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    May 5, 2005 11:09:20 AM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    I am fascinated by the concept of supercharging and turbocharging an engine to maximize air compression (and thus fuel use) in the charged engine. I understand the basic concept of superchargers using a pulley system to force more air into the engine via power from the engine crankshaft and of turbochargers using the engine exhaust stream to accomplish this. I also have heard of the three main types of supercharger (roots blowers, twin-screw and centrifugal SC's).

    Questions:
    1. Is one particular SC system (regardless of cost) "better" than another, or more safe?
    2. Is it possible to simultaneously supercharge and turbocharge an engine (to obviate the turbocharger's lag at lower rpm's) or is this not safe due to overcompression of the air fuel mixture?
    3. Could a combo. SC/TC engine be sufficiently cooled and of low additional weight to improve performance ?

    May 5, 2005 11:12:00 AM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    are you thinking of a 911?

    May 5, 2005 11:16:14 AM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Dilinger

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    The thought has crossed my mind. . . .

    May 5, 2005 11:21:10 AM

    Dilinger
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    i believe it the wrong thought that it crossed your mind.....

    Dont mess up a 911.

    May 5, 2005 6:39:47 PM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    1. I don't know, I'm not much of a supercharger guy.

    2. Yes, but I don't see the reason to do it on a 911 since 911s have enough displacement and with two turbos the lag is minimal. Supercharging and turbocharging at the same time has been done to certain group B rally cars and the aftermarket has done it with MR2s and Mini coopers.

    3. See above.

    Many times it's better with Porsches to start with a turbo motor and swap it in. This is extremely expensive on modern models although with earlier cars this isn't that difficult. I wouldn't try to figure this out all by myself because there are enough tuners that already have. There are supercharger kits for regular 996s that seem reliable enough and certainly make enough power 400+. If you're talking about 997s I'd say either do one of 3 things, enjoy a 380 hp powerkit S, wait for the 997 turbo, or wait for someone to build a supercharger kit for the 997 S.

    May 5, 2005 7:50:34 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    See "997"." Supercharger"
    http://www.evoms.com/porsche%20ec%20art%20test.htm

    May 6, 2005 12:15:08 AM

    palenimbus
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    I think the Koenigsegg CCR has a TC/SC combo.

    May 6, 2005 1:04:24 AM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: palenimbus

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Thanks all. Dilinger's point is well-taken.

    My plan is to get in line for a 997TSCab (hopefully not too long a wait! ) and only think about a supercharger if I'm comfortable with the engineering and believe it would be worth the effort. From what everyone is anticipating of the 997T, any tweaking will be unnecessary.

    May 6, 2005 3:52:19 AM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    I have heard that with a Supercharger you lose power in the top end of the rev's. This is just what I hear, can anyone confirm this? But ofcourse with a SC your not going to have to wait for the Turbo to spool up, so there is one major plus. The other thing about Supercharging 911's is that I dont see many of them done. That worries me into thinking people do not trust them.

    May 6, 2005 8:25:46 AM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    Thanks all. Dilinger's point is well-taken.

    My plan is to get in line for a 997TSCab (hopefully not too long a wait! ) and only think about a supercharger if I'm comfortable with the engineering and believe it would be worth the effort. From what everyone is anticipating of the 997T, any tweaking will be unnecessary.



    Umm, I thought you meant supercharging a normally aspirated 911. If you have a turbo 911 already, just take it to a good tuner, you can get 650+ lag free horses with relative ease using just the turbos.

    May 6, 2005 10:48:50 AM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    My thought (and the point of my quesions) was that I wondered if a turbocharged 911 could also be supercharged and tuned to utilize the supercharger for low-rpm air-fuel compression and theturbocharger for higher-rpm air-fuel compression. I think one reason superchargers aren't used much on 911's is that their owners are turned off by most of the cheap belt tack-on kits (I hear they're noisy in a dissonant way). BTW, I think the Koenigsegg supercar uses only a supercharger (centrifugal type) without a turbo. I'll probably do nothing more than take Yargk's advice and do no more than "tweak" a 997TSCab without major engine mods.

    May 6, 2005 12:27:34 PM

    W8MM
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    ... I wondered if a turbocharged 911 could also be supercharged and tuned to utilize the supercharger for low-rpm air-fuel compression and the turbocharger for higher-rpm air-fuel compression.



    One long-time racer/engineer around where I live used a Nitrous Oxide hook-up for low-rpm torque and a boost-pressure-triggered shut-off switch to stop the NOx when the turbo kicked in.

    He was really hard to keep up with as he exited corners on the track

    May 6, 2005 12:58:02 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Quote:
    Al Pettee said:
    My thought (and the point of my quesions) was that I wondered if a turbocharged 911 could also be supercharged and tuned to utilize the supercharger for low-rpm air-fuel compression and theturbocharger for higher-rpm air-fuel compression.



    Never heard of that being done, but a similar effect can be achieved with using two turbochargers in SERIAL instead of parallel. One smaller Turbo with less inertia/lag would be set for low RPM, and the other to incorporate at higher RPM's therefore boosting in a serial fashion along the rpm band starting form low revs.

