Crown

Let me see if I can put in a word about the business practice of Porsche SD to PCNA.............

OTOH the case that buyers are willing to pay above the official retail price enhances the image of a brand. This creates a great hype and excitement about certain models and a part of this desirability spills over to the rest of the range and to the brand name in general.

In most markets you cannot get certain Rolex watches without paying a premium. How was the legend of Daytona SS created?

Why should a manufacturer be concerned? It's good for image and it helps dealers make some extra money, especially when the overall market is down.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

The Ferrari brand is as good if not better than Porsche. Their dealers do very well and have a loyal client base. They are not allowed to sell above MSRP.

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

No ADMs in Australia. Strictly manufacturer’s pricing.

No issues with brand awareness or support.

nberry:

The Ferrari brand is as good if not better than Porsche. Their dealers do very well and have a loyal client base. They are not allowed to sell above MSRP.

Ah Ferrari. Their dealers are the ones who started the trend of jacking up used car prices and make potential buyers buy up a bunch of those before handing out new car allocations. That was one way to keep the used car market up and give value the customers they ripped off in the first place. This practice is happening all over the world, not just in America. But lately, because of the amount of cars Ferrari made and the economy, the used car pricing has gone soft. 

Your own government is to blame for dealers, be it Porsche or GM or Ford, for allowing them to sell cars above MSRP. The dealer networks for car brands are too powerful in the USA, not just Porsche's. Do you think Porsche doesn't want to reign in these practices? What the dealers are doing to new cars are giving the brand a sour taste in the mouth for potential customers. These ADMs doesn't happen here in Canada for Porsche dealers, not anywhere else's Porsche dealers, it's is a wholly American thing. 

PCNA can only do so much. what they need is for actual clients to make a complaint to them directly, gather enough of those and they will have the ammunition to go after the bad dealer. Hearsay and what's written in the news doesn't work so well. But they also only have a limited set of tools to dish out punishments, cutting allocation for GT cars is one of those, but that bite only hurt so much. Revoking the franchise agreement is the last resort, but there aren't exactly a long line of people lining up waiting to get a Porsche franchise. 

From the client's point of view, it just looks bad all around, and thinking Porsche, via PCNA isn't doing anything if at all. But from the point of view of PCNA, their hands are pretty much tied by your government's regulations, which grants dealers A LOT of power, all thanks to the powerful lobbying from car dealers. 

Ferrari retail prices prices are heavily inflated by the factory anyway and probably they cannot warrant any further premium loading.

If you compare Porsche and Ferrari like with like in terms of performance, durability and usability Ferrari pricing is very excessive and rather exorbitant. Something like the Purosangue costing twice as much as the Turbo GT!!

--

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

There’s a Dominican adage “Crea fama y acuéstate a dormir”, Create fame and go to sleep. That’s what Ferrari has done, the markup is there because it can be and no amount of logic will bring the price down. 

Whoopsy:

From the client's point of view, it just looks bad all around, and thinking Porsche, via PCNA isn't doing anything if at all. But from the point of view of PCNA, their hands are pretty much tied by your government's regulations, which grants dealers A LOT of power, all thanks to the powerful lobbying from car dealers. 

My info is that PCNA lawyers are quite frightened about counter lawsuits if they go after dealers for ADM practices, etc., owing to a lawsuit from a large southern Florida dealer over straw buyers when Porsche tried to revoke their franchise.  Nasty business.

Mike

918 Spyder + 992 GT3 Touring + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T

W8MM:

Whoopsy:

From the client's point of view, it just looks bad all around, and thinking Porsche, via PCNA isn't doing anything if at all. But from the point of view of PCNA, their hands are pretty much tied by your government's regulations, which grants dealers A LOT of power, all thanks to the powerful lobbying from car dealers. 

My info is that PCNA lawyers are quite frightened about counter lawsuits if they go after dealers for ADM practices, etc., owing to a lawsuit from a large southern Florida dealer over straw buyers when Porsche tried to revoke their franchise.  Nasty business.

One of the reasons. 

Like I said, dealers got too powerful in the US.

Nick, I do not pretend to know as much as you regarding Porsche corporate practices. Porsche is well aware of what their dealers are doing. They can cut allocations not only for the GT cars but on other desirable models if a dealer persists in trying to fleece Porsche loyal customer base. Litigation would not be an issue/fear because it's within Porsche rights to distribute allocations to which ever dealership they wish to. 

