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    Jul 17, 2005 2:31:58 PM

    Grant
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    More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Reported on another website, Dave Hill, the Corvette Team manager just announced the following times for the various Corvette products at a Banquet in Sonoma, CA last night:

    7:43 at the the Ring for the C6 Z06 (2006 model)

    C5 Z06 (2004 model) did 7:56

    2006 C6 (not Z06) did 7:59.

    You make take this info with any amount of skepticism you like.

    The obvious question is why were they able to make the C6 go 16 sec faster than the one in the Sport Auto Test. For that I only have one explanation to offer:

    Although all Euro-delivered C6's are said to have Z51 package (better gearing, stiffer springs, shocks, additional fluid coolers), supposedly, a large number of exported C6's are equipped with the active Magnetic shock absorbers that provide better comfort but poorer performance than the sport shocks/springs that are standard on the Z51 in the US. The Sport Auto car could've had this option (similar to PASM).

    http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=454018#post454018

    Jul 17, 2005 5:50:23 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    Grant said:

    The obvious question is why were they able to make the C6 go 16 sec faster than the one in the Sport Auto Test. For that I only have one explanation to offer:




    This Corvette team manager probably had some good glasses of red wine before making the announcement

    P.S.: Do you really think they sent a car with comfort setup to sportauto for the supertest? Honestly, I think they are cheating without even knowing about the sportauto test results (yet)...

    Jul 17, 2005 5:51:20 PM

    MKW
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    7:43 with the skanky OEM Good Year run-flat tires ?

    Jul 17, 2005 6:42:41 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: MKW

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Saurma's time with the C6 is 16 second slower than GM's official claims, but thats not due to a slightly more confortable suspension setting (its still Z51) since 16 seconds is way more than what that could be responsible for, 16 secoonds is 5 times greater than the difference between the -20mm with rear LSD vs the electronic sport-PASM, or 5 times the difference between PASM in sport vs PASM in normal for example.

    The outgoing type 996's GT2 version in its introductory MkI form of 460HP already did 7:46 with Saurma, considering GM "factory testing" laps have always been quite more "optimistic" than Sport Auto's & Saurma's standarised lap times, the new Z06 is quite quite far from the rumored 7:40 that filled 10 pages of a thread, that was ridiculous as I mentined in the other thread, not even for factory "claims".

    The Z06 is cheap, yes (at least in the US), but the next GT3 with only 400HP is likely to match its times. Its a good thing they dropped a big liter 500HP engine in it.

    Anyone guessing Saurma's lap times of the ne Z06? My guess is between 7:50-7:55...

    Jul 17, 2005 7:14:00 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    I'd also like to see the lap times for the C6 Z06 around regular circuits like Hockenheim. Just for comparative purposes.

    - J

    Jul 17, 2005 8:50:20 PM

    deedee
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    Reply to: Justin

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    I don't buy factory claimed numbers at all..... not even American carmag test results... way too biased toward their domastic products

    Jul 17, 2005 8:56:00 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Reported on another website, Dave Hill, the Corvette Team manager just announced the following times for the various Corvette products at a Banquet in Sonoma, CA last night:

    7:43 at the the Ring for the C6 Z06 (2006 model)

    C5 Z06 (2004 model) did 7:56

    2006 C6 (not Z06) did 7:59.

    You make take this info with any amount of skepticism you like.

    The obvious question is why were they able to make the C6 go 16 sec faster than the one in the Sport Auto Test. For that I only have one explanation to offer:





    Dave Hill is FOS! With this annoucement, it puts to rest any notion that a Z06 could do the 'ring in 7:40 min. But, it doesn't make any sense that a Blue Devil with 100hp more and 200lb less weight could only yield a 3 sec. difference.

    I believe the Blue Devil time of 7:40 to be factual, but, the Z06 should be 8-10 sec slower. Therefore, I'll stick to my previous prediction of 7:48 min.

    With regards to the C6, I think both Dave Hill and Horst von Saurma are both FOS! I'll bet the true 'ring time lies somewhere between 7:59 and 8:15.

    Jul 17, 2005 9:10:05 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Justin

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Lets not mince any words here about this.

    Its quite obvious that David Hill is a liar.

    Its also obvious that Magnussen, who set the lap time and is a Le Mans winner, is a liar also.

