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    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    Please keep you business within your borders and I am sure that you will end up like Switzerland with nothing but prosperaty and no wars.



    Maybe we should have kept business within our own borders in 1991 too.



    Yes! and in 1980 when the US supported Saddam attack against Iran with no limits and turned him into the monster we all know.



    Maybe we shouldn't have supported Russia in 1944, either. Do we get blamed for the cold war too? Look, something tells me if we did nothing in 1991 and let Saddam invade Saudi Arabia, you would be the first one crying for help.



    Good point, Alan. The little ingrate is probably brainwashed about history to know what you're talking about, though.

    I wonder how many Porsche's would be in that region had Saddam taken over. Besides, the dozens Uday and Qusay would be driving.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Curious, would it have been bad if Saddam Hussein invaded Saudi Arabia since he was an ally prior to 1991? I mean, speaking strictly in terms of power politics, not all this international morals between nations and "Saddam was a bad man, boo, hiss" mumbo jumbo. Oh boy.


    After all, there are a lot of wicked despots in Africa nobody cares about in America because, ummm, there's no oil. Duh.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Is it? The oil IS the main source of energy. If you control it you control the world and its growth. Because of that, the USA Administration is actively seeking the control of oil sources.


    Nice theory, followed by a conclusion drawn from that theory. None of which adds up to actual fact. You'll need more than a theory to form an argument.

    Quote:
    Remember that Busch is from Texas.

    So, by your logic, because Bush is from Texas, he profits from high oil prices? Again, nice conclusion based on nonsensical and convenient assumptions. Yes, you're right, our president is fleecing the entire U.S. population for personal profit. Yeah, that's the ticket! Your conspiracy theory would make a great made-for-TV movie, which our fanatical fact-allergic Hollywood is probably already working on...

    Quote:
    First of all, the US Administration has NO RIGHTS to impose its views on what is write and what is wrong on other nations.



    Quote:
    Who gave the US the right to decide what is and what is not an outlaw regim?



    Ummm, the United Nations decided Iraq was an outlaw regime, or did I miss something?? The U.N. clearly agreed that Iraq was an outlaw regime, they just didn't want to deal with the fallout of really doing something about it, and as usual, there were too many hands in Saddam's cookie jar for the U.N. to be effective.

    Quote:
    The world decided against the war and the US went ahead against the will of the worl because it can.



    The "world" decided against the war?? LOL!!!! Against the "will of the world"?? LOL!!!! Your "world" is a fantasy world, one that obviously does not include:

    Afghanistan
    Albania
    Australia
    Azerbaijan
    Bulgaria
    Colombia
    Costa Rica
    Czech Republic
    Denmark
    Dominican Republic
    El Salvador
    Eritrea
    Estonia
    Ethiopia
    Georgia
    Honduras
    Hungary
    Iceland
    Italy
    Japan
    Kuwait
    Latvia
    Lithuania
    Macedonia
    Marshall Islands
    Micronesia
    Mongolia
    Netherlands
    Nicaragua
    Palau
    Panama
    Philippines
    Poland
    Portugal
    Romania
    Rwanda
    Singapore
    Slovakia
    Solomon Islands
    South Korea
    Spain
    Turkey
    Uganda
    United Kingdom
    United States
    Uzbekistan


    And you know damn well that many other democratic countries were against the war for strictly financial reasons, not humanitarian or ethical.

    Quote:
    I think they stoped looking for WMD in Iraq. So basicaly Saddam was telling the truth when he said that he did not have any. Guess who's the liyer now.



    If Saddam was telling the truth, then why didn't he abide by the U.N. orders and offer full disclosure? Why? And don't delude yourself, it wasn't just the U.S. intelligence that warned of WMD's. Why the hell do you think the U.N. was levying sanctions? Because intelligence from everywhere around the globe indicated it. A lie, by definition, is an INTENTIONAL mis-statement of fact.

