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    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    JIM: Another - more serious - question:
    Whats that new avatar of yours about?



    Gee Dr, Phil, I could have called you a overbearing
    gasbag and the original Danish Troll Clown, but why
    state the obvious??

    Hooterair is a airline. Eminem doesnt fly on it.

    www.hooters.com


    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    pictures say it all:





    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    I agree that Michelin deserves to bare the full brunt. Its wierd how this has shaped up.

    I believe most American posters here blame Michelin for the fiasco and most ROW posters here blame Ferrari, FAI, F1.

    The fact is Michelin did not do its homework. Plain and simple. Bridgestone on the other hand owns Firestone which has been producing Indy racing tires since the first Indy 500.

    If Michelin knew they had a problem, then they should have instructed their cars to go slow in turn 13. We just had a race three weeks ago where the cars went through the equivalent of 800 turn 13s with no major problems at that same track.

    Simple fact is Michelin has ignored American racing and now has paid the price for it.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Nobody says Michelin was not innocent, Michelin was guilty of providing a tire that was not safe to race (and they will pay dearly), BUT Ecclestone/Whiters/Ferrari were responsible for not allowing a proper race to be held, they blocked any of the safety solutions and the drivers had NO choice. Thats the difference.

    The drivers could not go out with the tires they had at turn 13, who can tell a pack of 14 drivers to slow down at turn 13? how slow is slow? etc. each driver will push further turn 13 to be in front until an accident would happen that would stop the race. And changing turn 13 would not be fair to Bridgestone drivers IF they were fighting for points against Michelin drivers on the race, BUT the Michelin drivers offered to forgo the point of the race in favor of the Brisgestone drivers, thats the point, we would still have a race but only Bridgestone drivers would score points, Minardi and Jordan said yes, Ferrari still said no. Thats why we didn't have a race today.
    Michelin is at fault for an unsafe tire but the others were the ones that did not allow any solution other that Michelin drivers not go out and race.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    I agree, vtrader.

    Errecting a chicane and forefiting all Michilen teams would not have made the race much better, in my view. Sure everybody would be out there but they wouldn't really be racing. It probably would've been better than the 6-car circus we had, but not much better.

    The fact is Michelin made a mistake and any compromise laid out on the table would have been disappointing to the fans, only a postponment of some sort would have been fair but I guess that wasn't possible.

    Also, I don't think that Ferrari (and especially Schumacher) should get so much blame from this, it's really quite unfair and some of your remarks Dr. Phil were over the line.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    BUT the Michelin drivers offered to forgo the point of the race in favor of the Brisgestone drivers, thats the point, we would still have a race but only Bridgestone drivers would score points,



    I don't consider that a race. It would seperate the incentive and purpose for racing between Bridgestone and Michelin teams. The only difference between that scenario and what we actually had would be all the Michelin teams parading around. I doubt the US fans would consider that an exciting race.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    BUT the Michelin drivers offered to forgo the point of the race in favor of the Brisgestone drivers, thats the point, we would still have a race but only Bridgestone drivers would score points, Minardi and Jordan said yes, Ferrari still said no. Thats why we didn't have a race today.




    Carlos,

    I think that Ferrari was absolutely right to say no to an even worse mascarade. How could you imagine a race with 20 cars of which only 6 allowed to score points ? Also, imagine McLaren or Renault finishing at the first places with the Ferraris behind, or even worse, no Bridgestone cars finishing the race : who would have been declared winner of the GP ? Also, this wouldn't have been a very good consideration of the drivers' statute : driving the US GP and taking risk for life just for nothing ? Not really nice to them.

    Really, I don't think such a scenario would have been better than what we saw today.

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Michelin is at fault for an unsafe tire but the others were the ones that did not allow any solution other that Michelin drivers not go out and race.



    The rule is the rule and should be and stay the same for everyone. Any consensual solution would have been very detrimental to Bridgestone cars.

    The situation at the US GP is just the climax of a season where we have been faced many times to the results of the application of an extremely stupid set of rules in force this year. Remember the Bar-Hondas at the beginning of the season deciding not to finish a race only the be allowed to change engine for the next race, Kimi's accident last GP (tyre change not allowed) and after which Michelin already said (Dupasquier at French TV) they could face problems for the rest of the season: yesterday's fiasco was planned to happened since the begining of the season.

