Crown

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

I’ll repeat. Fourth quarter had slow sales as people anticipated the rebates. Teslas were priced out of the rebate so they lowered the price to match the requirement and got the rebate in addition. Win win. You would need to be blind to not see what was going on but I understand the thinking here.  
Would you go buy a car in December knowing a $7500 rebate was coming?  
The Real question who would buy any other EV that has not had a 20% price cut recently?  
They did not ever have an excess inventory problem. They have the lowest number day’s inventory in the industry. By far. 
Good luck ordering a Tesla in the next few months, they will be selling like hot cakes. Excess inventory my foot. Lol. 
Yes, all cars depreciate but thanks to the Tesla price drop the other EVs are worth 20% less today, same with all other cars. Not because they normally depreciate but because they need to be competitive.  Elon and Tesla can afford the price drop to gain market share. Can the others drop their price?  Can they even make EVs fast enough at the new prices?  Hmmm

 

 

And I will repeat myself again also 

The inventory issue didn't just pop out in December, I have basically been reporting new cars sitting unsold on lots for the last 6 months or so, ever since other competitors had finally ramped up their production to full capacity. Who in their right mind would want to buy a 8-10 year old "new" car when competitors are brand spanking new fresh design? WIthout the auto-kill-driver feature? Or the aim-for-parked-emergency-vehicle feature?

The EV market is growing, but not as quickly as Tesla been losing market share. Tesla really desperately need a refresh of their lineup quickly, both in styling and content, just to catch up, or at least maintain a respectable market share. 

Why do Ford need to offer rebate to move their Mach Es? Or Lightnings? They can't keep any on dealers' lots right now. Rebates only happened when they do year end push for sales numbers or clearing out last model year leftovers. Dealers are charging great ADMs on Mach Es and Lightnings right now still. 

Hyundai also is having problem making enough of the Ioniq 5s/EV6s/GV60s trio, universally accepted as the best EV on the market right now. There is no need to provide any incentive to move them, they practically sell themselves. You ever heard of people paying ADM to BUY A HYUNDAI!?!?! Yup, it is happening for the Ioniq 5.  Before I buy the Mach E, I was looking at the Ioniq 5, it was sold out, and I was offered a spot on the WAITLIST for 5k. Not the actual order, but paying 5k to the dealer just so I can have a chance to move from wait list to placing an actual order. Crazier than trying to buy a Porsche or Ferrari.

 

It will be very fun for me to see again and again how this will turn out. Cheers

And it turns out to be very true. I am not even projecting, I was just reporting what is happening right now. 

Tesla is leading by a mile for cars hitting stationary emergency vehicles.

And you can't walk in and walk out with any EV at any dealerships. 

I can walk into Tesla tomorrow and walk out with a brand spanking new Tesla, can you do the same with any other EV? Without paying ADM? Shall we make a bet and actually do it? What model Tesla you feel like me buying? X? Y? 3? S? You can buy a comparable priced EV before ADM. Think that's fair enough.

--

EIon has serious Iegal issues... 

...how can anyone IegalIy defend such a blatant fraud? 

Just out of curiosity: If Tesla really puts a 25k EUR/USD car on the market (the rumored Model 2), would it have a huge impact on the stock value? Would they really make good money with such a cheap model? I can imagine that such a smaller and cheaper model could be a breakthrough for EVs but I'm not sure yet.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

And another problem for Tesla is that Tesla can't even renew it's current aged lineup, much less bring out a new model, the cybertruck is taking forever, the roadster they presented with all the hype never materialized, etc. They best bet is to stick to what they have which isn't selling bad, they overstimated demand in 2022 but they still sold well.

Carlos from Spain:

And another problem for Tesla is that Tesla can't even renew it's current aged lineup, much less bring out a new model, the cybertruck is taking forever, the roadster they presented with all the hype never materialized, etc. They best bet is to stick to what they have which isn't selling bad, they overstimated demand in 2022 but they still sold well.

