Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history? - Page1

May 7, 2003 7:15:44 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002

Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

There is a rumor that DC wants to dump the supercharger from their future car models. Apparently, the bi-turbo V12 impressed a lot of people and so there seem to exist serious thoughts among DC officials to abandon the supercharger on all 4/6/8 cyl. engines and replace it with a turbo charger (4/6 cyl.) or even two turbo-chargers (V8 and V12 engines).

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May 7, 2003 7:41:09 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

I have the suspicion that the bi-turbo V12 is putting out a significantly greater amount of horsepower than the V8 Kompressor, despite similar ratings. It's hard to compare the two otherwise though. One is turbine smooth and the other still has a hod-rod quality.

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May 7, 2003 7:41:09 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

I have the suspicion that the bi-turbo V12 is putting out a significantly greater amount of horsepower than the V8 Kompressor, despite similar ratings. It's hard to compare the two otherwise though. One is turbine smooth and the other still has a hod-rod quality.

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May 7, 2003 7:57:35 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Justin

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

Quote:
I have the suspicion that the bi-turbo V12 is putting out a significantly greater amount of horsepower than the V8 Kompressor, despite similar ratings. It's hard to compare the two otherwise though. One is turbine smooth and the other still has a hod-rod quality.

Right, Justin. The V12 bi-turbo is so powerful, I heard that some people at AMG aren't happy about it. Maybe one reason why they used it on the new CL 65 AMG.

From a financial point of view, it would make sense to build only turbo charged engines. This could save a lot of money.
There is even a rumor, that the new SLR will have a brandnew V12 bi-turbo charged engine with almost 700 HP but right now, I have no official or even unofficial confirmation on that.
Sounds good though.

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May 7, 2003 7:57:35 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Justin

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

Quote:
I have the suspicion that the bi-turbo V12 is putting out a significantly greater amount of horsepower than the V8 Kompressor, despite similar ratings. It's hard to compare the two otherwise though. One is turbine smooth and the other still has a hod-rod quality.

Right, Justin. The V12 bi-turbo is so powerful, I heard that some people at AMG aren't happy about it. Maybe one reason why they used it on the new CL 65 AMG.

From a financial point of view, it would make sense to build only turbo charged engines. This could save a lot of money.
There is even a rumor, that the new SLR will have a brandnew V12 bi-turbo charged engine with almost 700 HP but right now, I have no official or even unofficial confirmation on that.
Sounds good though.

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May 7, 2003 9:48:12 PM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: RC

I suspect that

Mercedes limited the output of its V12 turbo for marketing reason? Trying to set a gap between the SLR and CL65?

I can't imagine what it will be like to unleash the full potential of the CL65.

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May 7, 2003 9:48:12 PM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: RC

I suspect that

Mercedes limited the output of its V12 turbo for marketing reason? Trying to set a gap between the SLR and CL65?

I can't imagine what it will be like to unleash the full potential of the CL65.

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Jun 27, 2003 10:20:08 PM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

RC - check out these scanned jpg's from the July Car Mag and give me your opinion!!! mp

here is page one..........

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Jun 27, 2003 10:20:08 PM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

RC - check out these scanned jpg's from the July Car Mag and give me your opinion!!! mp

here is page one..........

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Jun 27, 2003 10:54:20 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: william

Re: I suspect that

Quote:
Mercedes limited the output of its V12 turbo for marketing reason? Trying to set a gap between the SLR and CL65?

I can't imagine what it will be like to unleash the full potential of the CL65.

Well, the V12 is indeed very powerful.
Just have a look at the Maybach.

But the thing is: Mercedes develops the cars up to 250 kph top speed, AMG takes it further. And this is where the difference starts.
The CL 65 AMG is just the beginning, the SL 65 AMG (confirmed!) and S 65 AMG will follow. And yes, the torque is limited to 1000 Nm (instead of possible 1200 Nm), now just imagine how much power the engine is capable of producing.
My personal guess: up to 700 HP should be possible without problems.

Personally I think that with the introduction of the 1200 Nm version of the 7G automatic tranny, AMG will offer a power upgrade for the CL/SL/S 65 AMG. However I think that this power upgrade will be slightly below the SLR's power because I'm sure Mercedes won't accept the AMG models to be more powerful than the Mercedes top of the line model, the SLR. The next two years should be very interesting.

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Jun 27, 2003 10:54:20 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: william

Re: I suspect that

Quote:
Mercedes limited the output of its V12 turbo for marketing reason? Trying to set a gap between the SLR and CL65?

I can't imagine what it will be like to unleash the full potential of the CL65.

Well, the V12 is indeed very powerful.
Just have a look at the Maybach.

But the thing is: Mercedes develops the cars up to 250 kph top speed, AMG takes it further. And this is where the difference starts.
The CL 65 AMG is just the beginning, the SL 65 AMG (confirmed!) and S 65 AMG will follow. And yes, the torque is limited to 1000 Nm (instead of possible 1200 Nm), now just imagine how much power the engine is capable of producing.
My personal guess: up to 700 HP should be possible without problems.

