Crown

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nberry said:

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MG said:
Can someone put a link or a scan of the magazine where they found this.

It was in one of the American magazines and they were testing a C6 and Carrera S. The base Carrera was out of its class so they needed to use the S. Try C&D or Motor Trend. The Corvette ended up out pointing the S based on price though the magazine felt overall the Porsche more of a refined sport car.

The 2006 Z06 would chew up the S. Its only competition will be the TT and that is questionable since the Z06 out performed the 996 TT with Hurley Haywood driving the TT.

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nberry said:

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MKSGR said:

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nberry said:
There will be many nay sayers but I am hearing from very reliable sources the Z06 will out perform all the European cars with the exception of the CGT, Enzo and the speciality cars like the Radical and Dunkerfoort. If this time holds up then Porsche which designs all its cars for the Ring performance is going to have to put a TT engine in the Cayman to beat the Z06.

Common guys. This is getting ridiculous. We are talking about a GM product here. At its price a Corvette may offer a fair value. But it is not in the same league as a Porsche. Outside the US hardly anybody would consider it as an alternative to a serious sports car.

The 400hp version is slower than a 350hp Carrera. In straight line performance as well as on the track. CR even passed the 400hp Corvette in his Cayenne (!) on the Autobahn recently! And then you guys consider the possibility that the "Z06" might be close to a GT2 in terms of performance? With run flat tires and 500hp which probably equal about 400 Porsche hp?

The Corvette's only advantage is its low price. I cannot envisage any serious TT or GT2 buyer to even consider a car like the Corvette

Your are dead wrong. The C6 beat the 997S in all test EXCEPT stopping distance 100-0.

The fact GM makes the car indicates it is not worthy of a Porsche? It is cheaper, faster in every category and close quality wise. The reason it does not sell in Europe is because of the protectionist attitude of the various countries.

With the strength of the Euro, the Corvette can be bought in Europe for less than what it cost in the US. However the various duties and taxes protect the local products.

BTW, for FYI guess what car is rated the best in Germany from the standpoint in quality...Toyota; Madza and then BMW.

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nberry said:

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MG said:
Can someone put a link or a scan of the magazine where they found this.

The 2006 Z06 would chew up the S. Its only competition will be the TT and that is questionable since the Z06 out performed the 996 TT with Hurley Haywood driving the TT.

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elysium said:

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nberry said:

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MG said:
Can someone put a link or a scan of the magazine where they found this.

It was in one of the American magazines and they were testing a C6 and Carrera S. The base Carrera was out of its class so they needed to use the S. Try C&D or Motor Trend. The Corvette ended up out pointing the S based on price though the magazine felt overall the Porsche more of a refined sport car.

The 2006 Z06 would chew up the S. Its only competition will be the TT and that is questionable since the Z06 out performed the 996 TT with Hurley Haywood driving the TT.

Article: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=8774&page_number=1

Firstly, it was a base 997 with 325hp, and a Z51 Corvette (the same suspension and chassis package as the c5 Z06 had). So you're right about the C6 being the quickest and by far the cheapest, but it might have been a different story with the S..

Some selective quots from the article which might explain a bit more:

"At speed, how accurately can you place the car? With the 911, the answer is in fractions of an inch; with the Vette, it's in inches"

"We never thought this would be such a close match."

""The 911 doesn't throw you around nearly as much as the Vette over bumpy curves, and it's noticeably more stable." And this: "With the Vette, you have to tell yourself it's going to stay glued to the road, but in the 911, there's no need to wonder.""

"The Chevy can be driven extremely quickly, but it doesn't inspire the same confidence as the Porsche."

The Z06 is going to be one hell of a car for its price, but the hype seams a bit out of reason. With a warranty for track use as well it would be amazing, but it will still not be the same kind of car as the Porsche. It will have the raw performance but not the feel, elegance and confidence of the higher priced competitors.

And although you love to troll about the huge income Porsche makes on their cars, when C&D only have the Z51 C6 in front of the base 997 with 1 point in a 200 point run, it might be an indication against a Porsche customer ripoff.

elysium

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Grant said:
On the Corvette websites, they're claiming the new Z06 did 7:40 (source is Auto-Bild Magazine in Germany). That is a scorching time for a car that costs $65k. That is well faster than a 996 GT2...