The thing is: If Tesla succeeds in putting a Model 2 on the market for 25k EUR/USD and if this car is basically a small Model 3 or Y and has a good performance and range, they could really revolutionize this segment.

Thing is: For 25k, you don't really get any EV in Europe or the US, let alone a nice and performant one.

This could be really a huge breakthrough for EVs and for Tesla.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

But I don't think Tesla can come out with anything better than the competition in that price segment, the range is still going to suck because it can't have the same battery capacity for that price and that reduces the number of potential customers, that is why that price segment is not popular in EVs, and Is hate to think she the build quality and reliability of a 25k Tesla. So it won't be a mass seller and the profit margin would be even smaller than the other models. Unless they're is s breakthrough in battery technology that increases range significantly without increasing the cost, maybe solid-state batteries in 5-10 years 

According to a poster or two, this seasoned auto executive doesn’t understand the brilliance of Tesla.  
 

Kia to avoid 'dangerous' price cuts to protect residual values

Kia UK boss Paul Philpott says Korean brand won't look to match Tesla's £8000 discount strategy

“Most new cars are bought on a PCP or lease, and there are two key components that set what you pay: the upfront price and the residual value. If your residual values are on the slide - as Tesla’s have been - and you then cut your pricing between £5000 [and] £8000, then it's likely to have an impact. The market will decide, but that’s what we would expect.

“So the risk is that you reduce your price but undermine your residual values, and therefore there’s no saving for lease customers. Furthermore, your current lease customers, who likely thought they had some equity built into their terms, may yet come to the end of a lease and find that reduced residuals have undermined that. It will be interesting to see how the fleet buyers respond to it, as I think it presents a complicated situation.

“And then you have to contend with the uproar of the people who bought at the higher price before you made the reduction, which in Tesla’s case is almost 16,000 in the UK.

“Residual values are why we have worked really hard at establishing strong used-car propositions. We spend an awful of time trying to keep them strong, because it feeds the whole system.

“We will watch what happens in the market, but there are actions we would take before we looked to reduce prices, from controlling supply, offering finance support or looking at tactical offerings, all of which would be designed to protect existing owners.”

Kia enjoyed a record-breaking year in the UK last year, topping 100,000 registrations for the first time. Later this year it will add the seven-seat Kia EV9 to its electric line-up, a rival for the Tesla Model X.

RC:

Carlos from Spain:

And another problem for Tesla is that Tesla can't even renew it's current aged lineup, much less bring out a new model, the cybertruck is taking forever, the roadster they presented with all the hype never materialized, etc. They best bet is to stick to what they have which isn't selling bad, they overstimated demand in 2022 but they still sold well.

The thing is: If Tesla succeeds in putting a Model 2 on the market for 25k EUR/USD and if this car is basically a small Model 3 or Y and has a good performance and range, they could really revolutionize this segment.

Thing is: For 25k, you don't really get any EV in Europe or the US, let alone a nice and performant one.

This could be really a huge breakthrough for EVs and for Tesla.

The 'cheap' EV boat have sailed for Tesla.

Right now, there isn't an EV that has MSRP of ~$25kUS. One comes close, The Nissan Leaf. It's at $28k but with $7500 tax credit it became a $20k EV. Leaf is however a mostly city car. 

Hyundai Kona would be the next up, but still around $28kUS after tax credit. This would be the all around EV with range of 400 km.

Chevy Bolt is another, ~$30k after tax credit but the Bolts aren't selling so they get extra buying incentives to bring the price down more. It is however a strictly city car. 

Could Tesla de-content a Model 3 down to that price level? Not anymore. In the beginning of the cycle they could have done one, but Elon keep refusing to sell the promised 'cheap' version. Now it's going to be too expensive to design a new platform for a cheap Tesla. 

Ford did an amazing job bringing the Lightning to market, cheapest one after tax credit is ~$35k, and it goes all the way up to $100k for the top model. Economy of scale at work. It's the buying power of buying parts in volumes of like 2 million pieces a year. That kind of volume will get one a nice discount. 

