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    Jul 7, 2005 8:11:43 PM

    69bossnine
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    69bossnine
    Loc: FL, USA , United States
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    Registered on: Jan 27, 2005
    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Hahaha! You guys crack me up! Good sense of humor. Love you dudes. The original plan was that oil successfully pumped from Iraq would pay for reconstruction. It was to be a self-financing operation. Wait. Change 1: Insurgents blow up the pipelines each week. Change 2: Oil infrastructure was more hosed up (pardon the pun) than we expected so oil capacity was much lower than expected. So instead we pump in billions of dollars each week to support the reconstruction effort and provide free healthcare insurance for every Iraq (damn, we don't do that for Americans at home--WTF? Who's running this "war"). I don't understand how people, who believe in a particular ideology can support this war. It's (the policy, not individuals...no personal attacks intended) crazy.




    Thanks for the breath of fresh reality!! Honestly, this whole thing about Bush and Cheney taking care of their "buddies" is silly. Clinton got hosed by equal amounts of baseless nonsense. I wouldn't take the job for any price, that's for sure. No matter what you do, you've got people thinking that you're o.k. with murder, destruction, fraud, and poverty, as long as you're getting fat in the process. And you just sit in your office with all your big-busines cronies and puff on Cuban cigars and laugh about how rich you're getting, and dream about burning alot of oil, and ruining the environment, and laugh about the poor, and make alot of ethnic jokes.... Sure, that's what it is to be president. "Hey fellas, let's invade Iraq, we'll get rich!!" Yep, that was the genesis of that plan, for sure. Anyhow, enough with the Halliburton nonsense. It's hard to put a contract out to bid for a project that only one company on earth is equipped to deal with, you know?? And nobody said "boo" about Halliburton, and no-bid contracts, when they were commonly happening during prior administrations. If Dick Cheney REALLY wanted to be as rich as possible, he would have stayed in the private sector.

    Jul 7, 2005 8:13:14 PM

    cartouche
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    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Jimflat6 : our minuscule belgian standard tell us that all the crimes you're talking about have nothing to do with a mass destruction potential that is your US standard. And I'm afraid our little belgian standard is closier to the rest of the nations standard than yours...
    Holminator : then what is "french bashin" ? Sorry for my ignorance.

    Jul 7, 2005 8:15:15 PM

    cartouche
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Merci Jeannot, j'ai enfin compris...

    Jul 7, 2005 8:15:23 PM

    br d
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    br d
    Loc: Essex UK
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    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    I know what you mean. Seven of my friends and co-workers were killed in the Pentagon. I was on my way there when I caught a glimpse of the 2nd plane hitting the Towers on CNN. I decided to hang back for a few minutes before heading over to the Pentagon. Fate was on my side yet again. Life goes on my friend.

    When I heard the news about London, Madrid was the first thing that I thought of and then my own situation. It's ashame how violent our species is.



    The shame isn't yours mate. We try to live our lives as decent people, to do the right thing. If others fail to grasp even the most basic tenets of what being a human being means it is their failing. None of us are perfect, I'm flawed from head to toe, but we are not responsible for the ignorance of others.

    br d

    Jul 7, 2005 8:15:27 PM

    JohnA
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    JohnA
    Loc: Durham, UK , United Kingdom
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    Registered on: May 13, 2004
    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    The cheapest way for the US to obtain oil from Iraq would have been to have bought it from Saddaam Hussein, the US did not do so because it behaved in a principled manner.
    Likewise you will find that the explosions in London will not cause the UK to change its principles.
    The facts in Iraq are that despite the violence the people of Iraq have had an election, something of a rarity in their history. They have a legitimate government rather than a bandit gang in charge, the US liberated Iraq rather than invaded it. The government of Iraq requires support.
    It is clearly not going to be easy but 23 million Iraqis cannot be abandoned to whoever behaves the most ruthlessly.

    Jul 7, 2005 8:17:12 PM

    Holminator
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    Easy there Tiger. I'm not saying The Prez & VP are innocent of those charges either. It needs to be investigated. There have been cases of high-level corruption and war profiteering in our government before. Clinton, Bush, etc. are not saints. They're politicians and I have no blind loyalty for any of them. I am not going to cheer for these guys like I would for my favorite football team.