Can any of our German friends confirm this?

BTW, the Z06 comes with run-flat tires that are not so hot - worse than regular street tires like Michelin PS2. With R-rubber (like the BMW CSL and GT3RS), the time would've been incredible!

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RC said:Fact is: there is NO official confirmation for this "record", so in my eyes this is worth NOTHING.
I heard so many stories from other cars regarding "record" numbers, just forget about such claims.

I stick with SPORT AUTO and their SUPERTEST on the Nordschleife.

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Grant said:
I think you may be right, Nick. And for all you naysayers, I think if Porsche customers took competition like the Corvette a bit more seriously, the results would be VERY positive for us, the customers.

If Porsche perceived a need to compete with Corvette on price and performance, maybe we'd get something like a Cayman with a GT3 motor, gearbox, LSD, and suspension for $65k, instead of PASM, no LSD, and a de-tuned 1999 996 wet sump motor for $58k...

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SoCalHoosier said:

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Grant said:
I think you may be right, Nick. And for all you naysayers, I think if Porsche customers took competition like the Corvette a bit more seriously, the results would be VERY positive for us, the customers.

If Porsche perceived a need to compete with Corvette on price and performance, maybe we'd get something like a Cayman with a GT3 motor, gearbox, LSD, and suspension for $65k, instead of PASM, no LSD, and a de-tuned 1999 996 wet sump motor for $58k...

I totally agree Grant. Porsche markets the way they do because we as customers don't voice our complaints. We instead reward them by buying slightly modified cars over and over again. They need to go back to factory racing and they need to spend more on R & D.

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RC said:

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Grant said:
On the Corvette websites, they're claiming the new Z06 did 7:40 (source is Auto-Bild Magazine in Germany). That is a scorching time for a car that costs $65k. That is well faster than a 996 GT2...

Can any of our German friends confirm this?

BTW, the Z06 comes with run-flat tires that are not so hot - worse than regular street tires like Michelin PS2. With R-rubber (like the BMW CSL and GT3RS), the time would've been incredible!

Grant, Corvette drivers over here in Germany love to rub that under Porsche owners' noses. Fact is: there is NO official confirmation for this "record", so in my eyes this is worth NOTHING.
I heard so many stories from other cars regarding "record" numbers, just forget about such claims.

I stick with SPORT AUTO and their SUPERTEST on the Nordschleife.

And a final note: a few german car magazines did a 997 CS vs. Corvette C6 (not Z06!) comparison tests and they all were surprised that from 0-125 mph, the 997 CS was only by half a second faster than the C6.
Last weekend I was driving to Wolfratshausen (near Munich, the Autobahn which leads to Garmisch Partenkirchen) in my Cayenne Turbo with my wife, the two kids and some luggage. In front of me a C6 Cab with two persons in it, manual (I was able to see it while he was next to my left when driving in a speed limited zone).
In a speed range from 120-240 kph, the C6 Cab wasn't able to leave me behind. At around 180 kph, he decided to move to the right and I was able to pass him VERY VERY slowly up to a speed of 240 kph.

The Cayenne Turbo Powerkit has been tested at around 19.5 seconds from 0-125 mph, the C6 Cab in a review I read somewhere in the past at around 17 seconds. So here's the question of the day: is my Cayenne Turbo THAT good or does GM provide "special" cars to the press in Europe ?

I agree with one thing only: the C6 delivers a LOT of sports car and fun for it's price tag. Over here in Germany, I even heard that you can get brandnew C6 from GM dealers at a substantial discount below 50000 Euro.
So maybe GM wants to "penetrate" the german market to be able to sell more cars and future models in Europe?! At the current Euro/USD exchange rate, this would be really interesting for them.

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Grant said:
I think you may be right, Nick. And for all you naysayers, I think if Porsche customers took competition like the Corvette a bit more seriously, the results would be VERY positive for us, the customers.

If Porsche perceived a need to compete with Corvette on price and performance, maybe we'd get something like a Cayman with a GT3 motor, gearbox, LSD, and suspension for $65k, instead of PASM, no LSD, and a de-tuned 1999 996 wet sump motor for $58k...