    Indeed, one has to remember that this years regulations have been defined with the unique objective to prevent F1 from another year of Ferrari domination. This makes also us better understand why Ferrari did not accept this week-end any exception to the rules.

    Then, we are talking about inflexible Ferrari's position. But Renault's position was not really more flexible listening to Flavio Briatore yesterday. The only thing is that Briatore expected to see the race cancelled which is not surprizing as his team and Alonso are currently having bad times. Alonso not driving so well under pressure, McLaren and Ferrari being better at the moment with more chances to win the US GP than Renault and Briatore's new boss pressure to get results on a "win or forget it" basis.

    From a general point of view, at this stage, I don't give a much longer life to Formula 1 which is just today a big piece of joke : spectators won't accept to pay about EUR 500 for such ridiculous GP week-ends any longer, as well as car makers, sponsors or suppliers involved (like Michelin) won't accept risks to see their image so seriously damaged any longer.

    My 2 cents.

    Cheers,

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Well said, Nicolas, I totally agree.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    You are right that Ferrari can stick to the rules and claim victory without any blame whatsoever.
    My objection to Ferrari and their victory, is the fact that they help the FIA making F1 even more money-focused than ever. I'm totally aware that this is big $ and not an amateur circus...but at some point there HAS to be at least a minute sense of moral, solidarity and pride in what they do.
    I mean, none of these guys (drivers, team bosses etc) are exactly needy, and from where I stand, had Ferrari (and the 2 other teams) not joined the race it would have shown the world that they put sportsmanship and crowdpleasing above money and points.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ferrari's win from a legal POV.
    And it's absolutely not Ferrari's fault that Michelin can't provide a good tire for the rest of the teams.
    But allowing yourself to race and claim victory in a race that 70% of the teams do not enter is an absolute joke.
    It doens't become Ferrari and it certainly does not help the teams get more power over the FIA or the $$$$$-focused Ecclestones of F1.

    I know people (including MS himself) say that some teams didn't abide by the collective decision to drive slowly during a race a couple of years ago when an official got killed, but we are not talking about one or two teams going their own way. We are talking about an unprecedented 70%!!!!

    F1 is about money, sponsors and points - sure it is.
    But it's also about racing, excitement, battles between the best of the best and sportsmanship.
    If you leave out the latter three you have nothing.
    If Ferrari had thought twice and put the interest of the crowd and Formula One in general above their own greed for points, they would have withdrawn from the race like the others and not paraded around, displaying their own lack of understanding of the situation.

    This is what Schumi said during the press conference:
    Q: (Curt Cavin - Indianapolis Star) As a sportsman, surely this must be the most hollow of victories?
    MS: I have won 84 races. I can afford to have one strange one

    A pretty arrogant attitude, and knowing him this win won't bother him a bit should he win the championship.
    I guess he wouldn't let silly little things like sportsmanship and pride get in the way of the championship.

    And that, gentlemen, is the reason why I find the Ferrari F1 team absolutely ridiculous and low.

    Paul Stoddart comment

    "I only stayed out there because the Jordan team did not keep their promise. They promised in the morning meeting they would not race if there was not a chicane placed in Turn 13," commented a furious Paul Stoddart. "It is incredible and unbelievable that the FIA didn't want to come to a decent agreement and thus solution with the Michelin runners. This is terrible for the sport. The FIA doesn't give a sh*t about the sport itself, they only worry about their political game."

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    I think any team in the same position would've done the same. Sportsmanship is one thing but no team is going to give up 1st and 2nd place drivers and constructors championship points when their corporate backers (BMW, Benz etc.) have obvious vested interets. I don't see this as action were only the "low" Ferrari would've taken.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    I dont know if only Ferrari would have done this. That's hard to say.
    I only know that in this case they DID.
    And it does absolutely nothing for F1, the teams, the car makers, the sponsors or the crowd.
    Sure, they gained 18 points but they also lost every single ounce of respect the other teams and many, many fans had for them.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    You wouldn't cash me dead in a car from a company with this sucky moral.
    Yuck!!!



    Jees, I need to slow down when I write..."cash me dead..."?? LOL!

