Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430 - Page1

May 24, 2005 9:24:47 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Nick, you have missed your own point!

The F430 is no Volvo or Mercedes when it comes to active safety technology, nor is it anywhere near the passive and active safety technology levels that Porsches have.

It can bite you bad. Its speed and mass are disguised by technology that masks its weight in the handling department,
and thats what your CGT pal was trying to tell you.

Look up the physics term "conservation of energy"

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May 24, 2005 9:31:05 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Nick - do you think that Ferrari is irresponsible to sell the F430 with a CST OFF setting? If it is driven in that setting does it become a rolling coffin?

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May 24, 2005 9:58:58 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Look up the physics term "conservation of energy"

Damn, Jim! I'm looking forward to you trying to explain Newton's Laws of Motion to Nick!

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May 24, 2005 10:23:31 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Look up the physics term "conservation of energy"

Damn, Jim! I'm looking forward to you trying to explain Newton's Laws of Motion to Nick!

Donno if its possible to

Until there is a break through, the comedy will continue!

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May 24, 2005 10:41:39 PM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Out of curiosity, how does the 430 behave at the limit? I'm assuming, from your comments, that some of you have done a lot of ten-tenths laps in the car. Exactly how does it "bite you bad"? Power on oversteer in high speed corners?

Or is this just all the usual chatboard bs?

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May 24, 2005 11:07:35 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: WCH

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
WCH said:
Out of curiosity, how does the 430 behave at the limit? I'm assuming, from your comments, that some of you have done a lot of ten-tenths laps in the car. Exactly how does it "bite you bad"? Power on oversteer in high speed corners?

Or is this just all the usual chatboard bs?

We are awaitning Nicks discovery and explanation of the F430's special "robotino" driving controls about this subject: nberry said:
"Cars which are designed for speed and performance but without safety features in order to allow the driver to explore the very limits of the car (ahem, for the "true" drivers) are the coffins with 4 wheels. Ferrari does have a setting to allow for this."

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May 24, 2005 11:07:43 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: WCH

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
WCH said:
Out of curiosity, how does the 430 behave at the limit? I'm assuming, from your comments, that some of you have done a lot of ten-tenths laps in the car. Exactly how does it "bite you bad"? Power on oversteer in high speed corners?

Or is this just all the usual chatboard bs?

Have not had it the limit because it is new. This all started because of comments regarding the car tameness in performance driving. It is easier to drive this car hard and reach its limits. When I do, it will be in race mode and not CST off.

Many here feel a true performance car is one without safety features to interfere with testing the limits of the car. Thus it has a raw feel. My response is that type of car is a rolling coffin. All I get in rebuttal is all cars are dangerous if not driven right, blah, blah blah.

My point has nothing to do with airbags or other structural safety features of a car. It has to do with driving performance aids. Obviously, some are not getting it.

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May 24, 2005 11:14:10 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Nick, did you coin the word "contradiction" ?

In "race" mode (wich might be one notch above "Speed Racer mode") there will be no digital nannies or new rules of physics to save you!

I say go for it!

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May 24, 2005 11:45:17 PM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

"It is easier to drive this car hard and reach its limits."

Nick, I disagree - based, of course, on the same zero experience driving the car at the limit that everyone else here has!

I think it's hard to drive virtually any car consistently at its limit. If it were easy to do, everyone would do it. The aids may make it easier for a club track day amateur to scare himself, but that's not the same as dancing on the limit.

I think the claim is being made that the 430, perhaps to a greater degree than other modern sportscars, is tricky because the electronic aids forgive so much - until they abruptly, and without warning, become unforgiving. The 430 is said to be uncommunicative, providing little feedback. I suppose it follows that the car is even more dangerous with the aids turned off?

I'm simply trying to determine whether anyone here has actually tested the car at the limit, or this is all just bench racer speculation - and I think the question has been answered.

I turn off the ASR when I drive my CS on the track, and I'd probably turn everything off in the 430, depending on the track and other factors; that's nothing more than a personal preference. Whether the 430 is faster or more predictable or more communicative or more forgiving on track at the limit with or without aids, in the hands of a skilled driver - well, it seems to me you need to test it to figure that one out.

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May 24, 2005 11:51:43 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
nberry said:Many here feel a true performance car is one without safety features to interfere with testing the limits of the car. Thus it has a raw feel. My response is that type of car is a rolling coffin.

It's not just lack of electronic intervention. It's communication through the steering wheel, good pedal feel, and a solid "seat of the pants" sense of what the car is trying to do. If electronics prevents the car from providing these things, then they may be undesirable. AMG Mercs are a perfect example. Rawness is also provided by the lack of sound deadening, tight fitting seats, loud exhausts, etc.

If electornic aids only attempt to intervene when you are really in trouble, then you still get that raw driving experience below the threshold point. But by then, are the aids too late? I'm guessing Ben prefers the feel of the Stradale, well before electronics would intervene in the F430 or the Stradale, if it had a similar system.