As far as writing directly to PCNA or even Porsche WW corporate, you receive a form return letter basically tell you they can't control pricing of the car once it's delivered to the dealer. GM and Ford are and have taken action to stop the practice. Why doesn't Porsche? Porsche dealers make almost as much money on service as they do selling cars. I believe service provides the dealer 45% of its profit.

Regarding the argument that Ferrari doesn't charge ADM because its already built into their pricing is hogwash. Ferrari profit margin per car is around 20% while Porsche's is around 16%. Porsche sells ten times the number of cars as  Ferrari.

The bottom line is Porsche doesn't want to discourage the practice. It is interesting to note there are a few Porsche dealers that are selling the GT cars at MSRP. Rightly they sell the cars to their loyal customers. I do not have interest in any of the models Porsche is selling today. When the 992.2 is introduced, I may change my mind but only if the car is sold at MSRP. Unless Porsche takes action, its unlikely I will  buying a another Porsche.

One final point FWIW. Generally the salesperson does not participate in receiving commissions on ADM's. Their commission is based solely on the MSRP of the vehicle. Another example of Porsche dealer greed.

--

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

Nick, the new management spec's every GT car and sets the price for each one. Buyers are invited to bid on the car. To my knowledge, customers do not spec Porsche GT cars at my dealership. The dealer takes all the allocations for himself. 

That's disgusting... and Porsche is just as responsible for allowing it.

Agreed but I think that this isn't only Porsche.

I just read that used BWM M3 Competition in the USA are sold at MSRP or even over MSRP because new cars are barely available and when they are available, dealers sell them 5-10k USD over MSRP. Insane. The new M3 CS is currently at 20k over MSRP. Funny: I received 5% discount on mine and haven't even asked for it. 

A local independent car dealer sells a new Cayman GT4 RS for almost 240k EUR. I know how this car got there...

Production slots for "normal" customers who really want to drive these cars are basically not available.

Even Gercollector, one of the biggest car influencers and a collector (who really drives his cars) in Germany, had to get his GT3 RS order from a dealership in the North of Germany because the dealers (several) near his home didn't have a production slot for him.

You either have connections, pay over MSRP or your chances to get a car are very slim.

My decision to go for a M3 CS instead for a GT3 Touring was also a little bit based on the fact that I had a production slot shortly before the facelift and it wouldn't have been changeable. I thought for a very long time about it but I decided to go a different route because while the GT3 Touring would have made a nice daily driver, I think the M3 CS is the better choice for me and also almost 50k EUR cheaper.

Still...with all my connections and contacts, I wasn't able to secure a car earlier than 2024. I know people who already have production slots for mid/end 2023 and who give a crap about these cars, they just want to resell them or to add them to their collection. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

nberry:

Nick, I do not pretend to know as much as you regarding Porsche corporate practices. Porsche is well aware of what their dealers are doing. They can cut allocations not only for the GT cars but on other desirable models if a dealer persists in trying to fleece Porsche loyal customer base. Litigation would not be an issue/fear because it's within Porsche rights to distribute allocations to which ever dealership they wish to. 

As far as writing directly to PCNA or even Porsche WW corporate, you receive a form return letter basically tell you they can't control pricing of the car once it's delivered to the dealer. GM and Ford are and have taken action to stop the practice. Why doesn't Porsche? Porsche dealers make almost as much money on service as they do selling cars. I believe service provides the dealer 45% of its profit.

Regarding the argument that Ferrari doesn't charge ADM because its already built into their pricing is hogwash. Ferrari profit margin per car is around 20% while Porsche's is around 16%. Porsche sells ten times the number of cars as  Ferrari.

The bottom line is Porsche doesn't want to discourage the practice. It is interesting to note there are a few Porsche dealers that are selling the GT cars at MSRP. Rightly they sell the cars to their loyal customers. I do not have interest in any of the models Porsche is selling today. When the 992.2 is introduced, I may change my mind but only if the car is sold at MSRP. Unless Porsche takes action, its unlikely I will  buying a another Porsche.

One final point FWIW. Generally the salesperson does not participate in receiving commissions on ADM's. Their commission is based solely on the MSRP of the vehicle. Another example of Porsche dealer greed.