    We didn't invade Iraq simply because we "didn't like" the government. We truly believed that it was in the best interests of our security, and Saddam had a proven record of thwarting and defying international law. Proven, not just rhetorical theory as you prefer to lean on. All these "what if Australia invaded New Zealand" analogies are not valid at all. It's obvious where this is going, and I better back off. You can always argue that one country "has no right" to interfere in what's going on in other countries. But when people are dying, and terrorist threats are being made, and regimes are hiding and helping those terrorists, you can put all that theory into a bucket and light it with a match, because at that point it's all just utopian nonsense.

    Re: About the WMD...

    Quote:
    John SF 2005 997 S said:
    The problem was that Saddam WANTED his neighbors to think he had WMD so they would live in fear of Iraq - so he did everything he could to make it look like he was snubbing the UN inspectors and hiding them from them even though he didn't have them any more.... We fell for it and invaded... too late now and HOW do we get OUT and bring our troops home without de-stabalizing the whole area? Iran is RIPE for fundamentalists and terrorists...... Not a good situation......



    Valid points, valid theory regarding Saddam's motives, and yes, it's a tough situation. But I don't think we'd be better off having done nothing. But all in all, good post.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Some people in the US government said that there was not enough evidence to conclude that Iraq had WMD. Some people in the US government (like Dick Clark) said that there was no connection between Iraq and al-Qa'ida. They were ignored for "other reasons." Most of our allies argued against war against Iraq. The inspection regime should have continued. There was no urgent reason to change course. At the time, before the war, I felt like my government was highjacked. Democrats and Republicans made stupid choices. Both parties should be thrown out of office in elections. We need a new generation of leaders.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Huh? Who hates Bush and how is he that relevant? Congress agreed to go to war (over 500 people could have said no). US intelligence f'ed up and only CIA Director Tenet may have suffered when many should have been fired. It seems to be a fairly objective fact that the US Government f'ed up and went into Iraq for the wrong reasons. Sacrificing my friends (like Kyland Jones-Huffman, head shot near Basrah while at a traffic light) for a war without reason seems stupid to me. Now we have no way out of this mess. The Iraqi "Government" will never be strong enough to stand on it's own. It's too factious and weak, split on tribal and ethno-religious fault lines.



    We didnt have the wrong reasons. The WMD was just the end of a long list of them and under a long list of circumstances and previous, but recent Iraqi history. Hussein really brought it upon himself. He had a huge opportunity to reinvent himself politcally after Gulf 1
    and totally, completely blew it. Bad taste in velvet paintings,Doritos and porn does not make a genius!

    You may be right about us trying to referee a future three way civil war. Trying to develop democracy in Iraq is the least of evils to choose from right now. The alternatives of Shia or Wahabbi extremists taking power by force is not
    attractive to anyone. Whats the other alternative? Give it back to Turkey? Make France and England responsible for their lines drawn on maps so long ago? let it evolve into a terrorist state like Afghanistan was? If it was the 1700s no one would even care! But now the enemy is only one credit card swipe from getting on a airplane and Jihadin in
    Baltimore.

    Sorry about your friend getting it.I dont think he died in vain at all. But you know what Holmes, volunteers are volunteers. Its sad to lose anybody,but its a far cry from the 7 drafted guys in my squad that got zapped who had absolutely no choice about wether they were goin or not. Soldiering is hard business, its not a risk free game to join for bennys, bonuses and free travel. Your buddy did his job,he took the risk and is one of the many casualties from this ridiculous war foisted upon us by 16th century thinking idiots intent on killing us.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Who wants some pie?


    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Easy men, easy !
    I don't speak and write english fluently enough to intelligently participate to this debate, but I'm deeply interested in it.
    I do agree with some opinions expressed by Fanch, Holminator, and I do specially appreciate the muslims rennteamers expressing here a firm condemnation of terrorism.
    As a modest contribution to this discussion, allow me to remind a french proverb to all of us who honestly think democracy can be imposed from the outside by force :
    "L'enfer est pavé de bonnes intentions..."
    SOLIDARITY AND COMPASSION for the totally innocent victims in London, certainly coming from various countries and practicing various religions in this cosmopolitan and beautiful city.
    SOLIDARITY too, PLEASE, with the democrats from middle east, who are the front line exposed victims of obscurantism and barbarism.

