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    Re: RC: yay

    Holminator...

    "Iraqi support for terrorism under Saddam Hussein was directed toward Israel. The Government of Iraq viewed that activity as a war of liberation, not terrorism (its view not mine). A-Qa'ida never had an alliance with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. If Iraqi intelligence services had contact with member of al-Qa'ida that would be normal since it is the job of all intelligence services to develop contacts that will betray either their country or group and provide intelligence to said intelligence service. Such an "association" does not mean they are cooperating to conduct attacks. In fact, al-Qa'ida was opposed to Saddam Hussein's government and saw it as an corrupt, apostate regime that needed to be brought down and made a part of a worldwide Islamic Caliphate. Saddam Hussein knew that and wanted to find out what was going on in the group because it was a potential threat to his regime."

    May I suggest that you take your claimed psychic powers to the race track instead of threat analysis. You are being overly simplistic. Trans national terrorists with disparate and even opposing views and ideologies have exchanged operational support, intelligence and even have rented their teams out to each other. They do it because it is opportune to do so or they have a common enemy. And in Irag there was a Al Qaida group operating NW of Mosul before the US invasion.

    It is preposterous to categorically state that a Wahabbi Sunni Like Osama would never do business with a apostate like Hussein, or never do business with the Shia's, or even the Turkish Grey Wolves.

    Re: RC: yay

    RC, I agree with quite a bit of what you said - not sure about your opinion of womens equality/role in the region (my ex-girlfriend is from Iran and she has a different take). Also, some opinions about our troops, etc I don't necessarily agree with. I do agree with your thoughts of the attacks on London. Hope we're right too.


    I absolutely believe that the media coverage in the US has been atrocious! Any positive news is down played or dismissed, while any possible negatives( confirmed or not) are amplified to the max. No sense of proportionality: beheadings by terrorists get maybe a day or two on the front page, while Abu Ghraib and Gitmo are often front page "news." The media expects everything to be perfect and is extremely quick to jump at anything that may make our President or the troops look bad. When I read the paper, my first thought is always- wow , what if this really were true. They rarely, if ever, get it right. They seem to be stuck with the Vietnam era mentality: we're the bully, everthing we do is dubious, the enemy is fighting for honorable reasons... etc. Terrorists are called insurgents,instead of their proper name. I could go on and on.

    Re: RC: yay

    Holminator,

    LOL..., Al Qaida was/is in Europe, Asia, Africa, The Middle East, S. Florida... but not in or associated with Iraq!?

    Re: RC: yay

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    And in Irag there was a Al Qaida group operating NW of Mosul before the US invasion.



    You're correct, Jim. Some people don't know (or refuse to acknowledge) that a group called Ansar al-Islam had a base of operations in Iraq, with Saddam's knowledge. Ansar al-Islam has ties to/support from al-Qaeda.

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    The tragic event of yesterday in London are a daily occurance in Iraq due to the arrogant planing of the US military.



    Don't blame it on the terrorists. Blame it on the US. I see.



    We invaded the country. What happens there is our responsibility.



    We are now responsible for every terrorist attack in the world because of Iraq? By the way, I thought there was no connection between Iraq and terrorism.



    Iraqi support for terrorism under Saddam Hussein was directed toward Israel. The Government of Iraq viewed that activity as a war of liberation, not terrorism (its view not mine). A-Qa'ida never had an alliance with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. If Iraqi intelligence services had contact with member of al-Qa'ida that would be normal since it is the job of all intelligence services to develop contacts that will betray either their country or group and provide intelligence to said intelligence service. Such an "association" does not mean they are cooperating to conduct attacks. In fact, al-Qa'ida was opposed to Saddam Hussein's government and saw it as an corrupt, apostate regime that needed to be brought down and made a part of a worldwide Islamic Caliphate. Saddam Hussein knew that and wanted to find out what was going on in the group because it was a potential threat to his regime.

    By invading Iraq, it created a reaction. The war there services as a massive recruiting tool for al-Qa'ida and its sister groups. Invading Iraq was the worst foreign policy blunder of our time. The war is indefendible.

    With regard to the comment about the US is now responsible for the actions terrorist do, I don't understand this comment. Sounds like the same meaningless rhetoric some of our radio talk show hosts use.