--

 

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

 

One won't be writing a letter about ADM, it's a letter about them falsifying orders. Quite a different thing. 

IF the orders are valid customer orders, and the dealer is able to tack on ADM before delivery, then yes, nothing wrong there as your laws allow ADM practice.

But in this case, the dealer is making up fake orders in order to obtain cars so they can flip them. That's a completely different thing. 

Unless of course those orders aren't fake, the customers whose information got used for the order are in the loop and they get a cut of the profit or some other forms of benefits. 

Either way, PCNA will needed to be notified and look into it as their 'system' is being compromised. The dealer should be penalized for faking orders, or those customers be black listed in the system.

Nick, Porsche with minimal effort can determine whether their dealers are gaming the system. With even less effort, they can stop it. Hopefully, they choose to take their head out of the sand and think of their public customers.

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

nberry:

Nick, Porsche with minimal effort can determine whether their dealers are gaming the system. With even less effort, they can stop it. Hopefully, they choose to take their head out of the sand and think of their public customers.

Their 'effort' means sending out notifications on the My Porsche app about their up coming new car.

Your dealer is gaming the system on how it is setup, they pick and choose existing clients that aren't into these 'tech'. They won't get those notifications and won't find out their had ordered numerous cars. Those clients are valid names for PCNA, and these people ordering cars won't even bat an eyebrow in Atlanta. Not unlike if my dealer order cars under my name, Porsche Canada won't even question it. Difference is I am up to date on tech and I got the order in progress from the My Porsche app, thus I found out last time. 

San Diego is a rich market for Porsche, numerous residents have the means to just keep buying new cars, there was no reason for Porsche to question anything to begin with. 

Second step of the scheme would be the dealer to keep 2 sets of records, the car on delivery is entered into the system to the 'fake buyer', and they only update the record after some time has passed, so as not to flag those fake names as 'flippers', thus preserving that name for future uses. With modern Porsches only requiring service once a year, this is easy to do. The 2nd sets of record only comes into play if the car in question comes in early. 

So unless the 'fake buyer' found out and raise the issue with PCNA, or a whistleblower reports to PCNA, in PCNA's eyes nothing is wrong. 

Very interesting, please keep us updated if anything happens

Nick, good to know. Thanks

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

The problem here is that the dealers are PCNA's representative for customer relations. Dealers knows this as PCNA won't directly contact customers, unless someone is a VVVIP. PCNA won't have first hand knowledge of anything is afoul, nothing goes back to them. if they ask the dealer, the dealer would just reply everything good. They wouldn't know John Smith who is allergic to technology in San Diego, who bought a GT car 6 years in a row, in addition to the Panamera and Cayenne he already got, didn't actually buy the GT cars. PCNA might throw an event and ask the dealer to invite the great customer Mr Smith, the dealer could just as well reply he is busy and be done with it. Schemes like this can go on forever as it is very profitable for the scumbag dealer. 

I can bet you anything, those 10 guys who 'ordered' GT4RSs at your dealer, either they are part of the scheme and got a cut, or they are some older people who doesn't do tech, and probably asked the dealer to program their radios and such even. Some might not even be alive anymore. 

What about customer surveys and gifts? Porsche sends those out to customers after they buy a car, so how would  customers NOT know that they actually “ordered” a car they never actually ordered? 🤷🏻‍♂️

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

RC:

What about customer surveys and gifts? Porsche sends those out to customers after they buy a car, so how would  customers NOT know that they actually “ordered” a car they never actually ordered? 🤷🏻‍♂️

I have received many "gifts" as a promotion to induce me to purchase a particular model.

I have received more of them for promotion than I have as a result of ordering a new Porsche.

Mike

918 Spyder + 992 GT3 Touring + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T

RC:

What about customer surveys and gifts? Porsche sends those out to customers after they buy a car, so how would  customers NOT know that they actually “ordered” a car they never actually ordered? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Surveys come via email, not everyone uses that. Hard to believe but true. Also, the email address is by the dealer into the system, not hard to change it.

I can't even remember the last time I had gotten a gift from Porsche, think it was a helmet case for my 991.1 GT3RS back in 2016. And I used to get nice aluminum paper weight for every car I bought, but that stopped around 2016 too. 

