Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Rear seats vs better balance - Page1

May 25, 2005 12:00:42 PM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004

Rear seats vs better balance

Steve Cropley, a well respected journo who works for Autocar finds 911's front end "intrusive... almost annoying" and wonders ''how much longer will 911 buyers live with a fault that grows more intrusive with time and keep paying for a couple of occasional rear seats.''

Apart from classic babbling, would you sacrifice rear seats for a better weight distribution (engine mass towards the centre) or not?

I rarely make use of rear seats and i am wondering if Porsche is a "victim" of it's own history...

What do you think guys?

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May 25, 2005 12:07:35 PM

cartouche: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 399, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 3, 2005; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

The rear seats are one of the reasons I bought the 911
The history (from which I would be a victim...) is another reason
The well respected journos are noway a reason not to buy it...
That said, it's true the front end seems light...

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May 25, 2005 12:09:38 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14173, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Even if I don't use often the back seats ( now in my AUdi TT) I do like to feel the space behind me. Sometimes I can put my children in , which allows me to still have a sports car ( and nor a family wagon) as my main car. And I do use the seat to put stuff.

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May 25, 2005 12:12:27 PM

Shaun: Newbie; Loc: Tarragona, Spain; Posts: 16, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2005; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

The 911 still sell's like hot cakes!
A victim of it's own history!

I like my 911 as it is. Sure, there is always going to be something that isn't going to satisfy everyone (electronic gadgets, extra weight stuff etc.)but the they still sell. I prefer to form my own opinions and not be led by auto journalists who almost always would change the way 911 is. I don't find the 911's front intrusive or annoying - only my opinion

.

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May 25, 2005 12:19:42 PM

Holminator: Veteran; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 1041, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 28, 2004; Reply to: Shaun

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Mmmm, hot cakes!

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May 25, 2005 12:35:52 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Depends what you mean by getting rid of rear seats.
Literally? Which would only gain you about 10 kgs IMO so no point, or going from rear engine to mid engine concept.
Get a Cayman

Seriously, the 911 is not really a rear engine car anymore since the 996.
The engine now sits ON the rear axle as opposed to behind it like the air cooled model.
I think weight distribution of the Carrera is something like front/ rear 38/62.
As a comparaison, I believe it is 40/60 in the V8 Ferrari (because of the additional two cylinders that also sit on the rear axle).
Yes front end is light at speed (a bit less so in the 4Wd models bc weight is added in the front) but mostly in straight line.
FWIW, the 911 can be driven just as the Boxster or 360/430 (as in: slow in, fast out), it just has a bit more polar moment that's all.
Nothing to brag about. Certainly worth the added room in the back if you ask me.
Cropley is a good journalist, but he is just A journalist and no offense to him or any other journalist, but these guys write a couple of pages on a car they've driven for three hours, please... Let's be serious.
Cropley doens't own a 911 which is why you should take those guy's comments with perspective.
I value much more the long term test (Peter Robinson kept a 996 C2 for a year and wrote a regular column, now THAT's valuable).
EVO mag purchased a 997 C2S and writes about is every month. They also own a Murci, an F550, etc.
It is extremely hard to be objective about a car when you've driven hard for half a day maximum IMHO.

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May 25, 2005 1:08:01 PM

Malmsteen: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 493, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

i guess the rear space can get your some wild sex experience : P

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May 25, 2005 1:28:36 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Malmsteen

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

My rear seats will be used for stuff. If the car didn't have them no way would I buy it with the amount of trunk space that remains.

A road car has different characteristics from a track car, both involve compromises.

Maybe the 911 is a great road car just the way it is: combination of performance and practicality.

All midengine units are ridiculous for trunk space.

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May 25, 2005 1:30:04 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21151, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Malmsteen

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Fanch sais it all.
In the 60's comments like those were amusing and with some basis at the beginning, 40yrs later, after decades of evolution and cars like the GT3RS prove what the 911 platfrom is able to do in terms of handling vs its competition with its front end, its just mediocre journalism or sensationalism. Sad.