Will I see you Saturday? Interested to listen to what you think about these electronic aids when pushing it. In a 500hp car, traction control can be useful and less annoying if it still allows a certain about of slip. The Corvette Z06 lets you get quite out of line before it tries to do anything. But that car is not known for driving feel.

So I guess it depends if you feel the driving aids are contributing are hampering your driving experience. Much of it has to do with the point in which the aids intervene. In some cars, they are counterintuitive.

- J

PS: This leads me to another question. The limits are getting so high on these cars, it seems more appropriate to explore the limits on the track (rather than the street) any way...where you might feel less obligated to have aids at all.

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May 24, 2005 11:57:25 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: WCH

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
WCH said:
The 430 is said to be uncommunicative, providing little feedback. I suppose it follows that the car is even more dangerous with the aids turned off?

I think this is a very interesting question and would like to hear what Nick or Ben has to say about it, having experience in both the F430 and Stradale. My logic (fault perhaps), has been that a more communicative car gives the driver more warning before something is to happen.

Then again, the kind of tires make a huge difference. The closer you get to racing type, the less warning they give before letting go.

Also, the F430 is surely no Buick or Merc, so I bet there will be debates about how much road feel is necessary.

- J

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May 25, 2005 12:02:10 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Justin

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
Justin said:
Quote:
nberry said:Many here feel a true performance car is one without safety features to interfere with testing the limits of the car. Thus it has a raw feel. My response is that type of car is a rolling coffin.

It's not just lack of electronic intervention. It's communication through the steering wheel, good pedal feel, and a solid "seat of the pants" sense of what the car is trying to do. If electronics prevents the car from providing these things, then they may be undesirable. AMG Mercs are a perfect example. Rawness is also provided by the lack of sound deadening, tight fitting seats, loud exhausts, etc.

If electornic aids only attempt to intervene when you are really in trouble, then you still get that raw driving experience below the threshold point. But by then, are the aids too late? I'm guessing Ben prefers the feel of the Stradale, well before electronics would intervene in the F430 or the Stradale, if it had a similar system.

Will I see you Saturday? Interested to listen to what you think about these electronic aids when pushing it. In a 500hp car, traction control can be useful and less annoying if it still allows a certain about of slip. The Corvette Z06 lets you get quite out of line before it tries to do anything. But that car is not known for driving feel.

So I guess it depends if you feel the driving aids are contributing are hampering your driving experience. Much of it has to do with the point in which the aids intervene. In some cars, they are counterintuitive.

- J

PS: This leads me to another question. The limits are getting so high on these cars, it seems more appropriate to explore the limits on the track (rather than the street) any way...where you might feel less obligated to have aids at all.

Justin what is going on Saturday?

WCH, I doubt any of us have the driving skill to reach the limits of our cars. True you can turn off AST but have you timed yourself with it on and off and if so what was the difference if any? I read that drivers do better times with safety features on rather than off. The mental state of the driver may allow to perform better knowing full well that should he error the aids will grant him a reprieve.

I AM NOT ADDRESSING A SITUATION WHERE A DRIVER EVEN WITH SAFETY AIDS ENGAGED DRIVES IRRESPONSIBLY. THE LAWS OF PHYSIC'S CANNOT BE OVERCOME.

Capice Jim?

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May 25, 2005 12:14:03 AM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Quote:
nberry said:I read that drivers do better times with safety features on rather than off. The mental state of the driver may allow to perform better knowing full well that should he error the aids will grant him a reprieve.

Race mode must be just that then...tuned for the track, and not designed to save you on the street. If the algorithms are designed to allow what Mercedes would define as significat slip, then I can see them not being as annoying. But typically, for best lap times, the rear needs to be slipping slightly more than the front. Just my (short) experience anyway.

Saturday I believe is the monthly Carlsbad meet. Unfortunately we don't seem to see one another other than at that event.

BTW, I spun my Elise on Saturday. Base suspension and everthing. Wanted to see how forgiving it was in lift throttle situations on the track and around the back came. Once you figure out its behavior, the oversteer is very catchable, and progressive. Though it doesn't have even half of 500 hp, so it's relatively easy to drive compared to a high powered Porsche or Ferrari

- J

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May 25, 2005 12:23:43 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Yup. Experience is everything!

Be safe!

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May 25, 2005 3:14:58 AM

WCH: Junior; Loc: USA East; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 4, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

"WCH, I doubt any of us have the driving skill to reach the limits of our cars."

If you'd seen me drive, you wouldn't have any doubt that my limit is way below my car's!

"True you can turn off AST but have you timed yourself with it on and off and if so what was the difference if any? I read that drivers do better times with safety features on rather than off."

Interesting question. But no, I don't think I'm going to get all that serious with pushing the Stradale even to my own limit, I don't want to hurt it! Besides, slicks are coming, I hope, which should change the game a bit.

Justin - the Elise - what a great track toy!

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May 25, 2005 7:23:17 AM

Patriek: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 702, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 9, 2004; Reply to: WCH

Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

Nick, as owning a 430, I know exactly what you mean ! and you are RIGHT !
Very, very few people will use it with CST off .... nomather what they say !
But I know what you are trying to explain, and I think you have to experience it before all that 'well known judging'.

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