Tesla has an identity crisis, it is stuck in no man's land in the market segment, but also the most competitive with competitions coming in by the day. While some Teslas has a 6 figure price tag, they don't feel like a 6 figure car and losing out the top end to the true luxury EVs like the Mercedes, Audi and Porsche. Their cost of manufacturing also prevent them from going lower to compete with the Leafs and Konas and eNiros. 

While in that middle segment, their Model 3 is being out-tech-ed by the Korean trio, 800V architecture, plus fresh design. The Model Y is facing serious competition from the Mach E who matches if not exceed the Tesla's range in the real world, while offering a roomier and much much better interior. The VW ID4 and Audi Q4 eTron dual also offers a nice European alternative with European refinement.

It still don't have a truck to compete with Ford and GM, by the time the Cybertruck comes to market, Ford should be readying their next gen Lightning already. 

And then there is the Chinese market.The Chinese are offering some tough competition for Tesla to go against. While Teslas are still selling well in China, with some considering them as a status symbol over the Chinese brands, that sentiment could change any minute. 

Elon is still trying to fit a square peg into a round hole for autonomous driving. He still believe a camera system is good enough. But the whole reason of him taking away radar sensors and refusing to use LiDAR was to lower the cost per car. He might have no choice but to put those back in for their next generation of cars in order to at least try for lvl 3 autonomous driving. Camera images are always going to be 2D, it's missing the depth dimension which is the most important one for piloting a car. Perhaps his reasoning was that since humans only using eyes, why can't a car? Well, humans are born and wired to interpret stereo vision, computers aren't. Computers needed to be programmed and it's only as good as the worse programmer on the team. As good as AI can be right now, they are still at the mercy of the codes they run on.  Why not make things easier for EVERYONE by incorporating distance measurement, instead of just guessing. 

https://insideevs.com/news/631502/estimated-tesla-order-backlog-dec31-2022/

All pending orders from North America are gone. 

Tesla sold like 405k cars in the last quarter, which basically cleared all the back log orders from US and Canada. 

Doug DeMuro: “The 2023 Toyota Prius Is New and Shockingly Gorgeous” 

...it seems there is already competition in the global car market for a potential future $25k TesIa model... 

Video Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC0nTBC-Jvs

Erm...    

“Tesla video promoting self-driving was staged, engineer testifies”

 (17 January 2023)

(Reuters) - A 2016 video that Tesla used to promote its self-driving technology was staged to show capabilities like stopping at a red light and accelerating at a green light that the system did not have, according to testimony by a senior engineer.

The video, which remains archived on Tesla’s website, was released in October 2016 and promoted on Twitter by Chief Executive Elon Musk as evidence that “Tesla drives itself.” 

But the Model X was not driving itself with technology Tesla had deployed, Ashok Elluswamy, director of Autopilot software at Tesla, said in the transcript of a July deposition taken as evidence in a lawsuit against Tesla for a 2018 fatal crash involving a former Apple engineer.

The previously unreported testimony by Elluswamy represents the first time a Tesla employee has confirmed and detailed how the video was produced.

The video carries a tagline saying: “The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.” 

Elluswamy said Tesla’s Autopilot team set out to engineer and record a “demonstration of the system’s capabilities” at the request of Musk.

Elluswamy, Musk and Tesla did not respond to a request for comment. However, the company has warned drivers that they must keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicles while using Autopilot. 

The Tesla technology is designed to assist with steering, braking, speed and lane changes but its features “do not make the vehicle autonomous,” the company says on its website. 

To create the video, the Tesla used 3D mapping on a predetermined route from a house in Menlo Park, California, to Tesla’s then-headquarters in Palo Alto, he said. 

Drivers intervened to take control in test runs, he said. When trying to show the Model X could park itself with no driver, a test car crashed into a fence in Tesla’s parking lot, he said.

“The intent of the video was not to accurately portray what was available for customers in 2016. It was to portray what was possible to build into the system,” Elluswamy said, according to a transcript of his testimony seen by Reuters.

