Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: M3 time - Page1

Jul 4, 2005 10:39:37 AM

ezzie: Co-Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 242, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 5, 2004

CAR magazine - cayman article

The cayman has made the cover of august's CAR magazine and eight pages within. The magazine claim to be the first to drive an undisguised version, driven by george kacher. He gushes about it and questions the sanity of anyone buying a 911. Other interesting nuggets, cs version in 2007 and the base 250bhp model out next year. Alas no scanner, but if I can find a way, will do so. Also includes nurburgring times as follows:
gt 7.32
gt3 7.56
turbo 7.56
997s 7.59
cayman s 8.11
bmw m3 8.14
997 8.15
boxster s 8.18
boxster 8.31

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Jul 4, 2005 3:17:25 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: ezzie

Re: CAR magazine - cayman article

Thanks for the info, can't wait to get a hold of the mag.

Questions of sanity for anyone buying a 911??? Here's just another Cayman vs. 911 comparison. There will always be 911 buyers.....not many people that have had their eyes and pocket book ready for a 911 will fall for a Cayman....some, but not a lot. More like the people who always wanted a mid-engine 2 seat coupe but didn't want a Boxster now have their car.....and a great one it appears to be.

It doesn't look like that so called "terrible" 911 rear-engine design seems to hurt the 911 *that* much.....and look at that nasty M3.....just 5 or so years old now.....nippin' at the Caymans heels.....wonder what the E90 400HP version will do?

Base version at 250HP? I'm sure it will be a nice car, but the defacto HP in this league is right around (or will be) 300HP. Maybe it will perform better than it sounds on paper.

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Jul 5, 2005 11:50:19 AM

Eurospeed: Junior; Loc: New York; Posts: 101, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 26, 2004; Reply to: MikeN

Re: CAR magazine - cayman article

Quote:
and look at that nasty M3.....just 5 or so years old now.....nippin' at the Caymans heels.....wonder what the E90 400HP version will do?

The E46 M3 ring time is 8:22. 8:14 might be the e90 400HP ring time.

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Jul 5, 2005 12:55:14 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: Eurospeed

Re: CAR magazine - cayman article

Quote:
Eurospeed said:

Quote:
and look at that nasty M3.....just 5 or so years old now.....nippin' at the Caymans heels.....wonder what the E90 400HP version will do?

The E46 M3 ring time is 8:22. 8:14 might be the e90 400HP ring time.

Can't say, but I wouldn't think so.....the E90 M3 is still about two years off now and I don't think anything concrete has been posted at all given it status.

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Jul 5, 2005 5:00:00 PM

mark34: Junior; Loc: Austin, TX; Posts: 62, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2004; Reply to: MikeN

M3 time

I think it was the M3 competition package, with race tires. I believe I read that in another article or thread.

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Jul 5, 2005 6:50:05 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3995, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: ezzie

Re: CAR magazine - cayman article

Quote:
ezzie said:
The cayman has made the cover of august's CAR magazine and eight pages within. The magazine claim to be the first to drive an undisguised version, driven by george kacher.

My August, 2005, advertisers'-issue of Automobile magazine just arrived with a Cayman test, also by Georg Kacher.

He likes it very much.

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Jul 5, 2005 9:26:12 PM

Steve L.: Newbie; Loc: WA; Posts: 6, Gallery; Registered on: May 23, 2005; Reply to: mark34

Re: M3 time

Quote:
mark34 said:
I think it was the M3 competition package, with race tires. I believe I read that in another article or thread.

How recent is that time? Wasn't the M3 competition package fairly recent? Perhpas it was the M3 CSL?

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Jul 5, 2005 9:30:46 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: Steve L.

Re: M3 time

Quote:
Steve L. said:
Quote:
mark34 said:
I think it was the M3 competition package, with race tires. I believe I read that in another article or thread.

How recent is that time? Wasn't the M3 competition package fairly recent? Perhpas it was the M3 CSL?

Could be the CSL.....although the Comp package has been out for a bit now.....since the beginning of the year I believe.

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Jul 5, 2005 10:27:30 PM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: MikeN

Re: M3 time

CSL did a sub 8 minute run.

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Jul 11, 2005 9:49:48 AM

Ed J: Pilot; Loc: London; Posts: 407, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 4, 2004; Reply to: Yargk

Re: M3 time

Have to say though that I've yet to read an article by Georg Kacher where he doesn't enthuse about a new car. I think he's a great journo, but he often gets the first drives and gushes big time. His reviews of the 997 Carrera S were similarly gushing.

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Jul 14, 2005 2:19:57 AM

911fan: Senior; Loc: usa; Posts: 554, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2005; Reply to: Ed J

Re: M3 time

Tough to believe a 997s is so much faster than a regular 997.