    Its also obvious that Saurma is a better driver
    than Magnussen.

    Magnussen must be not also a liar, a puppet
    of GM, a conspirator with Dave Hill the Corvette Engineering manager, and worse yet, his Le Mans
    victory's and talent count for nothing compared
    to Saurma.

    Yes. They are all liars and only Saurma can be trusted
    to provide valid lap times. Saurma should just change
    his name to Jesus of Nurburgring. We should have all
    track officials swear their honesty on copies of
    German auto magazines.

    Even more, according to Carlo's inferred theories, By extension the Corvette should not even be winning FIA
    races and the Porsche GT3 should also be winning the GT class above what it races in!

    You guys must be drinking to much bottled Porsche water
    to believe what you are saying.

    Jul 17, 2005 9:41:06 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Lets not mince any words here about this.

    Its quite obvious that David Hill is a liar.

    Its also obvious that Magnussen, who set the lap time and is a Le Mans winner, is a liar also.

    Its also obvious that Saurma is a better driver
    than Magnussen.

    Magnussen must be not also a liar, a puppet
    of GM, a conspirator with Dave Hill the Corvette Engineering manager, and worse yet, his Le Mans
    victory's and talent count for nothing compared
    to Saurma.

    Yes. They are all liars and only Saurma can be trusted
    to provide valid lap times. Saurma should just change
    his name to Jesus of Nurburgring. We should have all
    track officials swear their honesty on copies of
    German auto magazines.

    Even more, according to Carlo's inferred theories, By extension the Corvette should not even be winning FIA
    races and the Porsche GT3 should also be winning the GT class above what it races in!

    You guys must be drinking to much bottled Porsche water
    to believe what you are saying.



    Not liars. I do however doubt that GM provided a fully stock car.

    Jul 17, 2005 9:50:12 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Lets not mince any words here about this.

    Its quite obvious that David Hill is a liar.

    Its also obvious that Magnussen, who set the lap time and is a Le Mans winner, is a liar also.

    Its also obvious that Saurma is a better driver
    than Magnussen.

    Magnussen must be not also a liar, a puppet
    of GM, a conspirator with Dave Hill the Corvette Engineering manager, and worse yet, his Le Mans
    victory's and talent count for nothing compared
    to Saurma.

    Yes. They are all liars and only Saurma can be trusted
    to provide valid lap times. Saurma should just change
    his name to Jesus of Nurburgring. We should have all
    track officials swear their honesty on copies of
    German auto magazines.

    Even more, according to Carlo's inferred theories, By extension the Corvette should not even be winning FIA
    races and the Porsche GT3 should also be winning the GT class above what it races in!

    You guys must be drinking to much bottled Porsche water
    to believe what you are saying.



    Your statements are getting more and more ridiculous.

    It is irrelevant who is a better or worse driver (Magnussen, vSaurma etc.). It is enough to know that comparisons between different cars are done on a comparable basis. That is exactly the case in the sportauto tests.

    Is this really that difficult to understand?

    I cannot stand that nonsense no longer. Sorry.

    Jul 17, 2005 9:50:18 PM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    7:43 makes sense to me for the new Z06. It's impressive for a cheaper car, but more expected than impressive for the specs of the car (simply because the car has impressive specs). (to svtrader1: I understand your logic, but I don't think it's right to compare the C6 Z06 to the blue devil yet since I'm sure the Z06 is further along in development. How can you be sure that the 7:40 for the Blue Devil is accurate?)

    The 7:59 seems the only curious number to me since it's so much lower than the Sport Auto Test number. It's also suspect because 8 minutes is a magic number at the ring and we'd all like our cars to be under it. However, it could be plausible by a combination of Grant's shock theory and also simply because the vette test driver is more used to the car. No one doubts Porsche's 7:56 Mk I GT3 number just because sport auto did slightly over 8 minutes with the car. 8 seconds for the driver and 8 seconds for the shocks is still a bit of a stretch, but there may be other things we aren't thinking about like different weather conditions.

    I still think Chevy's test driver in a Z51 C6 with proper shocks would be beaten by Walter in a 997 S -20mm, just not by 16 seconds (maybe only 5).

