Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    boytronic said:
    Is it just me, or is there NO material evidence that Porsche has made any claim apart from this one link from a 3rd party website:

    http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/motori...at_nurburgring/

    I cannot find anything on Porsche's official website - so where is this "official" claim?!



    Exactly. This was said at an interview with a newspaper motoring section publication. Havinf said that, this guy is the product chief for 911...

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    I don't think Porsche is going to put it on a billboard, but the leak during the interview is damning enough on it's own thanks to the speed and expanse of the internet.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Fritz thanks for the link. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between. However, I am also convinced that the driver and tires make a world of difference and as a result, ALL Ring times should be questioned.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Nissan needs to start entering their stock car in more races to quiet criticism of their GTR. Didn't it do reasonable well at some Targa in Australia or something.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Nissan did have one press car at the One Lap of America. At my home track it (driven by a One Lap veteran Tony Snow) was some ~40 seconds per lap off my own pace in a 997tt

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Quote:
    SadoTorque said:
    Whoever made this statement about the GTR, better be someone of importance and if so, not blowing wind up our skirts, because if the Marketing director at Porsche thought that this might be a clever way to boost sale is going to get a [beep] can of trouble if this is not substantiated through the main car press. The car community will bury Porsche if this ends up being just a way to stroke Porsche owner's egos. I want Porsche to make better car and not excuses. When I think of Porsches, I think of no equal in racing pedigree. Not bitchy Germans who don't know how to turn lemons into lemonade.



    I wish Porsche spent this much time on their own R&D so they wouldn't have to worry about this kind of crap to begin with.

    Stop giving us fluff disguised in acronyms and get back to building dominant cars!



    They already did. Just look at the GT2 and the 997FL. These are top performers again. I am confident that the 997TT FL will be top-of-the-league again as well

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Nidge said:
    Now that Porsche has recognised Nissan they have a couple of further options. Bring the 911 price down to more realistic price per performance levels or provide the Cayman with the power it deserves.



    Nidge, you give your occupation as business owner.

    Would you be inclined to bring the price of the products or services your business provides down to the same levels as a competitor who desperately needs to improve his image and is prepared to offer them at loss-leader prices to achieve this aim? Even if you yourself were already working at full capacity?

    For your own sake, think about it before you answer.



    Hello Fritz, you are quite correct when you suggest that we would not disrupt our business margins should we find ourselves producing product to maximum capacity. I am not too sure however that this statement applies to Porsche. There is a strong possibility that production of the 911, Cayman and Boxster range will diminish in the near future. Porsche sales for the said line up are suggested to be down in the UK. Internationally the 911 is down around 16% (although I would concede that this is during a modal change over) Boxster Ceyman down by the same %.It would appear that Porsche sales are being propped up by the Cayenne.
    Conversely if it were only one competitor that was trying to undermine margins via the introduction of a limited supply loss leader product, then again you correctly denote that one would be considered foolish if you adjusted product pricing to compensate. But I believe that there is much choice now in the Porsche arena with products offering similar performance and quality. People are only happy to pay a premium (as long as their discretionary income allows) if they are getting a recognisable difference in value. Now that Porsche is suffering from much lower second hand values the lower ownership costs rational has also been blown away. Therefore right now if my business suffered from a similar plight then yes I would engineer greater performance into the product, take a little margin hit and differentiate myself further from my competitors. Porsche has a great brand built on a reputation for unequalled performance. Whilst in times of economic wealth value for money is less of a consideration, I think that in today's turbulent times offering loyal customers a little extra for their money would be prudent.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Nidge said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Nidge said:
    Now that Porsche has recognised Nissan they have a couple of further options. Bring the 911 price down to more realistic price per performance levels or provide the Cayman with the power it deserves.



    Nidge, you give your occupation as business owner.

    Would you be inclined to bring the price of the products or services your business provides down to the same levels as a competitor who desperately needs to improve his image and is prepared to offer them at loss-leader prices to achieve this aim? Even if you yourself were already working at full capacity?

    For your own sake, think about it before you answer.