Sorry to be this tough, but I had a 996 with sport suspension and AWD with over 100,000km before I truned it in, and it only took me 600km on the new 997S to be able to see and appreciate the further improved of the front end and the cofidence and control it inspires coming into the corners...

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May 25, 2005 1:31:55 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

The Mrs stated if its got rear seats for the boy you can have it..

I said of course " shear luxury "..

throt.

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May 25, 2005 1:35:55 PM

rss996: Junior; Loc: Calif; Posts: 84, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: throt

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

another [censored] journalist. I use the back seats all the time for my kids and they love it.

Why are there so many people who slam the 911 so much...over one thing or another?

Morons.........

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May 25, 2005 1:37:42 PM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: Futch

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
Fanch said:
Depends what you mean by getting rid of rear seats.
Literally? Which would only gain you about 10 kgs IMO so no point, or going from rear engine to mid engine concept.

Fanch, i mean literally- it's not about the weight, it's about better balance.

On the other side rear end packaging have some obvious pros. Low driving position, no engine bulkhead pressing from behind, no big centre console or transmission tunnel (front engined cars).

During car launches I have met mr Cropley, mr Peter Robinson and several others journalist fron British magazines (Car, Top Gear, Autocar) and some of them are Porsche lovers AND owners (Goodwin, Harris).

Almost everyone of them adore Porsches and i know very well that they don't just drive them for three hours. Press cars are available for much longer periods of time, any magazine has the chance to drive them again and again, test them on tracks and comparison tests.

I' m doing the same job (btw, the best in the world) and drive many different cars all year long.
And i think that it's very useful cause you have a variety of standards driving all these cars.

Ferrari Modena does have better front bite and it's more eager during turn in- Porsche has better traction durnig exit. No one is perfect.

They are both great cars but i think that if there were no rear seats and engine moved a little forward, Porsche would be even better on THAT point.

And i dont' like Cayman...

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May 25, 2005 2:04:41 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21151, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
zoltan said:
They are both great cars but i think that if there were no rear seats and engine moved a little forward, Porsche would be even better on THAT point.

And i dont' like Cayman...

But then it wouldn't be a 911 anymore, it would be a Cayman with a 911's looks on the outside.

A 911 can only be a rear engined platform with all its pro's and con's, and given its 40yrs of unchallenged success both on the track and on the streets, its more pro's than con's for many.

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May 25, 2005 2:19:54 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
Almost everyone of them adore Porsches and i know very well that they don't just drive them for three hours. Press cars are available for much longer periods of time, any magazine has the chance to drive them again and again, test them on tracks and comparison tests.

My bad, I didn't know that, you're right actually, I do remember comparo tests where they take, say three cars, to France or else and drive the hell our of them.
But it's still not as good as a review from an owner, or no, hang on, it's not better, it's different.
One should be able to get some perspective on press articles.
It's like all these articles on 360 vs 996 Turbo and all the future ones on 430 vs 997 Turbo.
Sure, it's exciting, sure we'll all read them, but we all know that these two cars are very different in character.

Quote:
Ferrari Modena does have better front bite and it's more eager during turn in- Porsche has better traction durnig exit. No one is perfect.

Absolutely. One is faster getting into a corner, the other one is faster getting out.
Careful though, mid engined cars are much trickier to drive on the limit, it is difficult to "feel" what the car tells you, and that goes for the Boxster too.
A 911 with its higher polar moment of inertia, you can instantly feel what the car is doing and apply counter steer more progressively.
I experienced the same with a Maserati Gransport the other day under the rain on a track, same as the 911 but the weight majority is in the front this time and it's very easy to slide that car, well, in the wet at least!

Quote:
They are both great cars but i think that if there were no rear seats and engine moved a little forward, Porsche would be even better on THAT point.

Yes and no. it is a Caymen then. we'll see in the future.
For me a 911 is two things:
Rear engine (in the concept, as I wrote before, it's not really rear engined anymore)
Flat 6.