    Re: About the WMD...

    Quote:
    After all, there are a lot of wicked despots in Africa nobody cares about in America because, ummm, there's no oil. Duh.

    Hey, there's alot of need around the world, and it's always convenient to point out where you're not doing anything when you ARE doing something somewhere else. Tell me, every time you drop a $20 bill into a Salvation Army bucket when you're Christmas shopping, do you go home and download a list of every other worthy and valid charity on earth and send a matching contribution to each one??

    I won't argue that the U.S.'s decisions don't encompass military strategy. They do. That's only smart. But I think it goes way beyond the stupid oil, I think it has much more to do with old-school geography and positioning, given all of the unrest and volitility in the region. It's a tinder-box, and it's one that has potential access to black-market nukes. That's scary. There's alot of terrible stuff happening elsewhere around the globe, no doubt there. But we don't have the resources to be everywhere at once, so here we are in Iraq. A good position to catalyze a monumental change in world conflict. It'll be a long time before we see the results, whether we were right or we were dooming ourselves. But you can't just sit back and do nothing. In anything in life, that's the beginning of the end. And to clarify, endless and eternal TALKING is equal to doing nothing. Kinda like me typing on this infernal forum instead of working!!

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Cool post! Thanks!

    Last time we involved ourselves in an on-going civil war was Somalia, during President Clinton's time. I don't think I need to suggest anything else on that point, but in Yugoslavia, at least we waited until the war was near the end with peacekeeping operations in Bosnia and so on and finally offensive operations to help Kosovo, most of which was ethno-religiously homogenious, except in the northwestern tip of Kosovo.

    One of the key roots of our pain in the Middle East relates to our unconditional political, economic, and military support of Israel. We have the economic leverage to force peace on the Israelis and Palestinians are yet no one has the courage to make it happen. I think only one man in our government knows how to make it happen: John McCahn. Issue--campaign finance reform (the no. 1 political issue in our time IMHO).

    PS 69bossnine, "work is for suckers." I have the next 2 weeks off!

    Re: About the WMD...

    Jimflat6, you are one hell of a writer. You get to the point, where I blabber. I liked your last post. Good synopsis of the situation.

    Re: all about oil?.

    If the USA was in Iraq for just its oil, do u really think the US would bother with Iraq? Get real!!! That would be the last of our choices. There are so many oil producing countries easier to take, like Brunei, Nigeria,Angola,Libya and all of the North Sea Oil Fields. They have any sizeable navies to stop the USA??? Nooooooooooo.

    Re: all about oil?.

    Okay. In addition to oil, there's:

    -Some kicka## palaces to sun myself,
    -Revenge for trying to kill former President Bush,
    -A permanent base for US military operations against "others," although SECDEF says we will not stay there (umm, okay, sure, I believe you, Mr. Politician, ha!),
    -Buffer states to influence relations in Turkey, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iran,
    -Lots of contracts for my buddies at Bechtel, Halliburton, Blackwater, blah, blah, blah.

    What really gets me mad is that there is NO PORSCHE DEALERSHIP IN BAGHDAD! WTF!!!!

    If I remember correctly (someone help me out), Iraq has the 2nd largest proven oil & gas reserves in the world. Ummm, that would be a big enough reason all by itself as India and China become more reliant on Gulf oil each year. Yeah.

    Re: all about oil?.

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Okay. In addition to oil, there's:

    -Some kicka## palaces to sun myself,
    -Revenge for trying to kill former President Bush,
    -A permanent base for US military operations against "others," although SECDEF says we will not stay there (umm, okay, sure, I believe you, Mr. Politician, ha!),
    -Buffer states to influence relations in Turkey, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iran,
    -Lots of contracts for my buddies at Bechtel, Halliburton, Blackwater, blah, blah, blah.

    What really gets me mad is that there is NO PORSCHE DEALERSHIP IN BAGHDAD! WTF!!!!

    If I remember correctly (someone help me out), Iraq has the 2nd largest proven oil & gas reserves in the world. Ummm, that would be a big enough reason all by itself as India and China become more reliant on Gulf oil each year. Yeah.