    The Porsche 959 and the Totoya Supra Biturbo I believe used Serial Bi-turbos, but didn't seem to catch one, I think becuase of the complexity and the costs did not compensate the advantage of just fitting Twin Turbocharges in Pararlel, like in the 996TT, which already works very well.

    Still tunners have mods for the 996TT that will reduce lag even further and increase power very easily, and satisfy most drivers expectations for a forced induction engined car.


    SN: the Koenigsegg uses TWO superchargers (no turbos). The SLR is also supercharged but uses one. The Bugatti Veyron uses FOUR Turbochargers .The more purist, driver's supercars; Zonda, Enzo, and Carrea GT are all N/A.

    May 6, 2005 1:47:31 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Thanks Carlos,

    Do you know how a 911TT (996 and 997 when released) is best tweaked to reduce lag and improve accel.? In the USA I have few opportunities for top-end fast (legal )driving-speed limits here top out at 65 mph (105 km/hour) on highways and I don't track-race, so my desire is for most of the power to handle 0-60 or 0-80 mph runs as well as mid-range passing power (50-80 mph). Can the gear-ratios be changed or are there other mods. like different exhausts/cats/downpipes, different cylinder/piston materials or something more simple that won't increase risk of mechanical failure?

    May 6, 2005 2:19:30 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Sorry, I'm not particularly familiar with 996TT model tunning, but post a thread on that topic in the 996 Turbo section and other members can help you out.
    I believe member "Dock (Atlanta)" for example has modded his 996TT with GIAC and is very happy, "RC" had a RS-tunnig modded 996TT and was also happy. I'm sure they can give you better advice

    May 6, 2005 4:25:13 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Thanks again,

    I'll jump on the 996TT site.

    May 7, 2005 5:26:32 PM

    Captain Tal
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    A Supercharger is safe, reliable and relatively inexpensive way to vastly improve the performance of NA cars. Putting a SC on a Turbo doesn't make sense and I am not even sure how you would do it. If you are getting a Turbo S, get it flashed and you wil be more than happy.

    May 7, 2005 11:42:02 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Captain Tal

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Thanks Captain Tal,

    I assume what you mean by "flashed" is to tweak the engine via electronics (changing the engine computer chip or re-programming it). Or do you also mean to tune it by changing some of the mechanicals (gear ratios, cats/exhausts, intakes, etc.)?

    I likely will wait for the 997TSCab and then tune it within reason.

    May 13, 2005 4:45:46 PM

    Captain Tal
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    Reply to: Turbo Al

    Re: Supercharger/Turbocharger 101

    Flashing your ECU is a simple process of exchanging the program of your cars ECU with a new and improved version. It takes about 15 minutes and makes quite an improvement in both NA and Turbo cars. It costs about $1000.

    Evolution Motorsports has been the industry leader in this area.

    Taken from the EVO (www.evoms.com )
    Flashloader: The long awaited Flashloader(TM) Flashing suite for Porsche(R) applications has now been released. Currently we offer ECU reprogramming through the OBD port for all of our 996 (2000-2004) 996 Twin Turbo (2001-2004) 997 (2005) and Boxster (2000-2004) performance applications. The Flashloader process does not require soldering/de-soldering, instead our install centers can now flash a performance program into the ECU without ever removing it. This technology is an industry first and is the safest most effective way to upgrade the performance from your Porsche(R).



    Procedure: The cars computer (ECU) has specific information that varies from car to car. Each ECU is coded to the cars immobilizer (anti theft computer) and contains other information such as the cars VIN #, car options, engine options as well as software that determines what country the cars origin is. When EVO or our authorized dealers upgrades your cars computer, we generate a program that is based on all of this information. We download through the OBD port the specific data about this car and create a performance file that is for your car only. At this point, the custom performance program is flashed through the OBD port just like at the factory. The whole procedure takes less than 1 hour and the performance achieved is well worth the time and money. We offer a 100% satisfaction guarantee and we will cover this upgrade with our limited lifetime warranty.

    May 13, 2005 5:30:10 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Captain Tal

    Re: Supercharger for 997 from Evom

    Price: $10,900 (Taking Orders for Dec. Delivery)
    Power: 470 HP @ 6800 RPM's
    Torque: 360 TQ from 5000 RPM's to 6800 RPM's
    Boost Pressure: 0.35 bar (5psi)

    I believe those results are for a supercharged 997c2, not a 997S.

    May 14, 2005 2:43:05 AM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Supercharger for 997 from Evom

    Thanks again Captain Tal,

    I actually e-mailed someone from EVO re. the flashing question. This was also part of my tuning of my Audi S4 I picked up this winter for my winter car (AWD Quattro, 4.3L V8 in the "Sport" version of the A4).

    Thanks JimFlat6,

    I asked the EVO folks about their supercharging experience and asked them if they tried supercharging a Porsche Turbo. They said indeed they tried it on a 996TT, but they didn't like the result. So I'll probably settle for the 997 in TS form and flash/tune it for some low-rpm extra torque.
     
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