When Tesla released the video, Musk tweeted, “Tesla drives itself (no human input at all) thru urban streets to highway to streets, then finds a parking spot.”

Tesla faces lawsuits and regulatory scrutiny over its driver assistance systems. 

The U.S. Department of Justice began a criminal investigation into Tesla’s claims that its electric vehicles can drive themselves in 2021, after a number of crashes, some of them fatal, involving Autopilot, Reuters has reported.

The New York Times reported in 2021 that Tesla engineers had created the 2016 video to promote Autopilot without disclosing that the route had been mapped in advance or that a car had crashed in trying to complete the shoot, citing anonymous sources.

When asked if the 2016 video showed the performance of the Tesla Autopilot system available in a production car at the time, Elluswamy said, "It does not." 

Elluswamy was deposed in a lawsuit against Tesla over a 2018 crash in Mountain View, California, that killed Apple engineer Walter Huang. 

Andrew McDevitt, the lawyer who represents Huang’s wife and who questioned Elluswamy’s in July, told Reuters it was “obviously misleading to feature that video without any disclaimer or asterisk.” 

The National Transportation Safety Board concluded in 2020 that Huang’s fatal crash was likely caused by his distraction and the limitations of Autopilot. It said Tesla’s “ineffective monitoring of driver engagement” had contributed to the crash.

Elluswamy said drivers could “fool the system,” making a Tesla system believe that they were paying attention based on feedback from the steering wheel when they were not. But he said he saw no safety issue with Autopilot if drivers were paying attention.

[Source: Reuters]

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Erm...    

“Tesla video promoting self-driving was staged, engineer testifies”

 (17 January 2023)

(Reuters) - A 2016 video that Tesla used to promote its self-driving technology was staged to show capabilities like stopping at a red light and accelerating at a green light that the system did not have, according to testimony by a senior engineer.

The video, which remains archived on Tesla’s website, was released in October 2016 and promoted on Twitter by Chief Executive Elon Musk as evidence that “Tesla drives itself.” 

But the Model X was not driving itself with technology Tesla had deployed, Ashok Elluswamy, director of Autopilot software at Tesla, said in the transcript of a July deposition taken as evidence in a lawsuit against Tesla for a 2018 fatal crash involving a former Apple engineer.

The previously unreported testimony by Elluswamy represents the first time a Tesla employee has confirmed and detailed how the video was produced.

The video carries a tagline saying: “The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself.” 

Elluswamy said Tesla’s Autopilot team set out to engineer and record a “demonstration of the system’s capabilities” at the request of Musk.

Elluswamy, Musk and Tesla did not respond to a request for comment. However, the company has warned drivers that they must keep their hands on the wheel and maintain control of their vehicles while using Autopilot. 

The Tesla technology is designed to assist with steering, braking, speed and lane changes but its features “do not make the vehicle autonomous,” the company says on its website. 

To create the video, the Tesla used 3D mapping on a predetermined route from a house in Menlo Park, California, to Tesla’s then-headquarters in Palo Alto, he said. 

Drivers intervened to take control in test runs, he said. When trying to show the Model X could park itself with no driver, a test car crashed into a fence in Tesla’s parking lot, he said.

“The intent of the video was not to accurately portray what was available for customers in 2016. It was to portray what was possible to build into the system,” Elluswamy said, according to a transcript of his testimony seen by Reuters.

When Tesla released the video, Musk tweeted, “Tesla drives itself (no human input at all) thru urban streets to highway to streets, then finds a parking spot.”

Tesla faces lawsuits and regulatory scrutiny over its driver assistance systems. 

The U.S. Department of Justice began a criminal investigation into Tesla’s claims that its electric vehicles can drive themselves in 2021, after a number of crashes, some of them fatal, involving Autopilot, Reuters has reported.

The New York Times reported in 2021 that Tesla engineers had created the 2016 video to promote Autopilot without disclosing that the route had been mapped in advance or that a car had crashed in trying to complete the shoot, citing anonymous sources.