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JimFlat6 said:
RC, One autobahn duel between strangers in vehicles of unknown mileage, condition and driver intention is really more anecdotal than evidence of a press car conspiracy.

Manufacturers press car fleets seem to have two types of cars in them, virgins and the walking dead. Kind of obvious that the bigger media get the fresh cars and the smaller media gets the victims.

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RC said:
...I agree with one thing only: the C6 delivers a LOT of sports car and fun for it's price tag. Over here in Germany, I even heard that you can get brandnew C6 from GM dealers at a substantial discount below 50000 Euro.
...

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kunal said:
There are pictures of this "Z06" that did the 7:40 laptime. The pictures are the same pictures that are of the supposedly new "Blue Devil." The Blue Devil is supposed to be a 600hp Vette. These are just some more rumors of what Vette was actually lapping.

Kunal

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RC said:

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JimFlat6 said:
RC, One autobahn duel between strangers in vehicles of unknown mileage, condition and driver intention is really more anecdotal than evidence of a press car conspiracy.

Manufacturers press car fleets seem to have two types of cars in them, virgins and the walking dead. Kind of obvious that the bigger media get the fresh cars and the smaller media gets the victims.

I'm not sure about that. It is no big deal to accelerate on a straight line (not even from standstill) and my Cayenne Turbo was fully fueled and almost fully loaded.
The C6 driver tried hard, this is why he didn't move to the right when the right lane was empty.
When I passed him on the left, I did that very very slowly. So he was driving with all he got.

I don't think there is a "press conspiracy" but it is well known that some car manufacturers deliver testcars which are far beyond the factory specs. There are some good examples from the past and even Porsche once did that when they apparently had enough of those AMG superpower cars and delivered a very nice going 996 Turbo for a comparison with the SL55. 7:40 on the Nordschleife are ridiculous for the C6 Z06. Look at the confirmed Carrera GT or GT2 times.
I don't say it isn't possible, it is just very unlikely.
Official "records" usually unveil the technical status of the car, tires, power, weight reduction, etc.

I don't know if SPORT AUTO plans a C6 Z06 test in the near future but if I know Horst von Saurma very well, I think he already contacted GM for a testcar.

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666 Z06 said:
This is the text from Auto Bild :

REKORD WAR NICHT DRIN

Gerade erst GT1-Klassensieger in Le Mans, gab Jan Magnusson kurz darauf am Nürburgring Gas. Mit der Corvette Z06 sollte der Rundenrekord fallen - knackige Werbung für die neue Sport-Corvette. Doch mehr als gute 7.40 Minuten war nicht drin. Der Nordschleifen-Rekord für Serienautos hält weiterhin ein Donkervoort RS: 7.18.01!

Accompanying the article is a photo of a blue Z06 on the 'Ring.

The time of 7:40 has been independently corroborated by two employees of the garages at the Nordschleife.

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Dr. Phil said:
I've tried to find any confirmation or even a rumour about this alleged Nürburgring time, but nothing to be found at Jan Magnussen's homepage, the Corvette site or any other place.
I have no clue if the Z06 did what this story claimed or not. Maybe the story was planted to make people like us do exactly what we have been doing: Talk about the Z06. In which case I must congratulate Chevy on a PR job well done.

If they actually pulled a 7.40 timne in a stock Z06 I must congratulate Jan Magnussen on making the best of this car.
Anyone knows it takes a Dane to get the best out of any car
Ok,seriously, it would be fun if the Z06 hade set a great time.

You all seem to keep talking about the Chevy as a competitor to Porsche, and you keep mentioning laptimes, HPs, revs, accelleration and not least price all the time.
IMO they can build a 2000 bhp Vette that can make a NB-ring time of 3 miniutes straight...it's still a Vette. It's still american and unrefined.
Forget facts - I'm talking perception here.
If GM wants to convince potential Porsche buyers, that he/she should pick the Vette istead (uuh-hoo, it rhymes!) they should focus A LOT more on the intangeable values instead of figures.

Chevy making a fast Vette is like McDonald's making a low-fat burger. It's still a burger!
It's not a sirloin steak, and it's not classy. It simply lacks class.
I honestly dont think american car producers realize this.