Personally I think that with the introduction of the 1200 Nm version of the 7G automatic tranny, AMG will offer a power upgrade for the CL/SL/S 65 AMG. However I think that this power upgrade will be slightly below the SLR's power because I'm sure Mercedes won't accept the AMG models to be more powerful than the Mercedes top of the line model, the SLR. The next two years should be very interesting.

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Jun 27, 2003 10:58:39 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mbprince

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

Quote:
RC - check out these scanned jpg's from the July Car Mag and give me your opinion!!! mp

here is page one..........

Well, the most recent rumor I heard is that AMG wants to keep the supercharged V8 engines.
Rumors indicate a new supercharged V8 engine generation for 2005 (MY 2006) including 4 valves (instead of 3), maybe direct fuel injection and of course, more power.

Rumors indicate up to 560 HP for the new engine generation, the SL 55 AMG and other top of the line models will benefit from that. Unfortunately it seems that the E55 will be strategically limited to around 520-540 HP.
But as always: rumors should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Jun 27, 2003 10:58:39 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mbprince

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

Quote:
RC - check out these scanned jpg's from the July Car Mag and give me your opinion!!! mp

here is page one..........

Well, the most recent rumor I heard is that AMG wants to keep the supercharged V8 engines.
Rumors indicate a new supercharged V8 engine generation for 2005 (MY 2006) including 4 valves (instead of 3), maybe direct fuel injection and of course, more power.

Rumors indicate up to 560 HP for the new engine generation, the SL 55 AMG and other top of the line models will benefit from that. Unfortunately it seems that the E55 will be strategically limited to around 520-540 HP.
But as always: rumors should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Jun 27, 2003 11:12:20 PM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: RC

talking about maybach

I had a chance to sat in a Maybach Long version as a passenger, The gagets are great, wireless bose headphones, remote control, business class seat and a little gauge to see how fast you are going. Perfect car for Germany Autobahn if you have a driver. The car was so smooth, even a terrible driver can execute a smooth trip. Impressive!!!

The guy also explained an interesting history about the Maybach. Some people may not appreciate the history thought. I think it is a great competition to Rolls Royce.

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Jun 27, 2003 11:12:20 PM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: RC

talking about maybach

I had a chance to sat in a Maybach Long version as a passenger, The gagets are great, wireless bose headphones, remote control, business class seat and a little gauge to see how fast you are going. Perfect car for Germany Autobahn if you have a driver. The car was so smooth, even a terrible driver can execute a smooth trip. Impressive!!!

The guy also explained an interesting history about the Maybach. Some people may not appreciate the history thought. I think it is a great competition to Rolls Royce.

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Jun 28, 2003 12:01:40 AM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: mbprince

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

here is page two of the text.......... had to type it because the jpg was too large.....

"limitations, and these called for a fundemental rethink.'

The upshot is AMG is abandoning the supercharger - and small capacity engines - in favour of a strategy based around big horsepower V8s. The 354bhp supercharged V6 will be discontinued as early as next year when the upgraded C-class (mainly interior tweaks) arrives in February, and the all-new SLK debuts in April. It will be replaced by the normally aspirated 367bhp 5.5-litre V8 that's currently used in the new CLK55.

This will now be the entry level AMG engine - the turbocharged four that will power the top of the range A-class won't carry the AMG moniker. It will be replaced in 2005 with an AMG version of the all-new 32-valve M156 direct injection V8. Depending on whether the final displacement of this engine finishes at 5.3 or 5.5-litres, output is expected to be 370 or 375bhp. This engine will be fitted to AMG C and M-class, as well to CLK and SLK.

The supercharged 5.5-liter V8 currently fitted to the E- and S-class, and the SL and CL is expected to be superceded in '06 by a big bore naturally aspirated V8 displacing 6.3 liters - an iconic number which harks back to the tire-shredding 300SEL 6.3s from the 1960s. As fitted to AMG versions of the E-class, the forthcoming GST crossover and the new four door CLE coupe, this monster motor will deliver 600bhp. An even hotter version slated for the S-class, SL and CL, is said to be good for 650bhp.

At the top end, though, AMG is going for broke with a twin turbo version of the new 6.05-liter V12 (codenamed M275) that's said to be good for 650bhp in 'soft' tune for the S-class and CL coupe, and an awesome 700bhp for the SL courtesy of higher turbo boost.

The 12-cylinder AMG cars will not be listed in official MB sales catalogues. Instead, they will be built to order, with the price determined by individual specification."

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Jun 28, 2003 12:01:40 AM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: mbprince

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

here is page two of the text.......... had to type it because the jpg was too large.....

"limitations, and these called for a fundemental rethink.'

The upshot is AMG is abandoning the supercharger - and small capacity engines - in favour of a strategy based around big horsepower V8s. The 354bhp supercharged V6 will be discontinued as early as next year when the upgraded C-class (mainly interior tweaks) arrives in February, and the all-new SLK debuts in April. It will be replaced by the normally aspirated 367bhp 5.5-litre V8 that's currently used in the new CLK55.