When asked if the 2016 video showed the performance of the Tesla Autopilot system available in a production car at the time, Elluswamy said, "It does not." 

Elluswamy was deposed in a lawsuit against Tesla over a 2018 crash in Mountain View, California, that killed Apple engineer Walter Huang. 

Andrew McDevitt, the lawyer who represents Huang’s wife and who questioned Elluswamy’s in July, told Reuters it was “obviously misleading to feature that video without any disclaimer or asterisk.” 

The National Transportation Safety Board concluded in 2020 that Huang’s fatal crash was likely caused by his distraction and the limitations of Autopilot. It said Tesla’s “ineffective monitoring of driver engagement” had contributed to the crash.

Elluswamy said drivers could “fool the system,” making a Tesla system believe that they were paying attention based on feedback from the steering wheel when they were not. But he said he saw no safety issue with Autopilot if drivers were paying attention.

[Source: Reuters]

When Tesla released the video, Musk tweeted, “Tesla drives itself (no human input at all) thru urban streets to highway to streets, then finds a parking spot.”

The guy is a pathological liar...

All to prop up stock price, nothing more.

RC:

Just out of curiosity: If Tesla really puts a 25k EUR/USD car on the market (the rumored Model 2), would it have a huge impact on the stock value? Would they really make good money with such a cheap model? I can imagine that such a smaller and cheaper model could be a breakthrough for EVs but I'm not sure yet.

Stock has been doing well last few days. 
Breakthrough Is old news. 

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

I’ll repeat. Fourth quarter had slow sales as people anticipated the rebates. Teslas were priced out of the rebate so they lowered the price to match the requirement and got the rebate in addition. Win win. You would need to be blind to not see what was going on but I understand the thinking here.  
Would you go buy a car in December knowing a $7500 rebate was coming?  
The Real question who would buy any other EV that has not had a 20% price cut recently?  
They did not ever have an excess inventory problem. They have the lowest number day’s inventory in the industry. By far. 
Good luck ordering a Tesla in the next few months, they will be selling like hot cakes. Excess inventory my foot. Lol. 
Yes, all cars depreciate but thanks to the Tesla price drop the other EVs are worth 20% less today, same with all other cars. Not because they normally depreciate but because they need to be competitive.  Elon and Tesla can afford the price drop to gain market share. Can the others drop their price?  Can they even make EVs fast enough at the new prices?  Hmmm

 

 

And I will repeat myself again also 

The inventory issue didn't just pop out in December, I have basically been reporting new cars sitting unsold on lots for the last 6 months or so, ever since other competitors had finally ramped up their production to full capacity. Who in their right mind would want to buy a 8-10 year old "new" car when competitors are brand spanking new fresh design? WIthout the auto-kill-driver feature? Or the aim-for-parked-emergency-vehicle feature?

The EV market is growing, but not as quickly as Tesla been losing market share. Tesla really desperately need a refresh of their lineup quickly, both in styling and content, just to catch up, or at least maintain a respectable market share. 

Why do Ford need to offer rebate to move their Mach Es? Or Lightnings? They can't keep any on dealers' lots right now. Rebates only happened when they do year end push for sales numbers or clearing out last model year leftovers. Dealers are charging great ADMs on Mach Es and Lightnings right now still. 

Hyundai also is having problem making enough of the Ioniq 5s/EV6s/GV60s trio, universally accepted as the best EV on the market right now. There is no need to provide any incentive to move them, they practically sell themselves. You ever heard of people paying ADM to BUY A HYUNDAI!?!?! Yup, it is happening for the Ioniq 5.  Before I buy the Mach E, I was looking at the Ioniq 5, it was sold out, and I was offered a spot on the WAITLIST for 5k. Not the actual order, but paying 5k to the dealer just so I can have a chance to move from wait list to placing an actual order. Crazier than trying to buy a Porsche or Ferrari.