    Tony, the initial comment I made in response to Yarub was a mistake because I mistook his statement to imply that because of what we did in Iraq, that we were responsible for the bombing in London. I had to reread his statement to understand that I made a mistake.

    You responded to my response correctly, with "We invaded the country. What happens there is our responsibility." I then responded to this incorrectly because I was still using Yarub's original comment for my reasoning and based my response on that.

    So anyways, I suggested that I was wrong and that we should stop this mini-thread. No need to respond to the mistake.

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    How about ice cream with that pie?

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Yeah, where's brunner!?


    SoCal Alan and JimFlat6, thanks for your input.
    Right on the mark, IMO.

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Oops. No problem, friend! My bad.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Lame point Grant. In 1996 Clinton only got 49%, and in 1992 he got 43%. U.S. presidential elections RARELY pull a 50%+ majority for the winner when an independent, or green party, or reform party, or what-have-you sticks their nose into the fray. Don't let facts get in the way of your rhetoric guys (sarcasm...)



    Speaking of worthless and garbage rhetoric, the whole "The U.S. is just interested in the oil" thing is a laughable and ignorant-of-the-facts notion. It's a convenient sound byte to feed to those who don't bother to dig further.



    First: Clinton actuallky WON the elections. Both of them. According to the democratic principles you have to get the most votes.
    According to the american principles two elections ago, you dont need to get the most votes. You only need some 18th century voting system (faulty ballots) and a brother who is governor in the state you need to win to become president.

    Before you start: I dont think ANY president get to be president without pulling dirty tricks, but this one was so thick even OJ Simpson must have thought to himself "howw did he get away with that??".


    Regarding the invasion of Iraq:
    I believe the US + allies did all the right things for all the wrong reasons.

    Oil. Nothing more, nothing less. Oil is money, oil is power, oil is necessary.
    Couple that with the number one way to get the economy going in a country:
    War. And there you have it.

    Perhaps you have heard this already, but here's a little story that popped up in "60 minutes" on CBS. It's about a reporter who told the story of Bush's former treasury secretary. The one Bush fired and the one that told the story of a president looking for an excuse to remove Saddam.

    I'm not saying this is the absolute truth. Maybe this secretary of treasury is a scorned ex-employee, but it doenst sound like it.
    :::::::::::::::

    Check this http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1023485.htm
    or read on.

    "A Man who would not sell out: Paul O'Neill

    As the history of the Presidency of George W. Bush unfolds, a new leaf has open exposing a center of secrets that are not so pretty:

    The man at the top is not in control.

    Sadam was always the target even before 9/11- and his oil fields were to be divvied up by we, the conquering nation.

    This comes from revelations from a new book from his own hand picked former Treasury Secretary.


    In this book by a Wall Street reporter, Mr O'Neill' gives his account of his two years as Treasury secretary, Add to the public fanfare a series of interviews over the weekend, is a startling tale of an administration nominally led by a disengaged figurehead president but driven by a "praetorian guard" of hardline rightwingers led by vice president Dick Cheney, ready to bend circumstances and facts to fit their political agenda

    He quoted from a Pentagon document entitled "Foreign Suitors For Iraqi Oilfield Contracts," which, he said, talks about carving the country's fuel reserves up between the world's oil companies. It talks about contractors around the world from ... 30, 40 countries and which ones have what intentions on oil in Iraq," Mr Suskind said.

    Who is Paul O'Neill?

    Mr. O'Neill served as Chairman and CEO of Alcoa from 1987 until 1999. He retired as chairman at the end of 2000. In 1977, O'Neill joined International Paper Company as Vice President for Planning, serving in that capacity until 1985.

    Between 1967 and 1977, O'Neill served at the U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB). He joined OMB in 1967, and was deputy director of OMB from 1974 to 1977. He began his public service as a computer systems analyst with the US Veterans Administration, where he served from 1961 to 1966.

    Secretary O'Neill also served as Director of the American Enterprise Institute, served on the Boards of Directors of Eastman Kodak Company, Lucent Technologies, and the Rand Corporation.