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May 25, 2005 3:25:34 PM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Quote:
zoltan said:
They are both great cars but i think that if there were no rear seats and engine moved a little forward, Porsche would be even better on THAT point.

And i dont' like Cayman...

But then it wouldn't be a 911 anymore, it would be a Cayman with a 911's looks on the outside.

A 911 can only be a rear engined platform with all its pro's and con's, and given its 40yrs of unchallenged success both on the track and on the streets, its more pro's than con's for many.

The initial question (rear seats vs balance) is pure fantasy. Porsche wouldn't touch it's own myth. We all know that.
And if i remember well (as Mr head of development have mentiomed) the packaging won't change.

But this doesn't stop us from questioning about the benefits of such scenario.

May be in ten years time when subframes and ride quality will be from another planet, Porsche will have to think something little different.

But soemtimes

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May 25, 2005 3:53:43 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Gnil

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
gnil said:
Even if I don't use often the back seats - I do like to feel the space behind me. Sometimes I can put my children in , which allows me to still have a sports car ( and nor a family wagon) as my main car. And I do use the seat to put stuff.

Exactly - you raise very good points. Some people don't like to feel boxed in to a cramped space in a 2 seater so the 2+2 layout helps.

And, as you rightly say, if the car is your only car then room for kids/bags is needed plus it's often a good way of justifying a car like this to 'she who must be obeyed' (in the words of Rumpole of the Bailey)

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May 25, 2005 4:01:16 PM

PS CA: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: zoltan

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

The rear seats have always been a plus for me. I would not have been able to get my first 993 if it did not have rear seats. On occassion I would need to pick up the kids from school and had to have a rear seat. Now that the kids are older I no longer have that need, but I still use the seats (seating area). On my month old 997S I have had someone in the rear seat on two occassions. I have also used the area to carry items that would not fit in the trunk.

Phil

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May 25, 2005 6:52:49 PM

Fred 993C4S: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 86, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 22, 2004; Reply to: PS CA

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Same here, I currently have a Lotus Elise but i'm going back to 911s because of the rear seats. I love my Elise but lately I find myself driving one of our other vehicles because I often need to take my daughter to school, I don't want to be driving an SUV everyday so the 997 will be perfect to satisfy both my needs and wants. What other car can you find that has 911 performance and looks and is a 2+2?

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May 25, 2005 8:30:08 PM

beltar: Veteran; Loc: belgium , Belgium; Posts: 1232, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: Fred 993C4S

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

What are we supposed to do with this guys in the rear?

when we won't have any rear seats anymore , we can't share the feeling of porschedriving anymore... A disaster for the next generation

Taking my youngest and his friend to francorchamps this weekend (+/-650km in the backseats) didn't make them boared.So backseats are useful sometimes...

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May 25, 2005 8:40:47 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: beltar

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
beltar said:
What are we supposed to do with this guys in the rear? when we won't have any rear seats anymore , we can't share the feeling of porschedriving anymore... A disaster for the next generation

GREAT POINT Beltar! The cute photo illustrates it well. I remember seeing those seats when I was about twelve years old and thought they (Porsches, Triumphs and Jags) were so cool!!! Those backseats are just fine the way they are.

Besides you can get a grown man in there but not very comfortable, but better than making him walk if there're no cabs.

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May 25, 2005 8:46:12 PM

beltar: Veteran; Loc: belgium , Belgium; Posts: 1232, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

The whole day they were pushing me to activate the sports button and to rev above 5500revs when the helmholtz resonator makes the engine produce his heavenly sound...
They didn't have to ask twice...

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May 25, 2005 9:18:22 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: beltar

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
beltar said:
What are we supposed to do with this guys in the rear? when we won't have any rear seats anymore , we can't share the feeling of porschedriving anymore... A disaster for the next generation
Taking my youngest and his friend to francorchamps this weekend (+/-650km in the backseats) didn't make them boared.So backseats are useful sometimes...

And it looks like the guy in front of you has someone in the back as well........... COOL PIC.