 

It will be very fun for me to see again and again how this will turn out. Cheers

 

And it turns out to be very true. I am not even projecting, I was just reporting what is happening right now. 

Tesla is leading by a mile for cars hitting stationary emergency vehicles.

And you can't walk in and walk out with any EV at any dealerships. 

I can walk into Tesla tomorrow and walk out with a brand spanking new Tesla, can you do the same with any other EV? Without paying ADM? Shall we make a bet and actually do it? What model Tesla you feel like me buying? X? Y? 3? S? You can buy a comparable priced EV before ADM. Think that's fair enough.

 

 

--

 

 

 

 

 Perhaps it is because Tesla will never charge ADM.  They don’t do that. Ever imagine the EV shortage you seem to think exists everywhere but Tesla is due to them not making enough because they can’t?  Two sides to each story. And if you don’t think the price and supply of Teslas is driving down all prices …. Good luck to the competition 

Whoopsy:

All to prop up stock price, nothing more.

 

Wishful thinking to dream of 2016. Seven years later the tech has come a long way - showing that not only has huge progress been made but it is far from some ‘lie’. I do understand why these old stories and a five year old lawsuit about an even more outdated stock price give you comfort.  There is far more FUD and Twitter politics around the price going down then it going up.  

Carlos from Spain:

And another problem for Tesla is that Tesla can't even renew it's current aged lineup, much less bring out a new model, the cybertruck is taking forever, the roadster they presented with all the hype never materialized, etc. They best bet is to stick to what they have which isn't selling bad, they overstimated demand in 2022 but they still sold well.

This by design. They could change shapes and interiors every two years and make the older versions look dated and make customers buy new over and over again to stay looking ‘good’ but they have built a brand which focuses on getting new cars into peoples hands while keeping the entire existing fleet updated with all the new functionality and features with OTA updates. I like that approach. It has nothing to do all with not being able to afford new styling. 
How can you not overestimate demand when with months to go in a year the government announces $7500 credits the next year.  They also purposely structured the credits forcing Tesla to cut prices to meet the credits.  Watch and see which makers now have oversupply issues. 

Yeah but no, the Model X for example is complete outdated, no OTA is fixing that. Also the long delays in bringing out promised models or sometimes not even bringing them out altogether when you took deposits for them is not by design, just like it's not by design taking deposits for FSD and never delivering in spite of promising that "next year" will be ready for nine years in a row... just be real Leawood.

Think about the people who paid the $250,000 deposit for the mythical Tesla Roadster 2.0 a few years ago.  

CGX car nut:

Think about the people who paid the $250,000 deposit for the mythical Tesla Roadster 2.0 a few years ago.  

yeah, 6 year ago! lol 

That $250k should be worth about $300k+ after 6 years of inflation..............

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

All to prop up stock price, nothing more.

 

Wishful thinking to dream of 2016. Seven years later the tech has come a long way - showing that not only has huge progress been made but it is far from some ‘lie’. I do understand why these old stories and a five year old lawsuit about an even more outdated stock price give you comfort.  There is far more FUD and Twitter politics around the price going down then it going up.  

Seven years later the onboard computer still prefer hitting stationary emergency vehicles, that's some kind of improvement!! NOT!!

One would have thought by now, that 'smart' AI has seen MILLIONS of emergency vehicle images and figured out that's something to avoid, nope!.

But nah, Elon would prefer to focus 7 sears of progress to program in a better sounding fart sound. 

All the while competitors when from zero knowledge to advance driver monitoring systems that's not intrusive and can make sure the driver is alert and attentive while supervising the advance cruise control system. 

I am sure the next OTA update will magically install infrared eye tracking hardware in the car to better monitor the driver's attentiveness. OTA fixes everything, right? 

I said it before: The competition gets stronger and stronger and Tesla needs a game changer of some sorts. Their software advantage has shrunk to 2 years maybe (it was 5 years a short while ago), the competition is making fast advancements. A Tesla model 2 could be a game changer, price-wise and new tech and improved designs could also help Tesla. 