    Dude, your out thinking yourself! Your logic reminds me of the Iranians I knew in the 70's who swore that the US Hostages in Tehran were there because of a Reagan conspiracy
    to get rid of Jimmy Carter.

    Re: all about oil?.

    I was thinking it was more along the lines of:
    - oil consumption is growing
    - oil discoveries are slowing

    Solution A: increase fuel efficiency
    Solution B: seize the remaining oil fields and keep wasting fuel at the current rate, tell the rest of the world to p*ss off

    While Europe and Japan went for solution A, the US went for solution B.
    I'm not going to say that President Bush only did so because VP Cheney likes awarding no-bid contracts to Halliburton, but I think it's typical of the short-term mentality of the elites in the US. Energy efficiency may be politically a hard sell, especially in the US, but it's the only way to go.

    That said, we all own gaz-guzzling Porsches, so who are we to complain? You'll have to pry that gasoline 3.6L from under my dead, cold rear hood

    ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    if we're in Iraq for the oil we are doing a CRAPPY job.... if that's our purpose - pave it over and turn it into a Chevron or SHUT UP about this we're in it for oil thing.....

    Re: ALSO ...... at $3.00 a gallon

    Hahaha! You guys crack me up! Good sense of humor. Love you dudes. The original plan was that oil successfully pumped from Iraq would pay for reconstruction. It was to be a self-financing operation. Wait. Change 1: Insurgents blow up the pipelines each week. Change 2: Oil infrastructure was more hosed up (pardon the pun) than we expected so oil capacity was much lower than expected. So instead we pump in billions of dollars each week to support the reconstruction effort and provide free healthcare insurance for every Iraq (damn, we don't do that for Americans at home--WTF? Who's running this "war"). I don't understand how people, who believe in a particular ideology can support this war. It's (the policy, not individuals...no personal attacks intended) crazy.

    Re: About the WMD...

    My heart goes out to all english rennlisters.

    I don't want to get into politic but I will say just this. This issue is not simply about oil, this goes further back and is much deeper and broader. It has to do with the clash of two ways of life that each encompass different religious views, political systems, socioculture, historic backround, educational and civil advancement, and of course economical interests. And this is not going to stop until those differences resolve in time if ever.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    I think they stoped looking for WMD in Iraq. So basicaly Saddam was telling the truth when he said that he did not have any. Guess who's the liyer now.



    I was in London today, I was at Aldgate Station early this morning, before the bombing occured. I was lucky, many others weren't.

    I really shouldn't get involved in this but some things are just a little too much.

    If Saddam "didn't have WMD" what do you think he used on the Marsh Arabs, harsh language? We know he had them, he used them, mercilessly. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The invasion of Iraq was messy, and the arguments for doing it were not entirely waterproof, of that there can be no doubt, but I think another 25 years of the terror and oppression that Saddam enjoyed inflicting would have been far, far worse. And his two f*ckpig sons would have been happy to continue it.

    I'm no big fan of any politician or leader, but I have to say that I find the defending of Saddam's integrity pretty offensive.

    br d

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Glad you made it! Do you think you will take the tube again?

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    I just want to say that today, some tough memories came to my mind.....Indeed is very tragic to see again those images on tv ...

    A very sad feeling

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    br d said:
    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    I think they stoped looking for WMD in Iraq. So basicaly Saddam was telling the truth when he said that he did not have any. Guess who's the liyer now.



    I was in London today, I was at Aldgate Station early this morning, before the bombing occured. I was lucky, many others weren't.

    I really shouldn't get involved in this but some things are just a little too much.

    If Saddam "didn't have WMD" what do you think he used on the Marsh Arabs, harsh language? We know he had them, he used them, mercilessly. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The invasion of Iraq was messy, and the arguments for doing it were are not entirely waterproof, of that there can be no doubt, but I think another 25 years of the terror and oppression that Saddam enjoyed inflicting would have been far, far worse. And his two f*ckpig sons would have been happy to continue it.

