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    May 12, 2005 6:46:16 PM

    GnilM
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    Gnil
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Dilinger: You got your answers . Plus = more for less $

    Ferdie: The 996 C4S felt heavy ! It didn' have the nice grip/slide feeling the simple C4 had. In fact it felt the engine was not powerfull enough for the chassis... It was a very twisted and slow track ( they even put cones in most corners not to allow us to go too fast and to have to do 90 degres angles) In that situation the car was too grippy. This is my feeling with my little experience, maybe on a fast track it would be different.

    Pic911s: On sports mode the TIP was reving high. If you used the buttons on the steering wheel , the sound was nearly like a manual. The change of gear wasn' t as slow as I had expected. The only problem was when on full automatic, in the middle of a corner , the gear changed when I didn' t want it to . So , It wasn' t as bad as expected, fiirst I didn' t even want to try it, but one can have a good time on the track with it if you are a TIP owner.

    AS for the Panda ( shoe box)..well, I don't know if it reaches the legal speed on the motorway ? And I need to drive on the motorway to get to the alps....so what about a Lada 4WD ? they are cheap !

    May 12, 2005 7:26:22 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: temm

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:

    As to the AWD, if by bad weather you mean snow then forget AWD, the important thing is getting snow tires..
    My too cents



    Ehh, not quite sure what you mean here Carlos. Won't snow tires and 4wd be the best option for driving in the snow? That's my two cents



    sure but Ferdie already gave my answer: "The AWD config on the Carrera is more aimed at improving vehicle dynamics than improving traction in bad weather". Its not as effective as a Torque Sensing Audi Quattro type sytem or as sofisticated as a Subaru Impreza or Mitsu EVO AWD type system, its a simple viscouscopling differential with a sporty setup (perfect for a 911), so it helps yes but not as much as what we tend to associate with regular AWD or 4x4 help in winter driving.

    May 12, 2005 7:43:32 PM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    but the C4S plus had 345 HP and it felt slow?

    May 12, 2005 9:47:01 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Dilinger said:
    but the C4S plus had 345 HP and it felt slow?



    It didn' t feel slow...It felt not powerfull enough for such a wide body compared to the narrow C4. It' s just that I was much more comfortable and had much more fun with the C4 in those slow corners as the car would slide nicely with my kind of driving. It' s hard to explain, but with the C4S Plus it was more like slide-stick-slide-stick in the corners...as I said , maybe on faster corners it would be different.

    May 12, 2005 9:53:33 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    gnil said:
    Quote:
    Dilinger said:
    but the C4S plus had 345 HP and it felt slow?



    It didn' t feel slow...It felt not powerfull enough for such a wide body compared to the narrow C4. It' s just that I was much more comfortable and had much more fun with the C4 in those slow corners as the car would slide nicely with my kind of driving. It' s hard to explain, but with the C4S Plus it was more like slide-stick-slide-stick in the corners...as I said , maybe on faster corners it would be different.



    And isn' t the C4S chassis the same as the 450 HP TT ?
    So a chassis developed for a much more powerfull car....
    I had tried this car before on open roads and there too, I found it less 'fun' than a C4 or a 997 C2
    It' s a bit like having 195/50 R17 tyres on a Panda Not fun

    May 13, 2005 8:10:59 AM

    temm
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    sure but Ferdie already gave my answer: "The AWD config on the Carrera is more aimed at improving vehicle dynamics than improving traction in bad weather". Its not as effective as a Torque Sensing Audi Quattro type sytem or as sofisticated as a Subaru Impreza or Mitsu EVO AWD type system, its a simple viscouscopling differential with a sporty setup (perfect for a 911), so it helps yes but not as much as what we tend to associate with regular AWD or 4x4 help in winter driving.



    Which is exactly why I'm disappointed that the 997 C4S doesn't get the rumoured eletronic 4wd system. Or at least not yet...(I guess they're saving it for the mid-life update)

    May 13, 2005 8:34:17 AM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:

    As to the AWD, if by bad weather you mean snow then forget AWD, the important thing is getting snow tires..
    My too cents



    Ehh, not quite sure what you mean here Carlos. Won't snow tires and 4wd be the best option for driving in the snow? That's my two cents



    sure but Ferdie already gave my answer: "The AWD config on the Carrera is more aimed at improving vehicle dynamics than improving traction in bad weather". Its not as effective as a Torque Sensing Audi Quattro type sytem or as sofisticated as a Subaru Impreza or Mitsu EVO AWD type system, its a simple viscouscopling differential with a sporty setup (perfect for a 911), so it helps yes but not as much as what we tend to associate with regular AWD or 4x4 help in winter driving.