I was thinking about getting the Tesla S Plaid as a daily driver but decided to get a M3 CS instead. Why get an EV now when I will be basically forced to drive one in a couple of years? I try to enjoy ICE cars as long as possible.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

All to prop up stock price, nothing more.

 

Wishful thinking to dream of 2016. Seven years later the tech has come a long way - showing that not only has huge progress been made but it is far from some ‘lie’. I do understand why these old stories and a five year old lawsuit about an even more outdated stock price give you comfort.  There is far more FUD and Twitter politics around the price going down then it going up.  

 

Seven years later the onboard computer still prefer hitting stationary emergency vehicles, that's some kind of improvement!! NOT!!

One would have thought by now, that 'smart' AI has seen MILLIONS of emergency vehicle images and figured out that's something to avoid, nope!.

But nah, Elon would prefer to focus 7 sears of progress to program in a better sounding fart sound. 

All the while competitors when from zero knowledge to advance driver monitoring systems that's not intrusive and can make sure the driver is alert and attentive while supervising the advance cruise control system. 

I am sure the next OTA update will magically install infrared eye tracking hardware in the car to better monitor the driver's attentiveness. OTA fixes everything, right? 

 

Actually they added driver monitoring using the interior camera a long time ago via an over the air update.  They also check to make certain you don’t place a weight on the steering wheel to simulate a hand.  They tend to cover all bases if possible. 
In terms of running into objects - the Tesla is far less likely than any other car to be involved in an injury accident.   Not certain why you would ever recommend against this car’s safety unless you know of a safer car. Do share.  I let your comments about it running into objects go because it is so way off base.  It actually does your friends here a disservice to imply the car is not safe and that other cars offer more protection. They don’t necessarily do that. 

Most customers want to know the value of the product they are  buying.

The principle applies to all products you buy and keep : watches, house, cars, ...

You're just not going to buy a 7K Omega if the risk exist that it will be sold the next day for 5K.

It's the same problem with rebates. The bigger the rebates are, the less valuable the product is. Rebates make the product you sell accessible to more customers, but the one who buys don't get more value as the resale price goes down as well. 

So what Tesla is doing is just non sense to me. It cheapens and hurts their products so much. What's the value of a tesla in the end ? No one really knows. So who's going to buy their products ? 50K to 70k is a lot of money even if you have the means. The rich people are the ones who are more likely to look at this, as they are the ones who understand the importance of value the most.

Hurting existing customers in the prospect of having new ones is a silly move IMO. The existing customers are not going to get fooled twice. Some will take the risk, but how many are lost in the process ?

amazon:

Most customers want to know the value of the product they are  buying.

The principle applies to all products you buy and keep : watches, house, cars, ...

You're just not going to buy a 7K Omega if the risk exist that it will be sold the next day for 5K.

It's the same problem with rebates. The bigger the rebates are, the less valuable the product is. Rebates make the product you sell accessible to more customers, but the one who buys don't get more value as the resale price goes down as well. 

So what Tesla is doing is just non sense to me. It cheapens and hurts their products so much. What's the value of a tesla in the end ? No one really knows. So who's going to buy their products ? 50K to 70k is a lot of money even if you have the means. The rich people are the ones who are more likely to look at this, as they are the ones who understand the importance of value the most.

Hurting existing customers in the prospect of having new ones is a silly move IMO. The existing customers are not going to get fooled twice. Some will take the risk, but how many are lost in the process ?

Agreed. This is why I said I wouldn't buy an EV right now.

Just imagine this scenario: You buy a BMW iX M60 for 150k EUR now.

One year later, you get the same car with a new tech battery which stores double the capacity and/or charges in half of the time. What happens with the value of the "old" car? I think it would be disastrous.

Scenarios like this one will happen at a certain point it time, also regarding weight: At some point, battery weight will drop substantially because of new tech. Then what? Would someone still buy basically the same (used) car if it weights 300 kg more than the new one? Used car prices would be hammered.

Right now is, in my opinion, not the time to buy EVs. Too risky. 