    Jul 17, 2005 10:13:03 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:

    The obvious question is why were they able to make the C6 go 16 sec faster than the one in the Sport Auto Test. For that I only have one explanation to offer:




    This Corvette team manager probably had some good glasses of red wine before making the announcement

    P.S.: Do you really think they sent a car with comfort setup to sportauto for the supertest? Honestly, I think they are cheating without even knowing about the sportauto test results (yet)...



    You claim GM is cheating.

    What is your evidence other than your own supposition?

    Mercedes and AMG were caught out on their claims at Nardo for SL55 accelleration times, but what knowledge do you have that GM is actually is willing to Lie about the Z)6 times at the 'ring?

    Jul 17, 2005 10:21:49 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Even more, according to Carlo's inferred theories, By extension the Corvette should not even be winning FIA
    races and the Porsche GT3 should also be winning the GT class above what it races in!



    Now you are getting irrational o desperate Jim, I don't know what you are smoking but the street Z06 is not a GT1-class racecar (nor has the the GT3 have anything to do with the GT-class racecar either)... the Citroen Xsara WRC car is dominating the WRC championship, does that mean the Xsara VTS should lap the ring faster than a Mitsu EVO? ... lets keep racecars out of this, this is all about street car marketing.

    Jul 17, 2005 10:49:21 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    I think GM has gotten way more PR over these NBR laptimes than they would imagine even in their wildest dreams.

    Horst von Saurma of the Nürburgring = Saruman, Lord of the Rings?

    Jul 17, 2005 11:13:14 PM

    brunner
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Throw me a bone here: why did GM announce 7.43 if Magnussen did 7.40?
    How can we trust that 7.40 if not even their own people take it seriously?

    Jul 17, 2005 11:17:44 PM

    911fan
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    Reply to: brunner

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    I am with Jimflat6 on this. I do not believe the SPort Auto test. It just seems to slow for the Vette. In all tests of the C6 I have read, it is even with a 997s in all categories, perhaps giving away a few tenths in 0-60. But for it to put in such a terrible time does not seem believeable to me.

    Jul 18, 2005 12:28:12 AM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Reply to: 911fan

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    ...

    Jul 18, 2005 12:56:38 AM

    mr.clean
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    The car would not work as a mixed z-51 mag ride system. I drove the car with the mag ride and have aside from my p car a z-51 C6. The Z51 has softer springs than you might expect and it is more comfortable than the mag ride car any way. the expectation between the z51 and the c5 z06 was 75% of the z06 performance with a z51 c6.

    Jul 18, 2005 1:37:49 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: mr.clean

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Carlos, Just because Citroen does not offer a road legal race mower in Spain is no reason to complain.

    Bruner, Corvette never stated that the Z06 did a 7.40. The auto press reported that. Corvette HAS stated that it did do a 7.43 lap time.

    I dont think that the Corvette factory people or Magnussen would lie. There is no evidence that they did, only the claims of doubters shocked about the time.

    Dr. Phil, I think it is time to prime the PR pump for the Porsche Panamera.

    Porsche has designed a four door car before that did make it into production. Porsche,using thier technology and design, including a flat 6 air cooled engine,fully independent suspension,rear transaxle,etc.,designed this car for Chevrolet to build, and build they did, even some
    with factory optional turbo systems.

    I have no idea what the 'Ring lap times were for the Corvair.

    Jul 18, 2005 1:59:12 AM

    Hurst
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    I think the more this debate continues, the less the meaning of these ring times become.

    Jul 18, 2005 5:57:02 AM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    (to svtrader1: I understand your logic, but I don't think it's right to compare the C6 Z06 to the blue devil yet since I'm sure the Z06 is further along in development. How can you be sure that the 7:40 for the Blue Devil is accurate?)



    If you understand my logic, then you would understand that anything learned from the Z06 at the Nurburgring would be applied to the Blue Devil and, therefore, it makes the Blue Devil the more advance of the two. Besides, don't you know that the Z06 has already rolled of the assembly line? It's a full production car now...no more testing for the Z06.

    As to the lap time of 7:40min...well, there are 2 sources, one from Autocar and the second was a German source. The one from Autocar says it was the Blue Devil that clocked the 7:40 min. lap time. The German source said it was the Z06, but, showed a picture of a blue car and not a yellow Z06, which GM has been promoting all along. And now with Dave Hills announcement, we know the German source had mistaken the Blue Devil for the Z06. Follow?



