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    Re: Very sad pics...

    I would make a joke, b/c that's the way I am... but my god... that person is either dead or forever paralyzed. God bless him. I hope only the best... that is tragic.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    It is things like that and others that keep us in check... I don't like it but one must realize their own mortality. We aren't perfect and we aren't immortal- it takes seeing things like that and others (not telling the websites) to realize that. WE all can die.. and it isn't great... we are human and we are flawed. I am saying a prayer even thoug I am not a religious man ... after my grandfathers funeral last week- the line is that we will all die.... no matter what. We are promised death- it is what we do in life distinguishes us a bit... but in death we are all the same.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Rest in peace my friend. God be with your family, my prayers are with them

    Re: Very sad pics...

    R.I.P.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    I have read that the black box from the Enzo pointed to 256km/h at the moment of impact...he hit a road sign.
    The driver was an experienced Enzo driver he had one of the top 5 times for costumers around fiorano, so people are expecting for the results of the autopsy, since people point to a problem with the drivers health before the crash.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Quote:
    rosso nuvola said:
    I have read that the black box from the Enzo pointed to 256km/h at the moment of impact...he hit a road sign.
    The driver was an experienced Enzo driver he had one of the top 5 times for costumers around fiorano, so people are expecting for the results of the autopsy, since people point to a problem with the drivers health before the crash.



    It would be very interesting if this proved to be a medical issue rather than some crazy Ferrari driver as most of the other boards are concluding.

    If the data logging in the car is capable of recording the impact speed, then it would be very unusual to crash at 256 km/h. Even if one lost control at that speed, one would quickly scrub off speed before hitting something. Without a mechanical failure, some distance needs to be covered before a car can be sideways and off the road enough to hit a sign mid section.

    Also notice how relatively close all of the pieces are to each other. I would have guessed a much slower crash speed. At 256 km/h, the parts would have been spread over a considerable distance.

    And so, I'm not that impressed with the strength of the chassis. Compare this to very high speed crashes in the Porsche Carrera GT. The CGT chassis stayed together around the passenger cell. If there is a complaint against the CGT, it is that it was too solid and the rest of the chassis did not crumple sufficiently. But this chassis seems to have completely disintegrated around the passenger compartment and seems to have easily shed energy absorbing parts of the car.

    Still, difficult to really tell much of anything from just one crash.

    Sad but crashes are going to happen.

    Stephen

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Well, if the driver was having a stroke or heart attack, at least he didn't suffer. Probably far less painful to crash at 160mph than dying of a heart attack. Glad that no other vehicles or passengers were involved...

    Re: Very sad pics...



    There are more pictures. http://www.uk-performance.net/newforums/integramod132c/integramod/viewtopic.php?p=1015#1015

    I'm just wondering if that tire on the road is from the Enzo. It doesn't look wide enough to me but then again I've never really taken notice of an Enzo's tires.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Well, if the driver was having a stroke or heart attack, at least he didn't suffer. Probably far less painful to crash at 160mph than dying of a heart attack. Glad that no other vehicles or passengers were involved...



    Another point on the speed....

    If the car logged data, that data would come from the wheel speed sensors. But if the car was travelling sideways (as it would need to be doing if it broadsided a road sign), then the wheel speed sensors would be inacurate.

    I am very dubious of the claimed speed -- especially on that road.

    Stephen

    Re: Very sad pics...

    dude u are using this tragic accitent to compere ferraris and porsches, come on man have a hart.

    Did u think that maybe he was going 256 before he hit someting and then spun and hit hte sign, he could have been going over 200 eazy.

    RIP, condolonces to the family

    Re: Very sad pics...

    R.I.P.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Quote:
    arakis said:
    dude u are using this tragic accitent to compere ferraris and porsches, come on man have a hart.

    Did u think that maybe he was going 256 before he hit someting and then spun and hit hte sign, he could have been going over 200 eazy.



    You are right. I am. But I think the comparisons are reasonable. These are new tech cars which haven't been crashed much in real-world conditions. It is important to see how they do so that we can all learn from it. Hopefully, the result will be better cars in the future and less loss of life. In my opinion, that's a goal worthy of looking at the issue even though to some it might be painful.

    You might be right on the speed. I don't know. I'm just saying that I have my doubts.

    Stephen

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Quote:
    arakis said:
    dude u are using this tragic accitent to compere ferraris and porsches, come on man have a hart.

    Did u think that maybe he was going 256 before he hit someting and then spun and hit hte sign, he could have been going over 200 eazy.



    You are right. I am. But I think the comparisons are reasonable. These are new tech cars which haven't been crashed much in real-world conditions. It is important to see how they do so that we can all learn from it. Hopefully, the result will be better cars in the future and less loss of life. In my opinion, that's a goal worthy of looking at the issue even though to some it might be painful.