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    As horrible as the spectacle (and the race) was today, I still think all the fault rests with Michelin - not Bernie and not the track. They should be able to make a tire that will work there and the teams that use them shouldn't be given any favors because they were supplied with faulty tires.

    A mobile chicane would not be fair to the teams who prepared their tires and cars to work with the original track layout.

    I hated the race, but I really fault Michelin here - they should be ashamed (as well as the American fans who threw debris on the track).



    Missed the race, was leaving Texas at the time!
    I am not a hardcore F1 fan, I watch it from time to time. I am more of a sports fan in general and I couldn't agree more with Grant.
    This is 100% Michelin's fault.
    Why should those who are 100% ready for the race make concession because the competitor isn't.
    Very sad for the fans, and this is probably and rightfully the end of F1 in the US, but so be it.
    Next time, they should be ready sooner.
    I am no pro in tyres etc. but how come Michelin's been fine on that same exact track in the previous seasons and not this year, is their 05 tyre THAT different?
    Also, they should have known more than 48 hours in advance.
    Is it sad for the public but it's life, Ferrari didn't win those points the noble way but they deserved them nonetheless.
    When in Tennis, a player quits after 30 min of play, the public is annoyed but I dont' recall a single match being rescheduled, the other player wins.
    When a football or rugby team does not have most of their best players available, they don't reschedule, the other team wants the game to go through.
    I know it's a bit different here, since it's the fault of a supplier, and that Ferrari and the other two teams can be considered not noble, not sporty in spirit.
    I personally condemn their behaviour, although it's not the first time Ferrari shows us that sport spirit is the least of their concern (re that race where Barichello had to move over to let schumi get the maximum points!).
    It's a bit similar here, it's all about the points really.
    I know it's unlikely, but let's say, Ferrari wins the championship at the end of the year by less than three points over Merc and renault, I bet you not a single Tifosi will talk about the US GP!

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    F1 is about money, sponsors and points - sure it is.
    But it's also about racing, excitement, battles between the best of the best and sportsmanship.
    If you leave out the latter three you have nothing.




    Dr. Phil,

    If you give a careful look at the past seasons of Formula 1, you will clearly see that F1 is exclusively about money, sponsors and points. It has nothing more to do with racing, excitment and sport.

    The FIA and Ecclestone are just trying to keep their milk cow alive. To keep the focus on F1, they killed almost all other car racing disciplines over the past years (DTM, WRC, GT and Tourism, 24 hours races, etc.).

    This season, they probably have reached the limits.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    to DR phil

    who said the german are good sportman?
    we know it from football long time ago, they creative the dive for penalty . this is well known from the world cup

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    bazza said:
    to DR phil

    who said the german are good sportman?
    we know it from football long time ago, they creative the dive for penalty . this is well known from the world cup



    and the English couldn't lose?

    Michelin made the big mistake!

    Everybody was laughing, when Schumacher's tires blow up in Barcelona GP?

    Sorry, but the FIA (Charly Whiting and Max Mosley) made this incredible decision, not Ferrari or Michael Schumacher!
    It's not a question of pride!

    Re: BOOOOO!!!! F1 GP USA

    Quote:
    I guess this is the only way Ferrari can win a race.---that the really good drivers stay in the pits.
    What a F*CKING JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



    your ferrari-bashing gets really annoying.

    Re: BOOOOO!!!! F1 GP USA

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    your ferrari-bashing gets really annoying.



    Thank you

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    Nico997 said:
    Dr. Phil,
    If you give a careful look at the past seasons of Formula 1, you will clearly see that F1 is exclusively about money, sponsors and points. It has nothing more to do with racing, excitment and sport.

    The FIA and Ecclestone are just trying to keep their milk cow alive. To keep the focus on F1, they killed almost all other car racing disciplines over the past years (DTM, WRC, GT and Tourism, 24 hours races, etc.).

    This season, they probably have reached the limits.



    You're absolutely right.
    I may actually be living in a fairytale world where there is still room for those values.
    Like you said...the cup is full now.
    Forget sportsmanship for a minute. Even from a business point of view what happened Sunday was simply bad.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    this is so simple , when accident happen on turn 13 last year , FXXK.I.A should improve the safety on the circuit .

    trust me ! after yesterday incident that show how fia fall out with all the teams!!!

    and i heard they will have penalty cause of not take part of the race yesterday!?

