Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info - Page1

Jul 19, 2005 6:58:27 AM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: Fiorentina 1

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Not that it matters to this thread debate (at all) but I'll be test-driving a Euro C6 Targa today. With the cheap dollar it's a bargain over here in Europe (with the discount I can secure, half the prize of a 997 S

). I'll see if it can mean anything in terms of sensation, compared to my 911 (I have my doubts there...). Will keep you posted.

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Jul 19, 2005 4:56:51 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Dr. Carrera said:
Not that it matters to this thread debate (at all) but I'll be test-driving a Euro C6 Targa today. With the cheap dollar it's a bargain over here in Europe (with the discount I can secure, half the prize of a 997 S ). I'll see if it can mean anything in terms of sensation, compared to my 911 (I have my doubts there...). Will keep you posted.

I was hoping it would be cheap over there. I'm not sure while it's so expensive in some countries...

I think I would NEVER buy one if it cost as much as a 997, but for 1/2 price of 997S, I think it's a much more attractive idea!

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Jul 20, 2005 1:20:32 AM

GT3Dominic: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 32, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

One thing for sure it drives on a particular heritage."When the Sting Ray debuted in late 1962, things came together for Guldstrand as a pro-level racer. He preferred the lighter convertible for its lower center of gravity, but the high-performance Z06 model came only as a coupe. Corvette chief engineer Zora Arkus-Duntov had taken a liking to Guldstrand and gave him the parts needed to convert his convertible to Z06 specs. In 1963, Guldstrand drove it to his first of three consecutive SCCA Pacific Coast Championships." Read the whole article here:http://motortrend.com/features/performance/112_0304_guld/index.html

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Jul 20, 2005 6:46:32 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Fiorentina 1

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Fiorentina 1 said:
...But, he never gets calls from Manthey or Alzen to drive their Porsches.....

Has Magnussen been offered a spot in these cars?

For a driver that is not currently earning his money with professional racecar driving von Saurma is very fast. Besides that he has driven an abundance of performance cars in the recent years - you should watch him drive on the Nordschleife!
Sure there are better drivers out there, Barrichello is not as fast as Schumacher as well. So what?

I hate all this bragging and flaming here, I'd say most of you wouldn't even meet von Saurma's laptime...
He is a pretty good resemblance of the typical sportscar driver.

What I don't understand is the fact that the suspension setup is pretty insufficient, especially on bumpy surfaces as on the Nordschleife. According to v. Saurma the leaf springs are way to soft, whereas the dampers are much too hard - or was it the other way 'round? This is pretty surprising since the car was honed on the Nordschleife as well!

Regarding laptimes in other papers this doesn't look too odd - in fact the Hockenheim (short circuit) time is pretty much the same as the 997 S's with PASM suspension - this circuit is like most others pretty even and demands a lot of grip and lack of body movement. Due to the wide stance of the Vette this is no real problem, so all these laptimes should correspond in some way.

As a bottom result the Vette's dominating factor seems to be the engine, with the chassis and interior still lacking refinement and detail. If you are willing to accept that and pay a lower price than on the Porsche, go for it.

Dr. Carrera, I also considered test-driving one of these. So what's your conclusion?

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Jul 20, 2005 10:21:35 PM

turbolite: Veteran; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 1012, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 26, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

I would say the car is pretty much 'unsorted'. and what also should be taken into considertion is the fact that its a 5 gear car only in reality as the 6th is way too long. this is a ridiculous proposition for a serious sportscar...

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Jul 20, 2005 10:24:57 PM

turbolite: Veteran; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 1012, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 26, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

..and thats why a Z06 - if it has a decent performance- is in fact a possible and realistic alternative to the new 997 turbo or gt3...

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Jul 20, 2005 10:25:22 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: turbolite

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
turbolite said:
I would say the car is pretty much 'unsorted'. and what also should be taken into considertion is the fact that its a 5 gear car only in reality as the 6th is way too long. this is a ridiculous proposition for a serious sportscar...

Yeah, they use that crazy gearing to achieve 25 miles/gallon fuel economy. That helps it avoid gas-guzzler taxes in the USA. It's not helpful for performance, but there is a reason (not a good one)

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Jul 21, 2005 12:20:25 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Changing the final drive gear ratio in a Corvette transaxle is not that expensive.