    He obtained his Bachelor's Degree in Economic from Fresno State College in California and his Master's Degree in Public Administration from Indiana University. He and his wife, Nancy, have three daughters, one son and twelve grandchildren. Mr. O'Neill was born in St. Louis, Missouri, on December 4, 1935."


    :::::::


    On a personal note I believe we (the US + allies) should stay in Iraq.
    The way to defeat terrorism is NOT thru war, but thru education.
    Teaching, enlightening, educating people.
    The more people know, the less they fear and the more they can resist extremists with their medieva thinking.

    Democracy is not always perfect. Far from it. But it's the best we've got right now. Spread that and we may defeat terrorism.

    I see the US as our ally. No doubt at all. And no doubt we should support our friend and allies as best we can.
    But we should also tell them when they feck up and do things that are out of line.
    My 2 and a half cents

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Oh heck, here we go again!

    Bush won!!!! AlGORE tried to steal the election( change the rules during the vote count: recount only certain precincts- favoring him, of course). The Supreme Court made the right decision. You can't recount some votes over and over again, and others only once. You just can't change the rules during the election! So... last World Cup, Germany has more shots on goal than Brazil but loses on the scoreboard. Would it be right to change the rules, after the fact, and award the game to Germany! NO!( as much as I would like that).

    And of course the liberal media later recounted the votes in Florida again- result: Bush won again!!!!!!!! Numerous vote counts, 1 result- Bush wins. ALGORE never had more votes in Florida. If the electoral system is not any good than let the lawmakers change it for the next election. Please lets move on! Fricking spilled milk/sour grapes!

    Bring on more conspiracy theories!

    Dr Phil, after reading your post- I think I need to spend some time with the real Phil. Lets hear about how credible you think CBS, Dan Rather,60 Minutes, Newsweek, etc are.Please! As I have said, I always listen to and read these stories and think: what if that were true! You're much too smart to fall for that crap! O'Neill from Fresno St.( me too) - that says it all.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Amen... Now how about pie, ice cream, and a cafe au lait?

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Yeah right OIL,OIL,OIL.... blah, f'ing blah. Nothing to do with national/ world security, humanitarianism.. just f'ing OIL! Please give us a break. Simple conclusions for simple minds I guess!

    A year and a half out from re-election, with very high approval ratings and matters going well in Afghanistan, that cowboy, frat boy,dunce, barbecue hick from Texas ( what you folks so arrogantly think) puts all his chips on Iraq- makes real f'ing sense to me. NOT!!!!! Oh, that's right you overlook that the Clinton Admin. also wanted to get rid of Saddam- their policy.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Sounds great Jenna!

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:
    Oh heck, here we go again!

    Bush won!!!! AlGORE tried to steal the election( change the rules during the vote count: recount only certain precincts- favoring him, of course). The Supreme Court made the right decision. You can't recount some votes over and over again, and others only once. You just can't change the rules during the election! So... last World Cup, Germany has more shots on goal than Brazil but loses on the scoreboard. Would it be right to change the rules, after the fact, and award the game to Germany! NO!( as much as I would like that).

    And of course the liberal media later recounted the votes in Florida again- result: Bush won again!!!!!!!! Numerous vote counts, 1 result- Bush wins. ALGORE never had more votes in Florida. If the electoral system is not any good than let the lawmakers change it for the next election. Please lets move on! Fricking spilled milk/sour grapes!

    Bring on more conspiracy theories!

    Dr Phil, after reading your post- I think I need to spend some time with the real Phil. Lets hear about how credible you think CBS, Dan Rather,60 Minutes, Newsweek, etc are.Please! As I have said, I always listen to and read these stories and think: what if that were true! You're much too smart to fall for that crap! O'Neill from Fresno St.( me too) - that says it all.



    May I recommend looking up the word "liberal" in the dictionary? It may surprise you (no disrespect intended).

    Re: RC: yay

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    And in Irag there was a Al Qaida group operating NW of Mosul before the US invasion.




    You're correct, Jim. Some people don't know (or refuse to acknowledge) that a group called Ansar al-Islam had a base of operations in Iraq, with Saddam's knowledge. Ansar al-Islam has ties to/support from al-Qaeda.