The dealers knows the system, it's not hard for them to game it and work around it. They are the middleman between clients and Porsche, clients don't normally directly communicate with Porsche save for a select few.

I have received lot of little gifts. They keep coming. Have not been to the dealer in years except to check now and then to see where I am on the GT list I put my name on in the 996 GT3 days.  This is the extent of my relationship and I’m not too unhappy about it. Perhaps I have bought many GT cars and don’t realize it. Lol. 

Today as I was backing out in a parking lot ion my RS a guy stopped me to compliment me on my car. He then told me he has owned 34 Porsche's. I asked him if he owned any Porsche's today and he said he had a new Targa which he pointed out to me parked in the lot and a Turbo S.

He then asked where I bought my car and I told him Porsche of San Diego. He asked what I thought of them and I told him I did not like the new management car selling practices. His response was this;

"I have bought most of my cars from that dealership and I tried to order a 992GT3Touring. They told me I could not order one. The dealership orders the car and the next one that comes in I could have it for $100,000 over the vehicle MSRP. I couldn't believe after all my purchases that would try to extort money from me." I told him to file a complaint with PCNA and he said he would because he believed it was illegal.

I had to move my car so I couldn't respond to indicate it was not illegal. It just a greedy dealership.

--

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

If Porsche had any long term vision, they would get rid of that dealership asap and give it to someone else...

nberry:

Today as I was backing out in a parking lot ion my RS a guy stopped me to compliment me on my car. He then told me he has owned 34 Porsche's. I asked him if he owned any Porsche's today and he said he had a new Targa which he pointed out to me parked in the lot and a Turbo S.

He then asked where I bought my car and I told him Porsche of San Diego. He asked what I thought of them and I told him I did not like the new management car selling practices. His response was this;

"I have bought most of my cars from that dealership and I tried to order a 992GT3Touring. They told me I could not order one. The dealership orders the car and the next one that comes in I could have it for $100,000 over the vehicle MSRP. I couldn't believe after all my purchases that would try to extort money from me." I told him to file a complaint with PCNA and he said he would because he believed it was illegal.

I had to move my car so I couldn't respond to indicate it was not illegal. It just a greedy dealership.

 

--

 

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

 

Well, I think Porsche is to blame in this "game" as well...they could simply produce more cars and be done with these markups. If someone believes that Porsche cannot produce more of these cars...well...  They obviously make their real money with other cars...there is a reason why some dealerships in Germany are basically asking customers to buy a Taycan first if they want a production slot for a GT3 RS...stuff like that. This is not OK in my opinion.

In the past, I got my cars through old buddies and connections at Porsche but right now, this isn't easy anymore and I refuse to play this game of begging the dealer, talking to people, trying to play the press route and many other things, just to get a GT3 RS. I was really thinking about getting one, then I wanted a GT3 Touring (makes more sense for ME since I already have the Performante) but in the end, I just don't want to wait another year, pay 50k more and have a slower car (with the exception of the track maybe). 

I always loved Porsche, still love it, they make great products but they got too expensive and too greedy (in the sense that customers who really love to drive these cars barely can get one and if they can, it is really a hassle).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

RC:

nberry:

Today as I was backing out in a parking lot ion my RS a guy stopped me to compliment me on my car. He then told me he has owned 34 Porsche's. I asked him if he owned any Porsche's today and he said he had a new Targa which he pointed out to me parked in the lot and a Turbo S.

He then asked where I bought my car and I told him Porsche of San Diego. He asked what I thought of them and I told him I did not like the new management car selling practices. His response was this;

"I have bought most of my cars from that dealership and I tried to order a 992GT3Touring. They told me I could not order one. The dealership orders the car and the next one that comes in I could have it for $100,000 over the vehicle MSRP. I couldn't believe after all my purchases that would try to extort money from me." I told him to file a complaint with PCNA and he said he would because he believed it was illegal.

I had to move my car so I couldn't respond to indicate it was not illegal. It just a greedy dealership.

 

--

 

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

 

Well, I think Porsche is to blame in this "game" as well...they could simply produce more cars and be done with these markups. If someone believes that Porsche cannot produce more of these cars...well...  They obviously make their real money with other cars...there is a reason why some dealerships in Germany are basically asking customers to buy a Taycan first if they want a production slot for a GT3 RS...stuff like that. This is not OK in my opinion.