    CARLOS: Why did you go for the 996 C4 ? Did you regret it?
    Did you like the andling?

    May 13, 2005 12:47:49 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    gnil said:
    CARLOS: Why did you go for the 996 C4 ? Did you regret it?
    Did you like the andling?



    Gnil,
    I went for the 996C4 because it was my first Porsche and I know myself so I decided to go with the AWD as a precaution to my "hot blood" especially in wet , also the MY99C4 is only 50kg heavier than the C2 (lighter than a 997C2 ) with no other added weights and stuff that would negatively affect performance. I also got it with the RoW M030 to reduce the inherent tendency to understeer of the AWD for a more neutral setup and it really helps, along with the 18" wheels and 265 rears. My MY99 C4 as its setup is the most RWD-like of all the AWD 996/997's (very light and neutral).
    The C4 is easy to drive, too much power out of a corner? no problem the torque is reduced in the rear and at the same time its sent to the front to "pull" the car... its more forgiving at the limit. But on the bad side there is a price, the steering is also a bit less sensitive than the RWD when at the limit due to the front wheels sharing some of the torque, the dinamics of the car are not as sporty, it tends to understeer a bit more, its not as playful.

    So now after many miles I'm treating myself to the RWD version, sportier, more agile, lighter... what I want from a 911.
    For this, I'm not going back to the AWD, besides there are other reasons which concern specifically to the 997 AWD:

    - the 997 has great traction alreaady
    - the -20mm has a rear differential which helps controling the rear even further
    - the 997 AWD C4 versions have negative conotations that my 996C4 did not have, one is excesive weight (the RWD base 997 is already heavier than my C4), a pricetag I would rather spend on a powerkit for example, and exgarerated sized rear tires that are in conflict with a performance/handling nut like me. I don't like the road Porsche followed with the AWD version of the 997 compared to the 996 C4.
    - modern tires are incredible in wet and with PSM the safety factor of the AWD is diluted greatly now.

    If I had to decide again back when I bought the C4, I would probably got a C2 w/ powerkit instead. I don't think I "needed" the AWD, but I don't regret it either, its been a GREAT car.

    But it comes down to a personal preference, this is just mine

    May 13, 2005 1:36:44 PM

    GnilM
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    Gnil
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    gnil said:
    CARLOS: Why did you go for the 996 C4 ? Did you regret it?
    Did you like the andling?



    Gnil,
    I went for the 996C4 because it was my first Porsche and I know myself so I decided to go with the AWD as a precaution to my "hot blood" especially in wet , also the MY99C4 is only 50kg heavier than the C2 (lighter than a 997C2 ) with no other added weights and stuff that would negatively affect performance. I also got it with the RoW M030 to reduce the inherent tendency to understeer of the AWD for a more neutral setup and it really helps, along with the 18" wheels and 265 rears. My MY99 C4 as its setup is the most RWD-like of all the AWD 996/997's (very light and neutral).
    The C4 is easy to drive, too much power out of a corner? no problem the torque is reduced in the rear and at the same time its sent to the front to "pull" the car... its more forgiving at the limit. But on the bad side there is a price, the steering is also a bit less sensitive than the RWD when at the limit due to the front wheels sharing some of the torque, the dinamics of the car are not as sporty, it tends to understeer a bit more, its not as playful.

    So now after many miles I'm treating myself to the RWD version, sportier, more agile, lighter... what I want from a 911.
    For this, I'm not going back to the AWD, besides there are other reasons which concern specifically to the 997 AWD:

    - the 997 has great traction alreaady
    - the -20mm has a rear differential which helps controling the rear even further
    - the 997 AWD C4 versions have negative conotations that my 996C4 did not have, one is excesive weight (the RWD base 997 is already heavier than my C4), a pricetag I would rather spend on a powerkit for example, and exgarerated sized rear tires that are in conflict with a performance/handling nut like me. I don't like the road Porsche followed with the AWD version of the 997 compared to the 996 C4.
    - modern tires are incredible in wet and with PSM the safety factor of the AWD is diluted greatly now.

    If I had to decide again back when I bought the C4, I would probably got a C2 w/ powerkit instead. I don't think I "needed" the AWD, but I don't regret it either, its been a GREAT car.

    But it comes down to a personal preference, this is just mine

    May 13, 2005 1:47:53 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Sorry , hit the wrong button!!