In fact nothing on the car is as expensive parts wise as a
997.

Katech designed the engine for the new Z06 and builds the for the winning Corvette FIA race team.

http://www.katechengines.com/street_performance/engine_packages.php

Their 7 liter 427 street engine costs approx $19K. Wich is a little bit more than a Boxster rebuilt crate engine and way less than a new Porsche GT3 motor.

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Jul 21, 2005 1:17:56 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Changing the final drive gear ratio in a Corvette transaxle is not that expensive.

True, but if I had my way, I'd like to restack all the gears as well. Closer ratios make a much bigger difference than just changing the final drive (but that costs alot more and I don't even know if/what gears would be available). Anyways, with 470ft-lbs it's not nearly as big an issue as it is with most sports cars...

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Jul 21, 2005 1:24:22 AM

mr.clean: Junior; Loc: New York City; Posts: 55, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Ok, I have a c6 as well as a carrera 3.6 so my conclusion living with both is yes the springs are too soft but the dampers are not bad. when you go over frost heaves you get a forward rolling sensation and up which is the springs being a little soft and the dampers not controlling them well enough. Yes the interior is not as nice as the porsche the carpet is a little chincy and the leather came from a very tired cow, but the car is twice as comfortable to ride in over distance than the porsche and the seats are surprising comfy which I can say the porsche seats are not. As far as durability goes... I have had problems with both my carrera and the vette. IMHO the porsche should be a lot more durable than it is and they should charge a grand more for the vette and fix the chince.

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Jul 21, 2005 1:27:45 AM

mr.clean: Junior; Loc: New York City; Posts: 55, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

forget restacking the gears they are close enough with the z51 package and you get a 2.73 with the z and a 3.43 with the vanilla vette. The car is really quick that is if your shifter decides to work properly it is a bit balky.

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Jul 21, 2005 2:50:09 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: mr.clean

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Recent production cars have some really CHEAP
shift linkage.

The 997 has a particulary nasty weak plastic connection
piece that when breaks leaves you with no way into reverse.

Corvette has obviously never heard of a precision linkage
because of the whole V8 history thing. Muncie Rock Crusher mentality still exists. They need to get over the "big engine means truck like shifter" thinking.

Both really benefit from B&M's shifter kit. Porsche uses
that brand as the option for their sport shifter.

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Jul 21, 2005 8:52:05 AM

tso: Senior; Loc: Denmark , United Arab Emirates; Posts: 747, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Quote:
Fiorentina 1 said:
...But, he never gets calls from Manthey or Alzen to drive their Porsches.....

Has Magnussen been offered a spot in these cars?

Come on... Magnussen has been driving Formula 1, champcar, Audi R8 factory team cars and is now an official GM driver with quite some success. He is also having a number of development jobs for GM. With all due respect why should he put himself into a GT2 class car ?

If looking at Von Saurma I do not know his level and have no reason to doubt his qualifications, but even in professionel racing you can have quite a difference in laptimes if you have 2 or 3 drivers in the same car. Therefore it should not be impossible that somebody other than von saurma goes out and drives the 22 km Nring 5 secs faster. This though does not give us any comparison and thus it is useless as anything else than a record attempt. I believe that the Auto Sport tests are a very good indicator for what the cars are capable of if we want to compare on even terms.
Thomas

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Jul 26, 2005 3:38:47 PM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Well I had the opportunity to test-drive a EURO-Coupé C6 a few days ago and basically you get a lot of HP and torque for very litle money. On the other hand, compared to a 911, the car displays a huge gap in terms of engineering. I found the suspension to be particularly old-fashioned in this respect. This leads to bumpy and shaky car-dynamics when you go over poor (parts of) roads. The car is also excessively sensitive to tram-lining. The steering wheel is overly servo-assisted and does not give any feedback to the driver on road and grip conditions. Although I have not tried it out, I do not see myself enjoying high-speed track-events with as much confidence as with my 996.

Esthetics:
What's great about the car is that you have a semi-convertible and a coupé in one. Although this one appears slimmer than previous models, overall the design is something you like or hate. Here in Europe, Corvette's still have this die-hard reputation of "pimp-cars", ideal for those who like to posing while cruising around city boulevards. The cockpit of the car does not look like how a supercar should look. The steering wheel is not how a sporstcars' steering wheel should be shaped. The overall interior finishing quality is ok but that just says it.