    Maybe I just don't understand the conditions in which the 7:40 was taken. If it was just a spy on the side of the road with a stop watch, then I can't imagine they happened to catch the blue devil's fastest lap (7:40 would merely be an upper bound). How was that number obtained? I agree that the standard Z06 should be at least 5 seconds slower than the Blue Devil. To me this only means that if the 7:43 is accurate, then the Blue Devil should be better than 7:38.

    Jul 18, 2005 6:04:39 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    ...



    Jul 18, 2005 6:14:22 AM

    MKSGRM
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    MKSGR
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    And now with Dave Hills announcement, we know the German source had mistaken the Blue Devil for the Z06. Follow?



    At least we know that his announcement regarding the C6 is bull****, as it is contradicted by the test results of an independent car magazine

    I could agree that this fact does not necessarily imply that his other statements are bull**** too. However, the probability is rather high


    I tend to trust more in an independent car magazine as compared to a GM representative who is desperate to sell some cars in order to prevent the worst...

    Jul 18, 2005 6:17:39 AM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    (to svtrader1: I understand your logic, but I don't think it's right to compare the C6 Z06 to the blue devil yet since I'm sure the Z06 is further along in development. How can you be sure that the 7:40 for the Blue Devil is accurate?)



    If you understand my logic, then you would understand that anything learned from the Z06 at the Nurburgring would be applied to the Blue Devil and, therefore, it makes the Blue Devil the more advance of the two. Besides, don't you know that the Z06 has already rolled of the assembly line? It's a full production car now...no more testing for the Z06.

    As to the lap time of 7:40min...well, there are 2 sources, one from Autocar and the second was a German source. The one from Autocar says it was the Blue Devil that clocked the 7:40 min. lap time. The German source said it was the Z06, but, showed a picture of a blue car and not a yellow Z06, which GM has been promoting all along. And now with Dave Hills announcement, we know the German source had mistaken the Blue Devil for the Z06. Follow?

    Jul 18, 2005 1:50:49 PM

    964C2
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    Reply to: deedee

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    ....and you think Euro car magazines are not biased towards European cars, come on.....

    Jul 18, 2005 4:54:36 PM

    turbolite
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    what i think shows that the corvette guys are bluffing are the acceleration times of the car, they are pretty bad for that power to weight ratio. therefore i guess the package is not as con vincing as promised. and I dont believe thnat Saurma doesnt know how to drive this vette...

    Jul 18, 2005 9:02:09 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: 964C2

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    ....and you think Euro car magazines are not biased towards European cars, come on.....



    If I understand you right, what you are implying is that von Saurma did not make an effort to get the best possible lap time out of the car, because it is not an European model.

    Do you seriously think he could take a chance on someone else making him look incompetent by bettering his time by a large margin? I don't think so, because Sport Auto's supertests are his livlihood.

    Jul 18, 2005 9:51:50 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Even More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    So we have Von Saurma driving a standard Vette and Magnussen driving one with 100 more hp,74 ft lbs more torque,bigger brakes, less weight, different center of gravity, different suspension.

    And because Von Saurma is slower in a standard Vette than in previous tests, that somehow means that Magnussen was not way way way way faster in the special Vette?

    What the heck is that all about?

    Jul 18, 2005 11:55:31 PM

    svtrader1
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    ....and you think Euro car magazines are not biased towards European cars, come on.....



    If I understand you right, what you are implying is that von Saurma did not make an effort to get the best possible lap time out of the car, because it is not an European model.

    Do you seriously think he could take a chance on someone else making him look incompetent by bettering his time by a large margin? I don't think so, because Sport Auto's supertests are his livlihood.



    Sure, why not? If Porsche were pulling his strings. I have no proof of that, but, it's not inconcievable and it wouldn't be the first time.

    Besides, he could just easily say, smugly and arrogantly: Corvettes are not my cup of tea. Or something to that effect.

    Jul 19, 2005 12:26:45 AM

    Fiorentina 1
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    Reply to: svtrader1

    Re: More Corvette Nurburgring Info

    Magnussen is one of the best drivers in the world, no doubt about it! Anyone who's ever seen him in karts or F3 knows it. He didn't get a fair shake in F1, like Kristensen & McNish. I have no idea what von Saurma did other then the VLN series & Nurburgring 24 Hours. But, he never gets calls from Manthey or Alzen to drive their Porsches.....
     
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