    Carlos:
    What is the RoW M030 option?
    My reason to think about the 997 C4S is also my tendency to allways want to go to the limits ( and it will be also my first Porsche)...hoping it can help me not to learn the hard way to control my right foot better! We have great mountain roads around here ( a little bit like the one we see on your birthday photo with the GSX)...and I love to go up and down, up and down....
    Now I do understand that the 997 has better traction than 996, and that PSM does help a lot and I will order the sports chassis on either model.
    How can you already predict the ' not nice handling' of the 997 C4S ?
    I know 305 tyres seem way too much... but we do not know how much heavier it will be ! The 0 to 100 km/h is the same, so what have they done to keep these figures?
    Caled my dealer a few minutes ago.. delivery time for a 997 C2S now would be october , 997 C4S october/november.
    The price difference would pay for the X51 option!!
    See.... I am still torn.. but will get to the right choice soon, I am shure!

    May 13, 2005 2:05:24 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    gnil said:
    Sorry , hit the wrong button!!

    Carlos:
    What is the RoW M030 option?
    My reason to think about the 997 C4S is also my tendency to allways want to go to the limits ( and it will be also my first Porsche)...hoping it can help me not to learn the hard way to control my right foot better! We have great mountain roads around here ( a little bit like the one we see on your birthday photo with the GSX)...and I love to go up and down, up and down....
    Now I do understand that the 997 has better traction than 996, and that PSM does help a lot and I will order the sports chassis on either model.
    How can you already predict the ' not nice handling' of the 997 C4S ?
    I know 305 tyres seem way too much... but we do not know how much heavier it will be ! The 0 to 100 km/h is the same, so what have they done to keep these figures?
    Caled my dealer a few minutes ago.. delivery time for a 997 C2S now would be october , 997 C4S october/november.
    The price difference would pay for the X51 option!!
    See.... I am still torn.. but will get to the right choice soon, I am shure!




    Gnill,
    The RoWM030 is the -10mm sport suspension for the 996 C2/C4.

    The tires will be 305 but that doens't depend on the weight, it depends of the power of the car and its weight & power distribution. The C4S would need even less rear tires than the C2S (which are already huge) becuase its AWD, so haveing even larger tires won't precisely help out.

    The handling of the 997C4S will be to the 997C2S what the 996C4 is to the 996C2, so that part is predictable, and it will probably be even a bit more difference in the 997C4S' case since the 996C4 was very light (just 50kg more), tires choices were more performance oriented, and the 996C2 does not have the traction of the 997 nor the rear LSD of the -20mm.
    But I don't want you to believe that the handling of the 997C4S would be bad, thats crazy, you will be haoppy with either car, its just a bit different with each. Probably something in between the 996C4 and the 996C4S you tried on the track, but with a 997 chasis and evolution.
    Also something to consider is that it seems you can get the -20mm on the C4S so that could change things a bit and make it sportier and more RWD like

    May 13, 2005 4:36:59 PM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    maybe you can also see it as a looks vs performance

    as it is easy to figure the C2S will be faster than C4S, at least on the road..dunno about the track


    Think of it as:

    Wider cars, bigger tires AWD VS SPORTS PERFORMANCE


    I would go for C2S Plus X51 that would be a killer

    May 14, 2005 2:14:11 AM

    Rami
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    We are having the exact same (luxurious) problem gnil. I'm also trying to chose the best car for me (C2S cabrio or C4S cabrio). From what I read and heard I think I will go for the 2S with (if possible) the X51 option.

    May 14, 2005 8:54:20 AM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Rami

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    I would like to know how much heavyer the 997 C4S will be?
    Can I expect about 50 kg?

    May 14, 2005 9:11:37 AM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    50kg is the bare minimum that accounts practically just for the AWD system, but if the C4S has wider track and they modified the chasis, then expect more than that. I'd venture to guess maybe more like 75kg heavier than the 997C2S, but who knows, I'm curious too.

    May 14, 2005 12:15:09 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Rami

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Rami said:
    We are having the exact same (luxurious) problem gnil. I'm also trying to chose the best car for me (C2S cabrio or C4S cabrio). From what I read and heard I think I will go for the 2S with (if possible) the X51 option.



    Is your mind completly made up?
    Are you by any chance in Anvers? ( it' s just that I have a friend there that could be having the same 'luxury' problem and wondered if it was you)

    May 14, 2005 12:31:50 PM

    Rami
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    gnil said:

    Is your mind completly made up?
    Are you by any chance in Anvers? ( it' s just that I have a friend there that could be having the same 'luxury' problem and wondered if it was you)

    DOH? Do we know each other in some way? I do live in the whereabouts of Antwerp yes. Please explain

    It's not COMPLETELY set up no but for about 90%
    As I'm going for the cabrio it might be an even longer wait and I don't feel a lot like doing that either. My dealer told me they would most likely be available around the same time but they can't say for sure of course.