To sum it up, I would not fancy this car

.

N.B. The more I try other cars, the more I realize that the "There's no substitute" gimmick is plain truth

.

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Jul 26, 2005 3:49:39 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

...yes I agree, however lately Porsche's slogan should also be...

"There is no R&D"

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Jul 26, 2005 4:00:50 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Dr. Carrera said:The car is also excessively sensitive to tram-lining. The steering wheel is overly servo-assisted and does not give any feedback to the driver on road and grip conditions.

It tramlines so much because of the huge front tires. I totally agree about the steering - it's really pretty bad (no feedback or precision compared to Porsche). I hope this is improved for the Z06.

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Jul 26, 2005 5:03:06 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
...yes I agree, however lately Porsche's slogan should also be...

"There is no R&D"

I disagree or misunderstood you, just how do you develop a car with 355Hp that can lap the ring under 8mins with just 355HP and street tires without any R&D? the 997 is a huge step foward over the 996, maybe not in exterior aethetics since its a timeless design that is chaged only slightly in time, but exterior design is not what I'd call R&D anyway. Then comes the 997GT3 and the 997Turbo... what i do agree is that they charge you extra for any improvements (i.e. the 997S should of been the base 997 IMO) but thats the same with any sportcar manufacturer in every model change.

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Jul 26, 2005 5:27:12 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Porsche R&D is more for evolution than revolution. The 997S is as competent as the 996GT3 was, thats their traditional
way of doing things.

Porsche executives are saying about the Cayman is their optimium "drivers" because it delivers the best combination of dynamics and driver involvement. Thats impressive for the Boxster's evolution.

Porsche could have spent their Cayman and Panamera funding money on developing a Lamborghini Gallardo/Ferrari F430 competitor, but they didnt.

If they had, it wouldn't have provided them with the sales volume and ROI that the Cayman has and that the Panamara probably will.

Porsche has stated that they want to compete with BMW's sales volume. To do that they needed the Cayenne and they need a four door sedan. So R&D for new models is spent more for new model line market expansion and the evolution of their existing sports cars.

It amazing that they put the CGT into production, but dont expect a sub 200K V8 version of it anytime soon. I wish they would, but dont hold your breath!

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Jul 26, 2005 5:30:08 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

So you think that the 997 is a step that we should've waited 7 years for? Do you really feel that the engine difference is even 5 years of R&D? Isn't the power nearly equal to the anniversary edition of the 996? (345 ... 355) Should we have to pay through our nose for that "upgrade"? Is it not true that 911s nearly make 40K in profit for Porsche per car built? Name one sportscar manufacturer who puts out a product that is nearly identical and charges more. (the 430 is a huge upgrade on the 360)

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Jul 26, 2005 5:39:01 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
So you think that the 997 is a step that we should've waited 7 years for? Name one sportscar manufacturer who puts out a product that is nearly identical and charges more. (the 430 is a huge upgrade on the 360)

You're right, the F430 is a also a similarly minor visual upgrade from the F360 (like the 997 vs. 996), but it is WAY further developed technically (much more than 997 vs. 996).

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Jul 26, 2005 5:45:17 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

The reality of the situation is that the cars have improved enough so that people still buy them. I've only been following Porsche (and sports cars in general) since the introduction of the 986 and 996. It seems like they have always improved the cars just enough, and kept the price just within reach of what the market would bear, since they believe there are no perfect substitutes for their products. The second thing do is create new demand through "new" models, and multi-leveled models.

So while enthuisiasts clamor for larger jumps in the evolution, Porsche will need more market pressure before they are inclined to provide it. I doubt sales would go up much if Porsche didn't make as much money on each sale, so what's the difference? People buy them anyway. Haven't been following sales trends, but certainly Porsche responds in ways they feel necessary to keep their volume high.

The huge jump to the F430 for example was no doubt a response to Lamborghini, and to ensure the 997 Turbo does not overwhelm it.

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Jul 26, 2005 5:59:53 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: Justin

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Justin said:
The huge jump to the F430 for example was no doubt a response to Lamborghini, and to ensure the 997 Turbo does not overwhelm it.