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Quote:
    bazza said:
    this is so simple , when accident happen on turn 13 last year , FXXK.I.A should improve the safety on the circuit .

    trust me ! after yesterday incident that show how fia fall out with all the teams!!!

    and i heard they will have penalty cause of not take part of the race yesterday!?



    FYI>>>For this years F1 GP, they installed the best, most technically advance safety barriers of any track in the world. Which is why when Michael S hit the wall at practice this year he could get out of his car and walk away, unlike last year where he ended up on a stretcher.

    What is it with some of these dainty F1 drivers and their inability to drive well on the worlds fastest track?
    Other racers do 200mph all the time there and dont crash!!!!

    F1, The "Pinnacle of Motorsports"?? the "Technology Leaders"??

    More like a Pathetic Parade of Perfumed and Pompous Princes. Michelin maybe should rename their racing tyres. Perhaps to Surrender, Appeasement or Moto Collaborator would be appropriate.

    F1 has become desperately sad, stuck up and incompetently managed. They should stay home and crash into each other on EU approved mini kart tracks, that way they can't cheat fans, sponsors and track owners.

    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    Article from local website:

    Indianapolis - "Bullshit, bullshit!" That's what disillusioned and angry fans were shouting as Michael Schumacher approached the US GP podium on Sunday to collect his trophy.

    He and second-placed team mate Rubens Barrichello barely had time to take their awards and shake some sparkling win before scuttling back behind the hoardings.

    Earlier, spectators had been throwing beer cans and bottles on to the track.

    It was the 2004 World champion's first win in eight months but a hollow one with only six cars racing and only Brazilian team mate Barrichello with any chance of beating him

    "I would have wished for normal circumstances," Schumacher said after seven of the 10 teams pulled out because of concerns about the safety of their Michelin tyres.

    "I think it was a minority," he said of the fans who jeered and whistled, their hostility directed as much against Formula 1 management as anything else.

    "If you look even at the podium, yes there were people booing but a lot more yelling and a lot of Ferrari supporters."

    The German expressed little sympathy for Michelin's plight, saying that Ferrari's partners Bridgestone had erred on the side of caution.

    "We have had a tyre which is quicker. We didn't use that because we knew what was going to face us here," he said. "I'm not saying the others purposely chose something wrong but, whatever it is, it's their problem.

    "I think everybody learned from what happened today and everybody will make sure that this doesn't happen again because the penalty is very big to everybody, to the fans, to the teams who didn't race

    "Nobody liked that."

    Sunday's win was Schumacher's fourth at Indianapolis and his third in a row at the circuit. It was also the 100th for a car produced under the direction of designer Rory Byrne.

    While fans and commentators screamed farce and fiasco, Ferrari boss Jean Todt was determined to put the afternoon's events into a more sporting context.

    "In boxing terms, we and Bridgestone won by a technical knockout," he said.

    "I was very surprised by the situation but would prefer not to comment on things that are not directly my responsibility."


    Re: SCHUMACHER WINS !

    I think some you mentioned that the rules should be compromised or adding the chicane if all the Michelin runners agreed to take no points. Then there shouldn't be any issues right? But this would still be unfair to Ferrari (or other Bridgestone runners) because the Michelin runners could get aggressive around the Ferraris and risk get taken out. Or what if so a Ferrari is behind a Micheline shod car and the tire blows at turn 13 taking out car the behind? So it is easy to understand that Ferrari refused to make any compromises from their perspective as well.

    Send in the lawyers.....

    Here we go again. The circus continues

    They will probably sanction or penalize the 7 teams...who then in return boycots or does something of that nature...followed by sanctions again etc etc.. hehehee. This is starting to get funny.

    http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3209/740.html

    Re: Send in the lawyers.....

    To Dr Phil,
    lets take your little "sportsmanship" line and apply it to another sport ie cycling and the Tour de France.

    Let Lance Armstrong and Trek be Ferrari\Schumacher
    Let Jan Ulrich,Ivan Basso etc and there respected bicycle manufactures be Alonso,Kimi\Renault,Mclaren etc

    Lets say the race enters the mountain stages and to the dismay of Jan and Ivan etc and there respected Bicycle manufactures,they find the gears supplied to them are not suitable to the stage ie they too big and impossible to ride.