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Jul 14, 2005 4:40:54 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: 911fan

Re: M3 time

Quote:
911fan said:
Tough to believe a 997s is so much faster than a regular 997.

The 7:59 time for the 997S is with the Euro-only lowered sport suspension with Limited Slip Diff (instead of PASM). The US spec 997S is not as quick...

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Jul 14, 2005 4:53:25 AM

Chris217: Newbie; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 16, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: M3 time

Can it be real the Boxster S loses to the M3? It must be the M3 CSL.

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Jul 14, 2005 5:23:02 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Chris217

Re: M3 time

Quote:
Chris217 said:
Can it be real the Boxster S loses to the M3? It must be the M3 CSL.

Well, the M3 does have 53hp more (pretty sweet motor when it doesn't explode)...

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Jul 14, 2005 12:12:19 PM

mbr129: Junior; Loc: Massachusetts; Posts: 81, Gallery; Registered on: May 10, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: M3 time

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Chris217 said:
Can it be real the Boxster S loses to the M3? It must be the M3 CSL.

Well, the M3 does have 53hp more (pretty sweet motor when it doesn't explode)...

True, but it does weigh 400lbs more, has crappy brakes (for track use), and understeers quite a bit. Also, because in the end they both have 3.2L engines, there isn't a big torque difference.

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Jul 14, 2005 12:53:33 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: M3 time

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Chris217 said:
Can it be real the Boxster S loses to the M3? It must be the M3 CSL.

Well, the M3 does have 53hp more (pretty sweet motor when it doesn't explode)...

True, the first two years of the E46 M3 engine were a little scary with the rod bearing failures and all, but once corrected the last few years have been pretty solid for this motor. It continues to win awards year after year for its output and smooth response. IMO its problems weren't any different than slipped sleeves, intermediate shaft failures, and RMS issues that have plagued Porsches flat six engines recently. BMW found the problem, replaced engines and gave customers a 100k mile warranty......a lot better than Porsche has done with some of its unfortunate owners.

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Jul 14, 2005 12:58:54 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: ezzie

Re: CAR magazine - cayman article

Quote:
ezzie said:
The cayman has made the cover of august's CAR magazine and eight pages within. The magazine claim to be the first to drive an undisguised version, driven by george kacher. He gushes about it and questions the sanity of anyone buying a 911. Other interesting nuggets, cs version in 2007 and the base 250bhp model out next year. Alas no scanner, but if I can find a way, will do so. Also includes nurburgring times as follows:
gt 7.32
gt3 7.56
turbo 7.56
997s 7.59
cayman s 8.11
bmw m3 8.14
997 8.15
boxster s 8.18
boxster 8.31

The track times you mention are not what they look like.
You (or the CAR magazine) mixed up manufacturer claims with real life testing.
SPORT AUTO tested the M3 E46 on the Nordschleife at 8 min. 22 sec. The new Boxster S hasn't been tested yet but it beats the M3 in Hockenheim Kleiner Ring by over half a second. Not much but the M3 has over 60 HP more.
The Cayman S time of 8 min 11 sec. is also a manufacturer time, the time achieved by a Porsche testdriver who helped develop this car. I'd say that SPORT AUTO would test the Cayman S at around 8 min 16 sec. or so. The 997 Carrera S time is also a manufacturer claim with the 20 mm chassis.

I actually think that the 18 m slalom time shows best what the Boxster S is capable of: 71.1 kph.
M3 E46: 66.1 kph
Boxster S (986 MkII): 67.1 kph
997 Carrera S (PASM): 66.9 kph
GT2 (996) MkII: 68.9 kph
SLK 55 AMG: 65.8kph
Honda S2000: 64.1 kph

Do I need to say more?

I find it pretty impressive for Porsche's "entry-level" model.

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Jul 14, 2005 1:00:18 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: mbr129

Re: M3 time

Quote:
mbr129 said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Chris217 said:
Can it be real the Boxster S loses to the M3? It must be the M3 CSL.

Well, the M3 does have 53hp more (pretty sweet motor when it doesn't explode)...

True, but it does weigh 400lbs more, has crappy brakes (for track use), and understeers quite a bit. Also, because in the end they both have 3.2L engines, there isn't a big torque difference.

Have you taken a ZCP comp package equipped version for a ride lately?......huge cross-drilled brakes, better steering ratio, etc. While still not the 5 star handler the Boxster is......it's nothing to sneeze at either, and will hussle around a track pretty damn well with a good driver.

BTW the M3 puts out 26 more lb ft of torque compared to the Boxster S and will still beat the Cayman by 7.....and it's about 6 years old now.