    You might be right on the speed. I don't know. I'm just saying that I have my doubts.

    Stephen



    Given F doesn't even have side/head airbags on its 4000lb+ 612s and 3600lb 430Spiders, I suspect safety engineering isn't a F priority/competence.....also, w/lim produc vols, safety is probably lowest R&D priority, as fewer units to spread these costs over.....

    But presumably any F buyer is sophisticated enough to quickly realize this....and chooses to accept the incremental risk over a P for the reward of more thrilling performance/exhaust note/styling/exclusivity, etc....to each his own ....not very dissimilar from those who choose the risk/rewards of motorcycles/downhill skiing, etc.....freedom to make these decisions comes w/living (or dying) w/the consequences when the risks actually materialize.....

    Re: Very sad pics...

    What are you saing man??? Have you lost it?
    Every Ferrari is crash tested untill it complies with US and European rules.No airbags so you think that he would have survived if the car had airbags!?

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Perhaps you are reading too much into VKSF's post? In an accident of this magnitude, who knows if airbags would save you. Certainly there is a threshold where they wouldn't. However, government crash standards do not mean that a company cannot surpass those minimum requirements. So total safety varies from model to model, depending on a number of factors. One of those could very well be side and head airbags. The type of crash will dictate their importance.

    In any case, sorry to hear about this accident. Best wishes to the family.

    - J

    Re: Very sad pics...

    What VKSF has said is completely on the mark and simple comon sense. A maker with the volume of Ferrari that does not include side airbags on their models tells alot about what prioriy "safety" has in their cars. In todays day and age, not including side airbags in a car such as a Ferrari that are used for the street and even in some cases as daily drivers, is ridiculous and negligent, especially becuase they do not affect the car's performancer or anything else. There is absolutely no reason why not to include them. And like he also said, being a small company with low volume, their R&D is limited, and satefy seems to take a back seat in their engineering of the chasis, active safety options, etc.

    But they can do what they want, and the owner can take the risks that he wants, as long as he is aware of them. I drive sportbikes with are 10x more dangerous, and thats my problem.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    What VKSF has said is completely on the mark and simple comon sense. A maker with the volume of Ferrari that does not include side airbags on their models tells alot about what prioriy "safety" has in their cars. In todays day and age, not including side airbags in a car such as a Ferrari that are used for the street and even in some cases as daily drivers, is ridiculous and negligent, especially becuase they do not affect the car's performancer or anything else. There is absolutely no reason why not to include them. And like he also said, being a small company with low volume, their R&D is limited, and satefy seems to take a back seat in their engineering of the chasis, active safety options, etc.



    Actually, airbags add weight. That harms performance. And let's not forget that Ferrari is Fiat and the Fiat group has tremendous resources. I have no doubt that it is the application of these resources that enabled Ferrari to win F1 and enabled Ferrari to buid a street car like the F430.

    So the safety choices are probably that -- choices. And apparently Ferrari has picked performance over safety. Is that negligent? That could be debated but I don't think so and knowing how much of a libertarian you are Carlos, I doubt you would either. Just so long as the facts are disclosed .. and now they are.

    By the way, far better than a side airbag is a helmet. Maybe the solution is for drivers of these cars to wear helmets?

    Stephen

    Re: Very sad pics...

    They do add weight of course, but its negligeable, compare the weight of the aibargs to many of the superflous creature conforts & gadgets Ferrari has its models now a days.

    The problem in my view is Spephen, that the facts are not disclosed, sure we know that they don't have side airbags and that should be pretty revealing of what Ferrari thinks the importance of safety is. But we do not know how well they do in crash tests compared to other makers in the same class, or if the catching fire of the 360 has been imporved, etc.. "what you don't know doesn't hurt you", but in this case its not true.
    Ferrari has changed (for good IMO), its not the impractical hand made sportcar for the ocasional use. Ferraris now a days get a lot more milage, are used by everyday average drivers, and their latest models can even be used as daily drivers... thats why I consider negligent that their safety "needs" have not evolved in the same manner as their expected use. The only way it will change is if they see the prspective owners consider it important.

    Fiat has many resources but if we look at how Fiat traditionally spends those resources in respect to the safety R&D of its own Fiat models, thats no very conforting either, quite the oposite.

    That said, the onwers makes the ultimate choice as you say, and they have the perfect right to choose what the like and do not like, or to care about airbags or not. Like I said, I drive sportbikes, and its my choice to do so, and its a much more irrational choice or "irresponsible" choice.

    I just think that offering side airbags will not hurt anybody (not performance in any significant way), au contraire, and its well worth the investment in R&D in the Ferraris of today that are driven by average drivers and everyday. The owners and their families deserve it IMO, for the price they pay, even Hyundai's offer them...

    Re: Very sad pics...

    I'm totally with Carlos on this reg. the airbags and safety.