    Ansar al-Islam operated 3 kms from the Iranian border in a mountainous region that was not access by the Hussein government. Not even the PUK could touch these guys in their fortress. Ansar was not operating with the Iraqi government. That's a fact established by the 9-11 Commission. I have no idea were you are getting your facts, gentlemen. Yes, Ansar was a sister organization, operating with al-Qa'ida.

    Re: RC: yay

    CNN or was it BBC

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Might I suggest that the right honorable SVNSVN was using the term in its popular context? Regretfully liberals in this country are drunk on concepts of social and political re mapping. If they would live up to the precise definition of the term they so eagerly wrap themslevs in, they might actually win national elections.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Oh yeah, I could use a cup!

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Tony ...

    "Ansar al-Islam operated 3 kms from the Iranian border in a mountainous region that was not access by the Hussein government. Not even the PUK could touch these guys in their fortress. Ansar was not operating with the Iraqi government. That's a fact established by the 9-11 Commission. I have no idea were you are getting your facts, gentlemen. Yes, Ansar was a sister organization, operating with al-Qa'ida."

    I think its speculative to state that Husseins forces could not access the area that Ansar was located at. You have no evidence that they could not and no evidence that they tried and failed.

    Hussein could just leave them alone and not interfere at all,and that in itself is a form of assistance.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Might I suggest that the right honorable SVNSVN was using the term in its popular context? Regretfully liberals in this country are drunk on concepts of social and political re mapping. If they would live up to the precise definition of the term they so eagerly wrap themslevs in, they might actually win national elections.



    I think the whole "left/right" debate is really not a debate at all. It's nothing more than rhetoric designed to whip up people to go vote with anger since most people are not registered to vote and few, who are registered in the US, actually vote. It's a sign of a weak democracy and weak political officials, who use hatred of different political views to get people involved in the system (dangerous IMHO). Whenever I see this stuff, I try not to turn off my attention span, but it's hard. When you get down to the facts, Democrats (Liberals) and Republicans (Conservatives) do the same kinds of things once in office except on maybe 3-5 key issues. The older I get the more my built-in BS detector works with accuracy. You know what I mean brother?

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Tony ...

    "Ansar al-Islam operated 3 kms from the Iranian border in a mountainous region that was not access by the Hussein government. Not even the PUK could touch these guys in their fortress. Ansar was not operating with the Iraqi government. That's a fact established by the 9-11 Commission. I have no idea were you are getting your facts, gentlemen. Yes, Ansar was a sister organization, operating with al-Qa'ida."

    I think its speculative to state that Husseins forces could not access the area that Ansar was located at. You have no evidence that they could not and no evidence that they tried and failed.

    Hussein could just leave them alone and not interfere at all,and that in itself is a form of assistance.



    It's not speculative (I've been to Iraq & I have a clue). It is cognitive dissonance for ideologs.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Tony ....Ill try item by item..

    ""I think the whole "left/right" debate is really not a debate at all. It's nothing more than rhetoric designed to whip up people to go vote with anger since most people are not registered to vote and few, who are registered in the US, actually vote.""

    Basically many Americans dont like any kind of government except when they need it. There is an entire industry here dedicated to "he said, she said" politics and selling advertising for it. Its pretty much like selling soap to get the germs off every two years.

    ""It's a sign of a weak democracy and weak political officials, who use hatred of different political views to get people involved in the system (dangerous IMHO). Whenever I see this stuff, I try not to turn off my attention span, but it's hard.""

    American politcal campaign history has always been full of invective, distortions and ruthless opportunism. But it manages non the less to remain strong. At the first few
    presidential elections we had, voters had to walk through a gauntlet of rum givers and then publicly proclaim whom they were voting for when they cast their ballot. If we can survive that, we can survive current media overload. There simply is no better system, unless you are ready to make me King.

    ""When you get down to the facts, Democrats (Liberals) and Republicans (Conservatives) do the same kinds of things once in office except on maybe 3-5 key issues. The older I get the more my built-in BS detector works with accuracy. You know what I mean brother?



    No doubt both parties lack the skill to not mismanage the government departments and bureaus they run via appointments. But its not really done well anyhere in any country. Yes, there are 3-5 key politcal issues that resonate with voters.Im glad its not just one.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Might I suggest that the right honorable SVNSVN was using the term in its popular context? Regretfully liberals in this country are drunk on concepts of social and political re mapping. If they would live up to the precise definition of the term they so eagerly wrap themslevs in, they might actually win national elections.