In the past, I got my cars through old buddies and connections at Porsche but right now, this isn't easy anymore and I refuse to play this game of begging the dealer, talking to people, trying to play the press route and many other things, just to get a GT3 RS. I was really thinking about getting one, then I wanted a GT3 Touring (makes more sense for ME since I already have the Performante) but in the end, I just don't want to wait another year, pay 50k more and have a slower car (with the exception of the track maybe). 

I always loved Porsche, still love it, they make great products but they got too expensive and too greedy (in the sense that customers who really love to drive these cars barely can get one and if they can, it is really a hassle).

Christian, I couldn't written it any better. Your sentence encapsulates my feels about Porsche. 

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

Enmanuel:

There’s a Dominican adage “Crea fama y acuéstate a dormir”, Create fame and go to sleep. That’s what Ferrari has done, the markup is there because it can be and no amount of logic will bring the price down. 

YUP -- Ferrari and Porsche overs are ultimately set by demand for the products.  

E.G.: a turbo S at retail [230 usd] is really underpriced for performance, US overs around 270 usd are quite reasonable  to me, so why waste time and energy chasing a few bucks.

A 2020 900 mile PISTA retails at 500 fully loaded but markets for 610-630us. The Ferrari overs we are all used too; 
I've been paying them off and on since my first Strad in 2004.

The PuroSangue example is the kind of over that is ridiculous based solely on newness and early demand.  We all can avoid wasting money by avoiding this pig of a rig. But some can justify   And when cars are largely based on show-off factor and are completely discretionary purchases, markets are priced based on who needs the type of exces the product bdeliverss:  E.G.: performance for sports car buyers, new/show 0ff/soccer mommy for PS, etc, 

RC:

nberry:

Today as I was backing out in a parking lot ion my RS a guy stopped me to compliment me on my car. He then told me he has owned 34 Porsche's. I asked him if he owned any Porsche's today and he said he had a new Targa which he pointed out to me parked in the lot and a Turbo S.

He then asked where I bought my car and I told him Porsche of San Diego. He asked what I thought of them and I told him I did not like the new management car selling practices. His response was this;

"I have bought most of my cars from that dealership and I tried to order a 992GT3Touring. They told me I could not order one. The dealership orders the car and the next one that comes in I could have it for $100,000 over the vehicle MSRP. I couldn't believe after all my purchases that would try to extort money from me." I told him to file a complaint with PCNA and he said he would because he believed it was illegal.

I had to move my car so I couldn't respond to indicate it was not illegal. It just a greedy dealership.

 

--

 

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

 

Well, I think Porsche is to blame in this "game" as well...they could simply produce more cars and be done with these markups. If someone believes that Porsche cannot produce more of these cars...well...  They obviously make their real money with other cars...there is a reason why some dealerships in Germany are basically asking customers to buy a Taycan first if they want a production slot for a GT3 RS...stuff like that. This is not OK in my opinion.

In the past, I got my cars through old buddies and connections at Porsche but right now, this isn't easy anymore and I refuse to play this game of begging the dealer, talking to people, trying to play the press route and many other things, just to get a GT3 RS. I was really thinking about getting one, then I wanted a GT3 Touring (makes more sense for ME since I already have the Performante) but in the end, I just don't want to wait another year, pay 50k more and have a slower car (with the exception of the track maybe). 

I always loved Porsche, still love it, they make great products but they got too expensive and too greedy (in the sense that customers who really love to drive these cars barely can get one and if they can, it is really a hassle).

Christian, I believe the reason why Porsche can't produce too many of the GT cars is due to emissions, they've to balance out the numbers with the Taycan and other less CO2 producing cars.

They could...but this would lower their margins per car.  If you produce more CO2, you can pay some sort of a "fine"... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

My sales guy told me he needs to sell two Taycan for each GT car. Not always easy. I am sure some dealers don't take more GT cars in just for this reason. 

Gnil:

My sales guy told me he needs to sell two Taycan for each GT car. Not always easy. I am sure some dealers don't take more GT cars in just for this reason. 

Of course this is another reason but for Porsche, it would be relatively easy (but probably not that profitable) to raise production numbers and to put less pressure on dealers (not even sure Porsche is always to blame...).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)