This will now be the entry level AMG engine - the turbocharged four that will power the top of the range A-class won't carry the AMG moniker. It will be replaced in 2005 with an AMG version of the all-new 32-valve M156 direct injection V8. Depending on whether the final displacement of this engine finishes at 5.3 or 5.5-litres, output is expected to be 370 or 375bhp. This engine will be fitted to AMG C and M-class, as well to CLK and SLK.

The supercharged 5.5-liter V8 currently fitted to the E- and S-class, and the SL and CL is expected to be superceded in '06 by a big bore naturally aspirated V8 displacing 6.3 liters - an iconic number which harks back to the tire-shredding 300SEL 6.3s from the 1960s. As fitted to AMG versions of the E-class, the forthcoming GST crossover and the new four door CLE coupe, this monster motor will deliver 600bhp. An even hotter version slated for the S-class, SL and CL, is said to be good for 650bhp.

At the top end, though, AMG is going for broke with a twin turbo version of the new 6.05-liter V12 (codenamed M275) that's said to be good for 650bhp in 'soft' tune for the S-class and CL coupe, and an awesome 700bhp for the SL courtesy of higher turbo boost.

The 12-cylinder AMG cars will not be listed in official MB sales catalogues. Instead, they will be built to order, with the price determined by individual specification."

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Jun 28, 2003 12:12:27 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mbprince

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

I guess this car magazine mixes up some rumors with some facts and some confusions.

The supercharged V8 engines are so successful, I really doubt they'll be abandoned.
And the bi-turbo charged V12 already exists and yes, these cars are built to order.

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Jun 28, 2003 12:12:27 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mbprince

Re: Supercharged AMG engines...soon history?

I guess this car magazine mixes up some rumors with some facts and some confusions.

The supercharged V8 engines are so successful, I really doubt they'll be abandoned.
And the bi-turbo charged V12 already exists and yes, these cars are built to order.

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Jun 28, 2003 12:27:59 AM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: mbprince

Re: 7G

info from same mag on 7G..........

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Jun 28, 2003 12:27:59 AM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: mbprince

Re: 7G

info from same mag on 7G..........

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Jun 28, 2003 1:28:22 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mbprince

Re: 7G

Quote:
info from same mag on 7G..........

Again: mixing up facts with rumors.

There are two versions of the 7G, one for engines up to 700 Nm torque and one up to 1200 Nm (which is still in development as far as I heard).
The 700 Nm 7G would be perfect for the E55 but apparently, there is no 7G on AMG cars for the next model year.
So I have a personal guess: the 7G will be introduced with the rumored new engine generation by 2005.
This would also allow DC to sort out possible problems with the 7G.

I understand your reason for asking but if you always think about what could come next on a car, you'll stay without that car forever because technical specs change all the time.
Why miss the fun?

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Jun 28, 2003 1:28:22 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: mbprince

Re: 7G

Quote:
info from same mag on 7G..........

Again: mixing up facts with rumors.

There are two versions of the 7G, one for engines up to 700 Nm torque and one up to 1200 Nm (which is still in development as far as I heard).
The 700 Nm 7G would be perfect for the E55 but apparently, there is no 7G on AMG cars for the next model year.
So I have a personal guess: the 7G will be introduced with the rumored new engine generation by 2005.
This would also allow DC to sort out possible problems with the 7G.

I understand your reason for asking but if you always think about what could come next on a car, you'll stay without that car forever because technical specs change all the time.
Why miss the fun?

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Jun 28, 2003 3:52:24 AM

RedBaron: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 8, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 7G

My vote is for the supercharged engine. Arguably more driveable for the street and just plain cooler!

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Jun 28, 2003 3:52:24 AM

RedBaron: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 8, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 7G

My vote is for the supercharged engine. Arguably more driveable for the street and just plain cooler!

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Jun 28, 2003 5:56:28 AM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RedBaron

Re: 7G

Quote:
My vote is for the supercharged engine. Arguably more driveable for the street and just plain cooler!

I agree - big block V8s were done in the 60s and 70s. I think it's much more impressive to get alot of hp and torque using a smaller block and supercharger or turbo!

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Jun 28, 2003 5:56:28 AM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RedBaron

Re: 7G

Quote:
My vote is for the supercharged engine. Arguably more driveable for the street and just plain cooler!

I agree - big block V8s were done in the 60s and 70s. I think it's much more impressive to get alot of hp and torque using a smaller block and supercharger or turbo!

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Jun 28, 2003 9:34:29 PM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 7G

"So I have a personal guess: the 7G will be introduced with the rumored new engine generation by 2005."

Christian, are you guessing then (for E55) MY 05 or MY 06 for the new engine and 7G???

Michael

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Jun 28, 2003 9:34:29 PM

mbprince: Junior; Loc: California, USA; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 7G

"So I have a personal guess: the 7G will be introduced with the rumored new engine generation by 2005."

Christian, are you guessing then (for E55) MY 05 or MY 06 for the new engine and 7G???

Michael

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