Mini Cooper convertible.

    Would that be exclusive enough for you???



    Comrade Jim quit thinking like a proletariat. Those that do envitably become one.

    Exclusivity is what distinguishes the important and rare from the common. Porsche suffer horrendous depreciation because they are VERY common. Porsche as a company made a conscious decision to make it so. What they did not do was adjust prices accordingly. Thus their owners pay a steep price for their Porsche ownership. However Porsche as a company makes a lot of money.

    Jul 28, 2005 4:14:51 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: More Z06 Corvette 'Ring Controversy

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Nick Nick Nick .......

    Oh yes....tar Porsche with the platform engineering brush as if they are just comon rubbish. You can paint Aston Martin with that also if you wish. Big deal.

    I think you are a tad over obsessed with "exclusivity." If you are sooooo concerned with exclusivity, you could always get divorced and then marry Dennis Rodman and drive around town in a custom stretched yellow Mini Cooper convertible.

    Would that be exclusive enough for you???



    Comrade Jim quit thinking like a proletariat. Those that do envitably become one.

    Exclusivity is what distinguishes the important and rare from the common. Porsche suffer horrendous depreciation because they are VERY common. Porsche as a company made a conscious decision to make it so. What they did not do was adjust prices accordingly. Thus their owners pay a steep price for their Porsche ownership. However Porsche as a company makes a lot of money.



    Thank you for saving me!

    Upon careful reflection and self re-education I realize that your La Jolla Party theory is indeed correct!

    Considering that Porsche themselves stated that a 996
    cost them approx only 10% more to build than a 986 is
    proof enough.

    Only the marketing gods deep inside the Porsche HQ bunker
    know just why a GT2 was priced at 5 times a base Boxster!

    You not have only saved me from the proletariat, but also probably kept me from the clutches of the subproletariat!

    Thanx Comrade Nick

     
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