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Jul 14, 2005 1:06:52 PM

993Targa: Rennteam Pro; Loc: ZH , Switzerland; Posts: 2522, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: CAR magazine - cayman article

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
ezzie said:I actually think that the 18 m slalom time shows best what the Boxster S is capable of: 71.1 kph.
M3 E46: 66.1 kph
Boxster S (986 MkII): 67.1 kph
997 Carrera S (PASM): 66.9 kph
GT2 (996) MkII: 68.9 kph
SLK 55 AMG: 65.8kph
Honda S2000: 64.1 kph

Do I need to say more?

I find it pretty impressive for Porsche's "entry-level" model.

I think RC is in love with his wifes Boxster S

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Jul 14, 2005 1:11:08 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: MikeN

Re: M3 time

Quote:
MikeN said:
BTW the M3 puts out 26 more lb ft of torque compared to the Boxster S and will still beat the Cayman by 7.....and it's about 6 years old now.

The name is 6 years old, the concept is 6 years old but not the car. Every car manufacturer modifies the cars in each model year, most customers never get to know that.

The latest "Performance Package" for the M3 has actually proven to have a worse performance on the track than the original setup. The testdriver was wondering himself, speculating that BMW maybe provided "better" cars for previous tests.

But anyway: the M3 does the Nordschleife in 8 min 22 seconds (SPORT AUTO). The "old" Boxster S with 252 HP (MkI) needed 10(!) seconds longer but also 91 HP less. The new Boxster S with 280 HP hasn't been tested yet by SPORT AUTO on the Nordschleife but in Hockenheim Kleiner Ring, it was slightly faster than the M3.
The Cayman S should do a SPORT AUTO test time of around 8 min 15 or 16 sec. Still 6 seconds faster than the M3 with almost 50 HP less.

I start to understand why BMW drivers always feel provoked when they are standing next to my 997 Carrera S and/or are driving in front or behind me. They actually think they can outrun me...funny.

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Jul 14, 2005 1:14:34 PM

mbr129: Junior; Loc: Massachusetts; Posts: 81, Gallery; Registered on: May 10, 2005; Reply to: MikeN

Re: M3 time

Quote:
MikeN said:
Have you taken a ZCP comp package equipped version for a ride lately?......huge cross-drilled brakes, better steering ratio, etc. While still not the 5 star handler the Boxster is......it's nothing to sneeze at either, and will hussle around a track pretty damn well with a good driver.

BTW the M3 puts out 26 more lb ft of torque compared to the Boxster S and will still beat the Cayman by 7.....and it's about 6 years old now.

No I have not. I speak purely based on comments from people who have tracked the car heavily. I honestly have not heard comments on how the ZCP improved on the M3's capabilites. But with the option in place, the M3 starts getting very pricey. Still, there is no doubt the M3 is a great car. Just too fat for my liking.

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Jul 14, 2005 1:21:09 PM

MikeN: Senior; Loc: Arizona; Posts: 595, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: M3 time

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
MikeN said:
BTW the M3 puts out 26 more lb ft of torque compared to the Boxster S and will still beat the Cayman by 7.....and it's about 6 years old now.

The name is 6 years old, the concept is 6 years old but not the car. Every car manufacturer modifies the cars in each model year, most customers never get to know that.
The latest "Performance Package" for the M3 has actually proven to have a worse performance on the track than the original setup. The testdriver was wondering himself, speculating that BMW maybe provided "better" cars for previous tests.

But anyway: the M3 does the Nordschleife in 8 min 22 seconds (SPORT AUTO). The "old" Boxster S with 252 HP (MkI) needed 10(!) seconds longer but also 91 HP less. The new Boxster S with 280 HP hasn't been tested yet by SPORT AUTO on the Nordschleife but in Hockenheim Kleiner Ring, it was slightly faster than the M3.
The Cayman S should do a SPORT AUTO test time of around 8 min 15 or 16 sec. Still 6 seconds faster than the M3 with almost 50 HP less.

I start to understand why BMW drivers always feel provoked when they are standing next to my 997 Carrera S and/or are driving in front or behind me. They actually think they can outrun me...funny.

Actually a slower absolute track time for the latest M3 really doesn't surprise me......as the ZCP (and all 2005 M3) suspension is actually a little softer than the earlier E46 versions....mainly due to rude comments made about the previous versions "harshness".....I guess you can't please everyone.

Point being IMO the present E46 M3 was, and still is, an outstanding car that will soon be replaced with another one with 400HP. Still not a Porsche on the racetrack, but not everyone drives on a racetrack as his daily drive.

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