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

RC:

amazon:

Most customers want to know the value of the product they are  buying.

The principle applies to all products you buy and keep : watches, house, cars, ...

You're just not going to buy a 7K Omega if the risk exist that it will be sold the next day for 5K.

It's the same problem with rebates. The bigger the rebates are, the less valuable the product is. Rebates make the product you sell accessible to more customers, but the one who buys don't get more value as the resale price goes down as well. 

So what Tesla is doing is just non sense to me. It cheapens and hurts their products so much. What's the value of a tesla in the end ? No one really knows. So who's going to buy their products ? 50K to 70k is a lot of money even if you have the means. The rich people are the ones who are more likely to look at this, as they are the ones who understand the importance of value the most.

Hurting existing customers in the prospect of having new ones is a silly move IMO. The existing customers are not going to get fooled twice. Some will take the risk, but how many are lost in the process ?

Agreed. This is why I said I wouldn't buy an EV right now.

Just imagine this scenario: You buy a BMW iX M60 for 150k EUR now.

One year later, you get the same car with a new tech battery which stores double the capacity and/or charges in half of the time. What happens with the value of the "old" car? I think it would be disastrous.

Scenarios like this one will happen at a certain point it time, also regarding weight: At some point, battery weight will drop substantially because of new tech. Then what? Would someone still buy basically the same (used) car if it weights 300 kg more than the new one? Used car prices would be hammered.

Right now is, in my opinion, not the time to buy EVs. Too risky. 

 

Indeed. That's one problem and Elon Musk is adding to it.

I also wonder what will be the effect on other EV's. If you are cross shopping an I4 and model 3 for instance, what exactly justifies such a price difference now between the 2 ?

10k more for the BMW was something you could justify, but now it's more like 20K. it's a bit of a problem. 

But I don't believe other manufacturers are going to follow. If that's the case, where is Tesla going with this ?

Tesla cannot expect to steel all the sales from VW and BMW. In the long run, the price cut is going to hurt its profitability real bad. Then Tesla will have to raise its prices again, but that's way more difficult to do than lower prices.

And then what ? Tesla will be in the exact same position as today. 

I would no be surprised if Tesla end-up like Nokia or Blackberry. Great product at first, and ahead of the competition for a while... and then boom. No one buys another Nokia 3310 after having lived with one during 4 years. 

I think you all totally miss the plot here - 

1)  Tesla prices increased the last two years like everyone else’s. Their reduction brings prices back down to where they were when I bought my car.  They are doing just fine as their costs have only dropped as their volume has doubled since then. 
2) At any given time everyone is paying the same price unlike every other brand. People who ordered prior to the price cut will get the reduction when picking up their cars.  Unhappy would be if their car broke down and warranty repairs were slow or difficult.  To the contrary Tesla owners keep getting new features and functionality including safety improvements.  I give Elon credit for cutting prices in the fourth quarter to keep those customers happy. 
3) And here is the big one - government incentives, not just in the US, were structured to bypass Tesla and favor the competition. With the ability to return to previous prices and be eligible for the incentives what would you have them do?  Are they supposed to be the only make not eligible for incentives when they have been not eligible for years now in the US and sit back?  Is not part of the incentive for automakers to make vehicles which qualify?  Think about it. Elections matter. Thank your elected clowns and their inability to see consequences. 
 

This is not a good time to buy any car other than a Tesla.  Overall customers of Tesla are still the happiest of the bunch. 
Price pressure on the others just as Tesla gets the factories up to speed is the perfect storm. 
 

I have always believed in the inherent qualities of my EV and hated governments getting involved in promoting what is already a fine choice. It always causes grief to tinker with free markets. Tesla was to be royally screwed - it does not look like it will work out as planned.  Happy to see it. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4ZcxeRq2Io

Testimony: Musk directed engineers to make falsified video of Autopilot capabilities.

  https://www.thedrive.com/news/elon-musk-personally-oversaw-staged-tesla-autopilot-video-report