    Jul 7, 2005 8:18:10 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: cartouche

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Merci Jeannot, j'ai enfin compris...



    De rien

    Jul 7, 2005 8:18:32 PM

    gian61 Offline
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    gian61
    Loc: Pavia , Italy
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    Reply to: JohnA

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    .
    web page

    Jul 7, 2005 8:19:49 PM

    Jeannot
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    Jeannot
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    If Dick Cheney REALLY wanted to be as rich as possible, he would have stayed in the private sector.



    Well, it's not only money in the equation...what about power?...Come on, at this level you trade $$$ for something else...take your pick...

    Jul 7, 2005 8:21:05 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: cartouche

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Cartouche. You have to look at the total context and circumstances. Did he have WMD before? Yes. Was he openly complying with UN WMD inspectors? NO. Add his other past behaviour up and hes Mr Candidate for removal. He was due for removal before the WMD issue. If anything, the WMD issue was a lever to compel some UN members to leave their comfortable chairs of appeasement to finally finish the job.

    We thank Belgium for supplying us with practically all of our Infantry weapons. They work very nicely!

    Jul 7, 2005 8:24:00 PM

    br d
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    br d
    Loc: Essex UK
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    Reply to: cartouche

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Jimflat6 : our minuscule belgian standard tell us that all the crimes you're talking about have nothing to do with a mass destruction potential that is your US standard. And I'm afraid our little belgian standard is closier to the rest of the nations standard than yours...
    Holminator : then what is "french bashin" ? Sorry for my ignorance.



    And without "The mass destruction potential of the US" you and I would be living in a very different Europe now cartouche.

    But that's absurd oversimplification anyway. I think I'll just go and get drunk.

    br d

    Jul 7, 2005 8:27:50 PM

    cartouche
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Cartouche. You have to look at the total context and circumstances. Did he have WMD before? Yes. Was he openly complying with UN WMD inspectors? NO. Add his other past behaviour up and hes Mr Candidate for removal. He was due for removal before the WMD issue. If anything, the WMD issue was a lever to compel some UN members to leave their comfortable chairs of appeasement to finally finish the job.

    We thank Belgium for supplying us with practically all of our Infantry weapons. They work very nicely!


    Finish the job huh ?
    Well it seems to remain unfinished for a while...
    Infantry weapons against petrol could be a deal : my Porsche is thirsty...

    Jul 7, 2005 8:34:31 PM

    Holminator
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    Reply to: br d

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    br d said:
    Quote:
    I think I'll just go and get drunk.

    br d



    Now that's a good plan! I'm going for the Scotch right now! Let us drink to a singular purpose!

    Jul 7, 2005 8:34:35 PM

    cartouche
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    Reply to: br d

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    br d said:
    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Jimflat6 : our minuscule belgian standard tell us that all the crimes you're talking about have nothing to do with a mass destruction potential that is your US standard. And I'm afraid our little belgian standard is closier to the rest of the nations standard than yours...
    Holminator : then what is "french bashin" ? Sorry for my ignorance.



    And without "The mass destruction potential of the US" you and I would be living in a very different Europe now cartouche.

    But that's absurd oversimplification anyway. I think I'll just go and get drunk.

    br d


    Surely it would be different, my friend. Thanks to them. But it's not a reason to be allways all right with them ! Am I wrong ?
    Anyway, excellent idea : lets get drunk !

    Jul 7, 2005 9:00:13 PM

    LowPolarMoment
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    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    It's a shame how violent our species is.


    Killing in the name of God. Now that makes sense!

    Jul 7, 2005 9:14:11 PM

    69bossnine
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    69bossnine
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    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Easy there Tiger. I'm not saying The Prez & VP are innocent of those charges either. It needs to be investigated. There have been cases of high-level corruption and war profiteering in our government before. Clinton, Bush, etc. are not saints. They're politicians and I have no blind loyalty for any of them. I am not going to cheer for these guys like I would for my favorite football team.



    I think that if there was anything TO investigate, that the wheels would already be in motion. We've been in Iraq for awhile now. I don't have blind allegience, but I find that blind cynicism is far more popular. I blame the media for creating so much cynicism, because they've known for quite some time now that scandal, real or fiction, gets ratings.