    I'm not sure anything or having 20 airbags would have saved this guy judging from the impact.
    Perhaps an F1-safety cage and HANS restraint would have done the trick, but look at the pictures:
    The car is shredded which indicates he was doing some SERIOUS speed. 250 km/h perhaps less.
    Then look at the road he was driving on. Going 250 km/h...200 or even 150 km/h looks totally stupid IMO.
    On Fiorano at least you have a chance of hitting the softer safety measures instead of a roadside tree.

    I feel truly sorry for his kids and family. It's always a tradegy to lose a dad or husband. I believe the biggest tragedy in this case is the fact that he drove way too fast on a road with no run-off areas.
    Naturally I have no idea what really happened, but it doesn't take a genious to see that he was going very, very fast on a very narrow rural road.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    They do add weight of course, but its negligeable, compare the weight of the aibargs to many of the superflous creature conforts & gadgets Ferrari has its models now a days.

    The problem in my view is Spephen, that the facts are not disclosed, sure we know that they don't have side airbags and that should be pretty revealing of what Ferrari thinks the importance of safety is. But we do not know how well they do in crash tests compared to other makers in the same class, or if the catching fire of the 360 has been imporved, etc.. "what you don't know doesn't hurt you", but in this case its not true.
    Ferrari has changed (for good IMO), its not the impractical hand made sportcar for the ocasional use. Ferraris now a days get a lot more milage, are used by everyday average drivers, and their latest models can even be used as daily drivers... thats why I consider negligent that their safety "needs" have not evolved in the same manner as their expected use. The only way it will change is if they see the prspective owners consider it important.

    Fiat has many resources but if we look at how Fiat traditionally spends those resources in respect to the safety R&D of its own Fiat models, thats no very conforting either, quite the oposite.

    That said, the onwers makes the ultimate choice as you say, and they have the perfect right to choose what the like and do not like, or to care about airbags or not. Like I said, I drive sportbikes, and its my choice to do so, and its a much more irrational choice or "irresponsible" choice.

    I just think that offering side airbags will not hurt anybody (not performance in any significant way), au contraire, and its well worth the investment in R&D in the Ferraris of today that are driven by average drivers and everyday. The owners and their families deserve it IMO, for the price they pay, even Hyundai's offer them...



    No argument with anything you say Carlos.

    For what it is worth, I have far less of an issue with the lack of side airbags as I do with the way this car obviously sheaded in the cockpit area. Carbon composite should never do that. What's more, I have some serious doubts about the supposed high speed of this accident which makes this even worse.

    If I were to guess at the design goals, I would suspect that a lot of weight has been saved here. Either that, or it just isn't as competently built as the CGT was.

    By the way, I think the CGT's chassis was also made in Italy.

    Stephen

    Re: Very sad pics...

    I get the same impression as you Stephen.

    As to the GCT's chasis, you are correct, as far as I know the CGT's chasis was made by the same company that made the Enzo's, but the design is obviously different.

    Re: Very sad pics...



    ...
    Both chassis from Enzo and from the Porche Gt are made in Italy by the same company...
    The last 3 models from Fiat auto ,Punto,Croma,and the Alfa 159 have 5 star rating on the Encap crash tests ...and the 159 is the first car in the world to offer "leg"airbags to the driver and the passenger...
    And i think that every Ferrari was a safety cell, besides that i steel don't see what has side airbags to do with his accident, Hyundai offers side airbags??? well good for them since they need all the help they can get.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Good lord - what an impact

    IMO without knowing WHAT OBJECT WAS HIT DURING THE IMPACT noone can make any clean analysis of solidity of the Enzo chassis . Particularly on small country roads like the pictures suggest, apart from trees, I could think of many very nasty solid iron or concrete objects that could be hit and simply crack a carbon-fiber chassis. A CGT could look exactly the same in such case. Driver's speed must have been absurd for such a road, no doubt.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    That's terrible. Condolences to that poor driver's family.

    Like I said in a previous thread, if someone is driving too fast on the road and crashes, he/she knew the risks and just got taught a severe lesson. HOWEVER, in this case the driver was killed and there is NO WAY I would even think of saying he deserved to die.

    The Enzo is a car (a fantastic car, but still just a car) and is worthless compared to a man's life.

    It's difficult just looking at those pictures.

    Re: Very sad pics...

    Quote:
    Phil_996 said:
    Good lord - what an impact

    IMO without knowing WHAT OBJECT WAS HIT DURING THE IMPACT no one can make any clean analysis of solidity of the Enzo chassis . Particularly on small country roads like the pictures suggest, apart from trees, I could think of many very nasty solid iron or concrete objects that could be hit and simply crack a carbon-fiber chassis. A CGT could look exactly the same in such case. Driver's speed must have been absurd for such a road, no doubt.




    Re: Very sad pics...

    There but for the grace of God goes us.......RIP

     
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