    I'm no big fan of any politician or leader, but I have to say that I find the defending Saddam's integrity pretty offensive.

    br d


    Sorry : there is a confusion between bellicose Irak before Gulfwar one ans UNO inspections, and bloodless Irak after Gulfwar one and UNO inspections.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    ...my thoughts and prayers and well-wishes to all my fellow rennteamer's in and around London today~~


    it is a sad and frustrating event for all of us...

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    I know what you mean. Seven of my friends and co-workers were killed in the Pentagon. I was on my way there when I caught a glimpse of the 2nd plane hitting the Towers on CNN. I decided to hang back for a few minutes before heading over to the Pentagon. Fate was on my side yet again. Life goes on my friend.

    When I heard the news about London, Madrid was the first thing that I thought of and then my own situation. It's ashame how violent our species is.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Sad day, very sad. All the thoughts to Londoners.

    On another: I'm surprised the political thread did not turn into French bashing (yet)!...

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Sad day, very sad. All the thoughts to Londoners.

    On another: I'm surprised the political thread did not turn into French bashin (yet)!...


    Please, what means "bashin" ?

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Quote:
    br d said:
    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    I think they stoped looking for WMD in Iraq. So basicaly Saddam was telling the truth when he said that he did not have any. Guess who's the liyer now.



    I was in London today, I was at Aldgate Station early this morning, before the bombing occured. I was lucky, many others weren't.

    I really shouldn't get involved in this but some things are just a little too much.

    If Saddam "didn't have WMD" what do you think he used on the Marsh Arabs, harsh language? We know he had them, he used them, mercilessly. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The invasion of Iraq was messy, and the arguments for doing it were are not entirely waterproof, of that there can be no doubt, but I think another 25 years of the terror and oppression that Saddam enjoyed inflicting would have been far, far worse. And his two f*ckpig sons would have been happy to continue it.

    I'm no big fan of any politician or leader, but I have to say that I find the defending Saddam's integrity pretty offensive.

    br d


    Sorry : there is a confusion between bellicose Irak before Gulfwar one ans UNO inspections, and bloodless Irak after Gulfwar one and UNO inspections.



    Iraq was not "bloodless" after Gulf 1. They executed Kuwaiti POWs,Iranian POWs,Kurds,their own people,continued to try to shoot down allied aircraft, tried to kill the leadership of Kuwait and the ex pres of the US war, paid for suicide bombers in Israel and used oil revenues for weapons and not food or medicine.

    Hussein is a [censored] arrogant fool who played at being a junior grade Stalin too long and self destructed.

    Does that meet "bloodless" by Belgian standards? I think not.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Bashin' = frapper.

    Jim, yeah, he was all those things and the glue that kept Iraq together. Now what will happen? Maybe a happy ending? peace, love, and democracy for all in Iraq. I think not. There will be a civil war, the country will break up, and potentially destabilize the region. Oh, and stand-by for the ripple effect back in the States of financing the war. Worth it? I tend to follow the school of Realpolitik, and taking out the trash in Baghdad is going to cost us more lives and money than other courses of action.

    If you wanted to get Hussein out, there were better ways to do it:

    -Be his buddy
    -Sell him weapons
    -Get close to him with our advisers
    -Kill him and install another regime that would help us contain Iran.
    -All low-key. Hmm, and amoral.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Sad day, very sad. All the thoughts to Londoners.

    On another: I'm surprised the political thread did not turn into French bashin (yet)!...


    Please, what means "bashin" ?



    Sorry, typo, meant bashing....means a sport which consists in verbally hitting France and its citizens :-)

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Iraq was not "bloodless" after Gulf 1. They executed Kuwaiti POWs,Iranian POWs,Kurds,their own people,continued to try to shoot down allied aircraft, tried to kill the leadership of Kuwait and the ex pres of the US war, paid for suicide bombers in Israel and used oil revenues for weapons and not food or medicine.



    And continued to torture, rape and execute at will.

    Perhaps we are confused Jim, I thought Saddam was the same psycopathic tyrant after the first Gulf War as he was before it.

    br d

     
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