    For me right now it's more about the looks then it is about the driving experience really. Since we don't have REAL winter days in Belgium, a lot of wet days that's for sure. But from what I heard the 2S seems to be able to handle that perfectly.

    May 14, 2005 1:02:23 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Rami

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Rami said:
    Quote:
    gnil said:

    Is your mind completly made up?
    Are you by any chance in Anvers? ( it' s just that I have a friend there that could be having the same 'luxury' problem and wondered if it was you)

    DOH? Do we know each other in some way? I do live in the whereabouts of Antwerp yes. Please explain

    It's not COMPLETELY set up no but for about 90%
    As I'm going for the cabrio it might be an even longer wait and I don't feel a lot like doing that either. My dealer told me they would most likely be available around the same time but they can't say for sure of course.

    For me right now it's more about the looks then it is about the driving experience really. Since we don't have REAL winter days in Belgium, a lot of wet days that's for sure. But from what I heard the 2S seems to be able to handle that perfectly.



    Yes, I am sure the cab 2s would be no problem in Belgium..... anyway , you do not have any mountain roads.. Only strait flat wet crouded highways...
    My friends name is Henry....

    May 14, 2005 1:34:49 PM

    Rami
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    I will make my final decision right after the Francorchamps Days next weekend. Hopefully I will be able to see a Slate Grey over there. I will let you know what it will be
    I'm not Henry. Would have been weird if I was now, wouldn't it

    May 14, 2005 2:10:50 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: Rami

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Rami ,,

    On my 997S order , Slate Grey is my color choice along with the -20mm and short shift . Also going for the classic wheels..

    Seen this spec at my dealer and it looks very good indeed..

    throt.

    May 14, 2005 9:29:18 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Rami

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Rami said:
    I will make my final decision right after the Francorchamps Days next weekend. Hopefully I will be able to see a Slate Grey over there. I will let you know what it will be
    I'm not Henry. Would have been weird if I was now, wouldn't it


    Please do let me know....
    I have seen slate grey ( it's the demo car at the dealers) Very nice...At one point I was going for it, now I think it will be the now classic Seal grey( a color that I didn' t like up to last week things change...always....), short shift, -20mm, carrera S wheels and a few other little options, still not completly sure if 2wd or 4 wd

    May 15, 2005 12:08:09 PM

    Rami
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Throt or gnil: Do any of you have decent pictures from a Slate Grey 997? The ones I've seen so far where pictures taken by Porsche and they always look different.

    May 15, 2005 12:37:02 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Rami

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Rami said:
    Throt or gnil: Do any of you have decent pictures from a Slate Grey 997? The ones I've seen so far where pictures taken by Porsche and they always look different.



    Sorry, no pictures. The color can look very different depending on light, going from nearly black when it' s dark to some kind of dark green reflections when it's in the sun... sometimes going towards the braun. You have to see it in real... pictures will always be different...and you must try to see it under different lights if possible...

    May 15, 2005 12:40:30 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    slate grey

    May 15, 2005 12:44:24 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    found one, but it doesn' t look often like that in real...
    There in one picture on Rennteam ( I do not have it) showing the slate at night in London

    May 15, 2005 1:08:01 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Rami,,

    Its so hard to get a damn pic of the Slate Grey even had a word with the dealership that I am dealing with but he stated they are very rare but stunning.

    I have seen some in the flesh before the PDI stage ( Including GT Silver ) with import protective cladding on and it does look very good.

    Also in the compound I noted a lot of people are going for the Classic Wheels .

    Mine , Slate Grey with Stone Grey interior..Simplicity...

    Any luck on seeing one and I will be in touch...

    throt.

    May 15, 2005 1:14:28 PM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: Rami

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Quote:
    Rami said:
    Throt or gnil: Do any of you have decent pictures from a Slate Grey 997? The ones I've seen so far where pictures taken by Porsche and they always look different.



    Here I found another one..

    May 15, 2005 1:22:07 PM

    throt
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Tried 12 different Porche today

    Laughing my butt off here ,, jeeps your quick..

    For me its between GT Silver or Slate Grey with the Classics and -20mm..

    Oh yes ,, what about a slight tint to the windows look awsome on the GT Silver..

    throt.
     
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