    Jul 7, 2005 9:20:35 PM

    Holminator
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    No investigation yet. Republicans control executive and legislative branches of government and no one can stomach another independent investigative commission like the one Ken Star had. I have a few Consitutional issues with those commissions as well. I'm not saying the White House is corrupt, but I am saying it should be investigated by law enforcement and/or the US Congress. That's Congress's job--to check the power of the Executive. That's democracy in action--not just a bunch of moralistic bs. Matters dealing with Halliburton are being investigated by the FBI vis-a-vis overcharging for contracts. A friend of mine quit Halliburton KBR because of corruption issues that he didn't want to be a part of; he turned the information over to FBI. There's some funking sh#$ going on. Blind cynism? I'm guilty as charged, my friend.


    How is the media responsible for the actions of corrupt government or corporate officials? That argument makes no sense whatsoever.

    Jul 7, 2005 9:28:31 PM

    ISUK Offline
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    Reply to: cartouche

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    I haven't had time to read all of the posts but I've picked up on the sentiment expressed from all sides.

    There have been interesting comments about why the US is in Iraq, references to the role of the US in the major conflicts of the last century, views on isolationism, religion, capitalism etc etc.

    I firmly believe that what we are all witnessing is the result of a lack of education and equal opportunity for many people around the world. I think many of us in the west have a tendency to look at our own history through rose tinted glasses at times and let nationalistic pride cloud our views of the world we live in. Religion has long been used as a method of controlling the ordinary people by using it to systematically manipulate their views by appealing to their fears. Since the end of WW11 the western world has enjoyed an extended period of "relative" peace and stability which has allowed the majority of it's people to go about their daily lives without fear of state intimidation or interference. I think we tend to forget that widespread education, economic opportunity, personal mobility and global communication networks are fantastic achievements that have been made in the relativelty short timespan of the second half of the 20th century in the west. We pay our taxes, moan a bit about our lot in life but generally get on with it because we have the freedom to improve our quality of life by enterprise.

    This is simply not the case in many of the countries where terror organisations recruit young people who are disaffected with life and are easily manipulated into focusing this anger against a perceived threat - the great satan of the west. I for one believe that America as a nation state is genuinely trying to live up to its role of world policeman and face up to the problems that are a legacy of doing "business" with undesirable states during the cold war. Let us not forget that had it not done some of these things during that period, the world might just have ended up a barren hunk of rock flying through space with a very highly radioactive climate. Whilst President Bush could hardly be described as the most eloquent orator ever to have taken high office, I think he is sincere about his desire to defeat terror. Clinton appeared to be the exact opposite until faced with a situation in the Balkans that he just could not ignore due to the consequences of that conflict radiating out and igniting state sponsored war between Muslim and Christian nations. It will be interesting to see how history judges each man.

    The challenges going forward are immense. The single biggest obstacle is fighting blind faith which can drive young idealists towards a perceived path of martyrdom. How can a US GI or British soldier, or any of the allied coalition troops for that matter, be expected to overcome that level of inbuilt determination to kill for a cause? The answer is that they cannot. Western troops value life and fight to defend it. The "enemy" they face does not highly value life and is therefore prepared to die almost robotically. If you need proof of this look at the conflict between Germany and the Soviet Union in World War 2. Stalin ruthlessly used his superior human resources of an impoverished, poorly educated and state terrorised people to defeat a highly trained, well equipped modern army.On that occassion the world was greatful for state sponsored terror and manipulation of an "allies" own people.

    No one in their right mind will take on the might of the US military machine in an open engagement on normal battlefield conditions. The superior weaponry, training, force size and logistics support will mean defeat for any conventional foe. That is where the problem lies as we are all facing a non conventional foe. The only way to tackle this type of foe is to change the conditions in which they live and give them hope that they can live better lives, be safe and secure in their homes, have food to eat, schools for their children, and hope for the future. That is why it is imperative that the leaders of the G8 firm up their resolve to open up international trade and let free enterprise flourish to give people the aspiration to succeed. Only then will sustainable democracy work and radical extremism be defeated. History is littered with the lesson that people without hope are formidable enemies who refuse to be subjugated.

    911 was an horrific event that I hope is never repeated again anywhere in the world. I hope that it's lasting legacy will be that it has opened the eyes of many isolationists in the US to the fact that we now live in a truly global society thanks to modern transport and communication. It is no longer acceptable to pick and choose which extremists are ok to support.