That's the problem... even Ferrari sees the problem of public perception and their marketing of premium products.

Porsche on the otherhand seems to have a plethora of blind faith supporters that don't want to acknowledge what is happening... Porsche is putting out a product that they know will be purchased but are not putting out the top-notch stuff that they needed to to get to this level.

I was a participant in 3 Porsche-sponsored studies. I can honestly say that the most effort Porsche put into their products was the transition to the 993. Now it seems they are just trying to be marginal.

Best isn't necessarily profitable and that is what Porsche is all about these days.

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Jul 26, 2005 6:22:12 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
So you think that the 997 is a step that we should've waited 7 years for? Do you really feel that the engine difference is even 5 years of R&D? Isn't the power nearly equal to the anniversary edition of the 996? (345 ... 355) Should we have to pay through our nose for that "upgrade"? Is it not true that 911s nearly make 40K in profit for Porsche per car built? Name one sportscar manufacturer who puts out a product that is nearly identical and charges more. (the 430 is a huge upgrade on the 360)

The HP is not a consecuence of R&D, extracting HP is easy, so I agree with your that Porsche should offer more HP on the carreras (base with 350Hp and S with 380HP IMO) but that doens't have to do with R&D, its has to do with profits, powerkits, the flat-6 atmospheric engine HP potential, etc. So in terms of the whole package, chasis, suspensions, interior, quaility, steering, etc. the 997 is significantly developed over the 996. That was my point. If you want to talk about offereing more HP, then thas a different story with which I agree.

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Jul 26, 2005 6:28:09 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
So you think that the 997 is a step that we should've waited 7 years for? Name one sportscar manufacturer who puts out a product that is nearly identical and charges more. (the 430 is a huge upgrade on the 360)

You're right, the F430 is a also a similarly minor visual upgrade from the F360 (like the 997 vs. 996), but it is WAY further developed technically (much more than 997 vs. 996).

Yes but look at the price difference between the 360 and the 430... they jumped a whole model class, as much in performance/development than in price. Its not a fair comparison.

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Jul 26, 2005 6:33:34 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

It's not just about HP but the actual R&D, options, PRICE, performance.

Is the 997 a jump from what you could get with a 996 and a bunch of options. In other words, wasn't this technology already developed by Porsche back when but only offered as options.

Compare performance of a base 996 and a base 997. Doesn't it trouble you that a sportscar manufacturer puts out something that doesn't clearly outperform its predecessor one way or another? Especially during these times when other manufacturers are going all out to catch and surpass specialty companies such as Porsche.

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Jul 26, 2005 6:46:05 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Carlos,
At least in the U.S., the price jump of the F430 doesn't seem to have stopped many people who could have afforded a new 360. But I do see your point. Marginal performance per dollar added. Though this is case where the Vette wins

Percentage wise the C6 Z06 is a lot more than the C5 version though.

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Jul 26, 2005 6:48:41 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

The other thing we have to remember is the level of enthuisiast we are compared to the average 911 buyer. We'll complain all day long. I don't think most 911 buyers feel this way, because there is no direct substitute for them, but I could be wrong.

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Jul 26, 2005 6:55:27 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Yes but look at the price difference between the 360 and the 430... they jumped a whole model class, as much in performance/development than in price. Its not a fair comparison.

What is the price increase from base 360 to base 430? I know the 360 went up alot over the course of its reign, but I thought the increase to the 430 was around 10% or so (not a whole model class increase). I can't remember...

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Jul 26, 2005 7:08:33 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Yes but look at the price difference between the 360 and the 430... they jumped a whole model class, as much in performance/development than in price. Its not a fair comparison.

What is the price increase from base 360 to base 430? I know the 360 went up alot over the course of its reign, but I thought the increase to the 430 was around 10% or so (not a whole model class increase). I can't remember...

I don't remember the figures but it was something like twice the price difference between the 996 and the 997"S".

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Jul 26, 2005 7:14:57 PM

LowPolarMoment: Senior; Loc: Boca Raton, FL; Posts: 725, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

Here in FL, 360's sold for WAY over list price during the entire production run. Dramatically raising the price for the F430 is just a way of Ferrari getting the MSRP more in line with what the market will bear. That way Ferrari makes the extra money instead of the dealer

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