If you want somethijng classy, elegant, refined, unique or exclusive, you'd better make sure it doesn't say "made in Taiwan" or "made in USA" on it.
Unless you really want butch like Catarpillar construction equipment, an orange county chopper, beer, burgers and the like.

I checked out the Vette Z06 again, and the lines of the car have become very un-american and very european. It looks fine...but it has that awkward look IMO.
Kinda like looking at a family from a trailer park in rural Alabama. You know something is wrong, but you just can't figure out exactly where the DNA material and bloodline got contaminated.


Chevy is fighting ghosts. The ghost of the 911 legacy, the ghost of Ferraris past, the ghost of european design, history and heritage.
The Vette may very well be a more effective sportscar than both the 911 and the 430 - but ask yourself this:
Would you ever buy one over a 911 or 430?

It may have the V-factor, but it lacks the P-factor.
Without it, it's still just a fast low-calorie burger.

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turbolite said:
I think the arguments of classiness, heritage etc miss the point. and that is that this seems to be an extremely capable car for a reasonable budget. owning a TT i know Porsches are fab cars, but i think a bit of humility should help in the discussion. lets wait for the sport auto test and then we judge. but just to say its not gonna be any good cause its a GM product sounds very superficial to me. fact is the corvette team just won le mans in a category P doesnt even compete in. so they must be able to do something right!!

and btw: even if it did 'only' 7.44 with Saurma I would still think of it as an awesome performance for the money!
cheers

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Dr. Phil said:

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turbolite said:
I think the arguments of classiness, heritage etc miss the point. and that is that this seems to be an extremely capable car for a reasonable budget. owning a TT i know Porsches are fab cars, but i think a bit of humility should help in the discussion. lets wait for the sport auto test and then we judge. but just to say its not gonna be any good cause its a GM product sounds very superficial to me. fact is the corvette team just won le mans in a category P doesnt even compete in. so they must be able to do something right!!

and btw: even if it did 'only' 7.44 with Saurma I would still think of it as an awesome performance for the money!
cheers

The arguments about branding (e.g. classiness, style, heritage, snob-effect etc) absolutely ARE the point here IMO.
My point is that you can keep arguing that Vette delivers more sportscar on a rational basis (i.e. more BHP pr $, more speed etc etc etc), but unless Porsche starts building crappy cars or half their performance or take some other unlikely action, the Porsche brand will continue to be more attractive than that of the Vette.
The appeal of Porsche simply outguns the Vette.

This isn't a battle that is fought and won on the tracks or the streets.
It's fought in the minds of the consumers. And IMO Porsche has nearly won that battle before it's even begun.

I have a lot of respect for the Vette performance.
But what it delivers on the track it can't deliver in terms of brand value.

IMO it's as simple as that.

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turbolite said:

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Dr. Phil said:

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turbolite said:
I think the arguments of classiness, heritage etc miss the point. and that is that this seems to be an extremely capable car for a reasonable budget. owning a TT i know Porsches are fab cars, but i think a bit of humility should help in the discussion. lets wait for the sport auto test and then we judge. but just to say its not gonna be any good cause its a GM product sounds very superficial to me. fact is the corvette team just won le mans in a category P doesnt even compete in. so they must be able to do something right!!

and btw: even if it did 'only' 7.44 with Saurma I would still think of it as an awesome performance for the money!
cheers

The arguments about branding (e.g. classiness, style, heritage, snob-effect etc) absolutely ARE the point here IMO.
My point is that you can keep arguing that Vette delivers more sportscar on a rational basis (i.e. more BHP pr $, more speed etc etc etc), but unless Porsche starts building crappy cars or half their performance or take some other unlikely action, the Porsche brand will continue to be more attractive than that of the Vette.
The appeal of Porsche simply outguns the Vette.

This isn't a battle that is fought and won on the tracks or the streets.
It's fought in the minds of the consumers. And IMO Porsche has nearly won that battle before it's even begun.

I have a lot of respect for the Vette performance.
But what it delivers on the track it can't deliver in terms of brand value.

IMO it's as simple as that.

Well, so we agree, cause I too think Porsches cachet cant be matched by any Corvette. but that does not make it a lesser sportscar by itself...