    The gear company appeals to have the stage cancelled or have all uphills excluded,because they fear a cyclist may exert himself too much and burst a blood vessel,resulting in death.

    Are you saying Lance ie Schumacher,should not ride and if he did and won,is a poor sportsman?All because a rival component didnt do there homework.

    Re: Send in the lawyers.....

    I'm surprised that the sponsors aren't or didn't put more pressure on the Michelin teams to race. After all it is their money that enables them to race in the first place.

    Re: Michelin teams summoned by FIA

    Michelin teams summoned by FIA

    The FIA has ordered the seven Michelin teams to appear at a hearing of its World Motor Sport Council on Wednesday June 29 following their controversial withdrawal from the US Grand Prix.

    The summons follows a statement issued by Formula One racing's governing body earlier on Monday, in which it outlines its position on Michelin's decision to pull out of the race. The statement reads:

    "Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

    "At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.

    "The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams' lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that "tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances".

    "A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally - from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.

    "The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.

    "What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.

    "It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules."

    http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3209/740.html


    So the Michelin teams do their warm up lap and returned to the pits like spoiled prissy jerks.

    So Ferrari wins because the other teams are run by idiots.

    I think that Schumachers persona is more parabellum than that of gracious bon vivant sporteman, but his smugness about the races outcome is totally justified in this case.

    Hats off to Ferrari for not being little whiners at Indy!



    Re: Send in the lawyers.....

    Quote:
    Marco 430 said:
    To Dr Phil,
    lets take your little "sportsmanship" line and apply it to another sport ie cycling and the Tour de France.

    Let Lance Armstrong and Trek be Ferrari\Schumacher
    Let Jan Ulrich,Ivan Basso etc and there respected bicycle manufactures be Alonso,Kimi\Renault,Mclaren etc

    Lets say the race enters the mountain stages and to the dismay of Jan and Ivan etc and there respected Bicycle manufactures,they find the gears supplied to them are not suitable to the stage ie they too big and impossible to ride.

    The gear company appeals to have the stage cancelled or have all uphills excluded,because they fear a cyclist may exert himself too much and burst a blood vessel,resulting in death.

    Are you saying Lance ie Schumacher,should not ride and if he did and won,is a poor sportsman?All because a rival component didnt do there homework.



    In Tour de France that would never happen..unless several teams at the same time ran out of illegal drugs
    I hear what you are saying (altho the comparison is a bit of a stretch), but ask yourself this: If 70% of all riders in the Tour refused to ride because the company providing the carbon/kevlar/alloy for the frames warned them that the frames might break during decent of the mountain stage...would you blame them for not running? And would you find it sportsmanlike for the remaining 30% to ride and score easy points?

    Like I've said before: This is a question of moral. Not law.
    Ferrari did nothing wrong from a technical standpoint.
    I happen to think they FUBAREd big time on the sportsman issue.

    Every team is dependant on the other teams simply to make the F1 championship make sense. At the end of the day it's only interesting to be the champ of anything, if your competitors are tough and skilled.
    Any amateur could have done what Ferrari & Co did this sunday.
    A real skilled driver with pride would have said "No, thanks." A true champ is one that is able to beat the competition - not someone performing walkovers.

    I believe Shumi is the kind of driver that would have no problem driving the remaining (what?) 10 races alone, should every other driver opt out.
    And he would be shaking that champaign bottle vigorously, too!
    Poor sod.

    My 2 cents

    Re: Lawyers Sent In !

    FIA, Michelin and The F1 Teams to end up as wait staff for Kentucky trailer park people. Hey Kimi! Alonso! Get down to the creek and fetch another six pack of Bud, then wax the Trans Am! hehehe

    Indiana, borders on Kentucky. Kentucky is best known for Preachers, Bourbon and Lawyers. The state never even could make up its mind during our civil war, so they took turns shooting and sueing everyone until they left.

    The convoy of lawyers racing into Indianapolis from Kentucky will boggle even Bernie himself.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050620/SPORTS0103/50620006/0/NEWS01

    "The alleged 'race' participated by just three teams did not constitute a true grand prix race under FIA and Formula One rules in that the race was started with an insufficient number of participants," the FIRST lawsuit reads.

     
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