    What I was really getting at is that if you look at the last 50 years of foreign policy decisions there are no major differences between the choices Republicans and Democrats made once in office. The choices were pragmatic based on our enduring foreign policy interests. That's why our President criticized the concept of nation building when running for his 1st term and is now engaging in nation building in Iraq. The whole American discourse (or shouting match, which is what it really is, not a discourse) is nothing more than pseudo-intellectual dribble and an embrassment to the nation at home and abroad. It's devoid of any intellectual recognition of Liberal and Conservative thought. There are no more William F. Buckley Jrs out there. Only idiots and posers (present company excluded!). Can I get an amen out there somewhere?

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Tony ...

    "Ansar al-Islam operated 3 kms from the Iranian border in a mountainous region that was not access by the Hussein government. Not even the PUK could touch these guys in their fortress. Ansar was not operating with the Iraqi government. That's a fact established by the 9-11 Commission. I have no idea were you are getting your facts, gentlemen. Yes, Ansar was a sister organization, operating with al-Qa'ida."

    I think its speculative to state that Husseins forces could not access the area that Ansar was located at. You have no evidence that they could not and no evidence that they tried and failed.

    Hussein could just leave them alone and not interfere at all,and that in itself is a form of assistance.



    It's not speculative (I've been to Iraq & I have a clue). It is cognitive dissonance for ideologs.



    No doubt some ideologues do suffer from cognitive dissonance.

    But it is speculative to mix up the devining of intentions with a fixed determination of operational abilities.

    Americans like all military and intelligence problems to be simple, quick and not require much work, analysis or examination for different possibilities. Yes, you cant go there, Simple. Definite. Zero defects. Perfect reports.
    Its almost robotic like and is intellectually lazy.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Might I suggest that the right honorable SVNSVN was using the term in its popular context? Regretfully liberals in this country are drunk on concepts of social and political re mapping. If they would live up to the precise definition of the term they so eagerly wrap themslevs in, they might actually win national elections.



    What I was really getting at is that if you look at the last 50 years of foreign policy decisions there are no major differences between the choices Republicans and Democrats made once in office. The choices were pragmatic based on our enduring foreign policy interests. That's why our President criticized the concept of nation building when running for his 1st term and is now engaging in nation building in Iraq. The whole American discourse (or shouting match, which is what it really is, not a discourse) is nothing more than pseudo-intellectual dribble and an embrassment to the nation at home and abroad. It's devoid of any intellectual recognition of Liberal and Conservative thought. There are no more William F. Buckley Jrs out there. Only idiots and posers (present company excluded!). Can I get an amen out there somewhere?



    Tony, tony, tony.. No Ahmen for you!

    Buckley is as much a parvenu as he is a patrician. Born into the elite, he really did nothing remarkable to warrant his notoriety except his own shameless self promotion. Gore Vidal is a much better writer, but has the more worthless politics.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    LOL! Cute doggie in the Avatar. Let's eat some pie!

    Cheers to Londoners!

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    LOL! Cute doggie in the Avatar. Let's eat some pie!

    Cheers to Londoners!



    Pie is ok!

    That doggie not only leans in the corners but can
    play name that caliber.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    How about a little dancing too, in order to burn off the extra calories that have been used to eat that pie, and to add to the calories burned to exert the energy each of ya have used in this thread... wow, we should all be in shape before this thread ends...

    Anyone for pumping Porsches as well for the extra muscle gain?

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Condolences to those who lost families in London and a healthy recovery to those who got injured...


    The opinions on this thread have been very informative and are enlightening to hear voices from different parts of the world. Bravo to the editors and moderators for allowing and participating in this invigorating piece of opinions and facts surrounding our current WORLD ISSUE I believe that we should all take part in making the world a better place through small donations and help those who are wounded from both sides of the camp.

    Bravo Rennteam!

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    May I recommend looking up the word "liberal" in the dictionary? It may surprise you (no disrespect intended).




    Ok, from Merriam-Webster:

    of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives

    Damn! I was a liberal all this time!

     
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