    As for the issue of perpetuating centuries old wounds, the people of the UK know only too well the consequences of facing terror on our doorstep that was helped along by misguided fundraisers in other parts of the world. These types of conflicts have no place in a modern, democratic society but are fuelled by predjudice and hatred passed down through generations for the wrongs committed centuries earlier. Would the vast majority of citizens of the US tolerate such actions if they were perputated by extremists groups who could not accept the final outcome of your own civil war? How would you then view other counties who chanelled money to these people to buy weapons? An extreme parallel I accept, but one which might challenge perceptions.

    My views are not intended to offend anyone and I hope they have added to the debate. I'm sorry if they have been a touch long winded.

    Jul 7, 2005 9:37:39 PM

    cartouche
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    Reply to: ISUK

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Clever analysis. Thank you.

    Jul 7, 2005 9:43:12 PM

    Holminator
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    Reply to: cartouche

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    True. Agree with every word of it.

    Jul 7, 2005 10:06:29 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    I hate to tell you all this, but the anti US and anti Iraqi government forces in Iraq are frkkn amateurs and are not even worthy of their own self proclaimed mission. Compared to the NVA and VC I rate them a 2 on the scale of talent and technical ability.

    Most of the casualties they inflict are on civilians in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    They have not the sense or ability to organize a political wing located elsewhere to draw political power to and leverage that for any sort of settlement to legitimize
    their power.

    Many of their number come from neighboring countries whose governments are only to happy to see them leave and get killed in Iraq.

    They have a very deep well to recruit from and even often recruit the mentally handicapped. They intimidate the populace and cause them great discomfort by destroying the
    basic works infrastructure of water, sewage and power.

    If these people were any good at all, our casualties would be ten times what they are now.

    It will take time to make their cause's desirability fade, but it will happen and Iraq will be a better place.

    Jul 7, 2005 10:25:49 PM

    dr_sam
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: SCREW Al Qaeda - Hope everyone in London is ok.....

    which board is this a boad or a porsche board
    HOPE EVERYONE EVERYWHERE IS OK

    Jul 7, 2005 10:31:28 PM

    ISUK Offline
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    ISUK
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Jim,

    Whilst I agree with your sentiment I think you might be underestimating the effect these "amateur" attacks are having psychologically upon both the Iraqi's themselves and the rest of the world due to high media coverage. This is not a conventional war where the good guys ride in and win convincingly. It's no good riding round in an Abrahms M1 tank if an apparent non combatant uses plain clothes and civilians to shielded themselves from detection before detonating a car or truck bomb. The fear of attack is often a stronger weapon than the actual certainty of attack. If you think you could be killed just by going about your daily business you will be terrified. If you know you are going to be attacked you can take up arms and defend yourself from a known threat.

    The tactic of killing dozens of Iraqi policeman and security forces has a far higher value in PR terms than going after better organised and equipped US or British troops. It focuses the anger of the Iraqi people against our own forces for having been perceived to have started the whole conflict. This slow drip tactic of continued suicide attacks risks us losing the hearts and minds of ordinary people who cannot see the bigger picture of long-term peace through self governing democracy. If the Iraqi security forces in partnership with the coalition troops don't get hold of the situation in the next few months then I think we are going to be there for the long haul and that will be a bad outcome for all involved.

    As you mentioned Vietnam don't forget that it served to prove two things. Firstly you can't win against an ideology by simply using state of the art weaponry. The other guy will keep coming after you as more and more of his people are convinced to hate you and be prepared to die to rid themselves of you and everything you stand for. In that scenario the appetite for conflict on your side will diminish as the isolationist lobby win growing support. Secondly, you certainly won't win if you get adverse coverage from your own media of the apparent futility of a drawn out conflict with endless casualties. That's the flipside of free speech..... it can be used against you as well as for you even if your goal is a just one.

    Doc,

    Your right. This is a Porsche board but todays events are somewhat out of the ordinary and we are lucky to be able to express our individual views in a free manner across the world. Long may it continue to be so or there might not be any Porsches to talk about.

    PS If there are any Vietnam vets or relatives of vets on the board I don't mean to cause offence with my remarks. History is a great leveller and hind sight a wonderful tool that would often serve us better if we truly learned from it. I can't begin to imagine the horrors of that or any other conflict, having being fortunate enough to be one of the lucky people to have benefitted from the sacrifices of others to enjoy the democracy we live in. On that note I shall sign off.