The back seats are a very big reason I went with my TT and now the 997. Can't take my 5 or 3 year old with me in my 2 Seater sports car which generally means I can't go for a ride with my wife either. Now everyone can ENJOY !

Nothing else out there imo that offers such a complete package. For me the rear seats are a big part of the package even if they are small.

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May 26, 2005 9:39:41 AM

BC: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Cape Town , South Africa; Posts: 2586, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

i cant agree more with Stradale. the rear seats are part of the 911 experience. IMO it just wont be a 911 without them.... they are one of the reasons im getting a 911 instead of a boxster or waiting for a cayman etc.

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May 26, 2005 9:58:31 AM

Coffee: Junior; Loc: Maryland, USA; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 15, 2005; Reply to: BC

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

I think the answer to the weight distribution thing is relocate the back seats to the front...alla rumble. Dodge has that stow and go setup in their vans. That would work. If more leg room is needed, just stick em through the vents in the bumper. That was easy!

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May 26, 2005 12:23:52 PM

MrBonus: Junior; Loc: Delaware; Posts: 97, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 4, 2004; Reply to: throt

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Where would I put my golf clubs?

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May 26, 2005 6:25:37 PM

Leong: Co-Pilot; Loc: Auckland, NZ; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
STRADALE said:
The back seats are a very big reason I went with my TT and now the 997. Can't take my 5 or 3 year old with me in my 2 Seater sports car which generally means I can't go for a ride with my wife either. Now everyone can ENJOY !

Exactly my situation, I'd still be driving a 4 door sedan if it weren't for the rear seats

And man, now that I know what it's like..., that would really suck

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May 26, 2005 7:03:12 PM

beltar: Veteran; Loc: belgium , Belgium; Posts: 1232, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: Leong

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
Leong said:
Quote:
STRADALE said:
The back seats are a very big reason I went with my TT and now the 997. Can't take my 5 or 3 year old with me in my 2 Seater sports car which generally means I can't go for a ride with my wife either. Now everyone can ENJOY !

Exactly my situation, I'd still be driving a 4 door sedan if it weren't for the rear seats

And man, now that I know what it's like..., that would really suck

the same fot me too, wasn't it a cabriolet with the rear seats : it was NO porsche at all...

Now everybody's happy: my wife because she likes sunbedding..
my son off 11Y because he can go with us on porsche-excursions...
Me because i have a great machine to drive and corner with..
And my eldest (20Y) because there is no place for him and so he can take the family car for a trip with his girlfriend...
Porsche makes the whole family happy

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May 26, 2005 7:29:12 PM

zoltan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Athens , Greece; Posts: 275, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2004; Reply to: beltar

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

All right, i gotta it. You prefer rear seats.

Or may be i 'm not so fertile...

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May 26, 2005 7:35:29 PM

Mike S: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Somewhere , Taiwan; Posts: 7720, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

I can't say that I've used my rear seats that much, but it's still nice that they are there "INCASE" you need them

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Sorry to be this tough, but I had a 996 with sport suspension and AWD with over 100,000km before I truned it in, and it only took me 600km on the new 997S to be able to see and appreciate the further improved of the front end and the cofidence and control it inspires coming into the corners...

yikes, over 100k mileage!! Did you visit the Autobahn frequently by any chance?

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May 26, 2005 8:12:48 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: Rear seats vs better balance

Quote:
STRADALE said:

The back seats are a very big reason I went with my TT ... Can't take my 5 or 3 year old with me in my 2 Seater sports car which generally means I can't go for a ride with my wife either. Now everyone can ENJOY !

Nothing else out there imo that offers such a complete package. For me the rear seats are a big part of the package even if they are small.

Same here - they LOVE riding in the Turbo .Kids fit easily until the adolescent growth spurt .
My Porsche salesguy asked me why I haven't looked at Ferraris... my reply was that it will have to wait until the Kindergartener is pushing 12 years old. I've had several two seaters in the past 15 years , but leaving the kids behind on beautiful weekend drives to Napa , Marin coast , Monterey Bay is a none starter for me at this point in their lives .

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