    Jul 8, 2005 12:55:55 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: ISUK

    Does Europe and Mid-East Know lots of Americans detest Bush?

    Bush said there were significant stores of WMD in Iraq.

    He invaded to make the world safer.

    There were no WMD in Iraq.

    If I did something that serious I would be fired and would never work again.

    Bush was not fired!

    I'm done with Bush for the incompetant he is.

    My only hope it the rest of the world, Europe and the Middle east knows there are ALOT of AMERICANS DISGUSTED WITH BUSH.

    Jul 8, 2005 3:05:42 AM

    JimFlat6
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    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Does Europe and Mid-East Know lots of Americans detest Bush?

    ISUK. On the ground there, its impossible to have forces everywhere gaurding everything and thats an advantage for the enemy.

    The enemy in Iraq does garner propaganda points via its attacks and our inability to discover and stop them before they happen.

    My contention is that they are rather unskilled in their attacks, so they have shifted thier attacks to primarily civilians and government employees, not that they are not succeeding in making them.

    If they had any real talent, good training and clever leaders as the VC and NVA had, our problems there would
    be tenfold.

    Jul 8, 2005 3:53:32 AM

    AndyM
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    AndyM
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    Reply to: John SF 2005 997 S

    Re: I voted for the Libertarian candidate

    I have a better idea than to just pull out, pull out, then blow the bastards up! and Iran, because Osama might be hiding there. No wait, find Osama, then eat his children in front of him, then eat HIM!!! Man, I've got some kick ass ideas...

    Jul 8, 2005 4:00:41 AM

    SVNSVN
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Does Europe and Mid-East Know lots of Americans detest Bush?

    My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. God bless them.

    So when is the US population as a whole going to open their eyes and stand united(the world for that matter), against an enemy who loves death more than life- instead of providing aid and comfort to them by bashing our President and our troops? The terrorists love you folks who do this (and who would rather stick their head in the sand and put their bare ass in the air). Place a sign in your yard that you despise President Bush/USA/The Allies... - I'm sure they will spare you!

    Today should remind us AGAIN what kind of cowardly scum we are dealing with. I couldn't care less what their intentions/ wishes/beliefs/ desires... are - when you INTENTIONALLY target innocents you lose me. They're evil and must be dealt with.

    I learned at a rather young age that there is only one way to deal with a bully: break their jaw. Appeasement is for punks/ pussi.. and fools!!! How long could the terrorist scum operate if we all worked together? NOT LONG IMO. It's way past time that we all put our petty political and other differences aside! Lets win this war 1st then go back and critique and nit pick.

    Our troops believe in their mission, and so does the brave Iraqi's who voted in January. God bless them! That's more than good enough for me!!!!!!!!

    69bossnine and JimFlat6 I agree with everything you guys said! 100%!!!!!
    RC too!!!

    Jul 8, 2005 4:32:48 AM

    SVNSVN
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Does Europe and Mid-East Know lots of Americans detest Bush?

    Hey MMD,

    Do you have any disgust for Sadaam, Bin Laden , the terrorists? Only for President Bush, who promised to do all he could after 9-11 to keep us safe, and then had the audacity to do something to keep his promise!

    What part of Sadaams wonderful regime did you like most or find less disgusting?

    It's funny how nearly everyone said that he had WMD's (which he did, and previously used against his own people). But now, for transparent political reasons, folks like you want to deny it and take the word of a tyrant. That's rich!!!

    Jul 8, 2005 4:44:52 AM

    SVNSVN
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    SVNSVN
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    Reply to: SVNSVN

    Re: Does Europe and Mid-East Know lots of Americans detest Bush?

    Oh, 3 more words for now: FOOD FOR OIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Jul 8, 2005 5:26:45 AM

    SoCal Alan
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    SoCal Alan
    Loc: Orange County , United States
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    If Dick Cheney REALLY wanted to be as rich as possible, he would have stayed in the private sector.



    Well, it's not only money in the equation...what about power?...Come on, at this level you trade $$$ for something else...take your pick...



    Do you know something about out government that you're not telling us? Power? Since when does the vice-president of the United States have any power? Ha! Al Gore had a lot of power when he was vice-president for 8 years?

    You crack me up!
     
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