    Hello Fritz, you are quite correct when you suggest that we would not disrupt our business margins should we find ourselves producing product to maximum capacity. I am not too sure however that this statement applies to Porsche. There is a strong possibility that production of the 911, Cayman and Boxster range will diminish in the near future. Porsche sales for the said line up are suggested to be down in the UK. Internationally the 911 is down around 16% (although I would concede that this is during a modal change over) Boxster Ceyman down by the same %.It would appear that Porsche sales are being propped up by the Cayenne.
    Conversely if it were only one competitor that was trying to undermine margins via the introduction of a limited supply loss leader product, then again you correctly denote that one would be considered foolish if you adjusted product pricing to compensate. But I believe that there is much choice now in the Porsche arena with products offering similar performance and quality. People are only happy to pay a premium (as long as their discretionary income allows) if they are getting a recognisable difference in value. Now that Porsche is suffering from much lower second hand values the lower ownership costs rational has also been blown away. Therefore right now if my business suffered from a similar plight then yes I would engineer greater performance into the product, take a little margin hit and differentiate myself further from my competitors. Porsche has a great brand built on a reputation for unequalled performance. Whilst in times of economic wealth value for money is less of a consideration, I think that in today's turbulent times offering loyal customers a little extra for their money would be prudent.



    Hey, you didn't have to throw a marketing economics text-book at me!

    Stick around rennteam and you'll see that this discussion crops up in slightly different reincarnations every couple of weeks.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Nidge said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Nidge said:
    Now that Porsche has recognised Nissan they have a couple of further options. Bring the 911 price down to more realistic price per performance levels or provide the Cayman with the power it deserves.



    Nidge, you give your occupation as business owner.

    Would you be inclined to bring the price of the products or services your business provides down to the same levels as a competitor who desperately needs to improve his image and is prepared to offer them at loss-leader prices to achieve this aim? Even if you yourself were already working at full capacity?

    For your own sake, think about it before you answer.



    Hello Fritz, you are quite correct when you suggest that we would not disrupt our business margins should we find ourselves producing product to maximum capacity. I am not too sure however that this statement applies to Porsche. There is a strong possibility that production of the 911, Cayman and Boxster range will diminish in the near future. Porsche sales for the said line up are suggested to be down in the UK. Internationally the 911 is down around 16% (although I would concede that this is during a modal change over) Boxster Ceyman down by the same %.It would appear that Porsche sales are being propped up by the Cayenne.
    Conversely if it were only one competitor that was trying to undermine margins via the introduction of a limited supply loss leader product, then again you correctly denote that one would be considered foolish if you adjusted product pricing to compensate. But I believe that there is much choice now in the Porsche arena with products offering similar performance and quality. People are only happy to pay a premium (as long as their discretionary income allows) if they are getting a recognisable difference in value. Now that Porsche is suffering from much lower second hand values the lower ownership costs rational has also been blown away. Therefore right now if my business suffered from a similar plight then yes I would engineer greater performance into the product, take a little margin hit and differentiate myself further from my competitors. Porsche has a great brand built on a reputation for unequalled performance. Whilst in times of economic wealth value for money is less of a consideration, I think that in today's turbulent times offering loyal customers a little extra for their money would be prudent.



    +1

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    as much as I love Porsche, it's pretty pathetic and very "cry-baby-like" of them... just go ahead and increase that turbo boost up to where it should be!

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Marwan Arakji said:
    as much as I love Porsche, it's pretty pathetic and very "cry-baby-like" of them... just go ahead and increase that turbo boost up to where it should be!



    The boost isn't the problem. The 997TT is faster in a straight line than the GT-R. It's in the corners that it has problems. Nissan really did well with its AWD drivetrain (much better than Porsche).

    However, a question presents itself: Is it really as fast as they claim it to be? 7:29 seems way off, but somewhere under 7:40 does seem believable.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    Marwan Arakji said:
    as much as I love Porsche, it's pretty pathetic and very "cry-baby-like" of them... just go ahead and increase that turbo boost up to where it should be!



    The boost isn't the problem. The 997TT is faster in a straight line than the GT-R. It's in the corners that it has problems. Nissan really did well with its AWD drivetrain (much better than Porsche).

    However, a question presents itself: Is it really as fast as they claim it to be? 7:29 seems way off, but somewhere under 7:40 does seem believable.



    I suggest we stick with what we know from independent tests conducted so far and wait for SA to produce the "official" Ring time (assuming HvS is willing and able to drive the GTR at its true limit).

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Marwan Arakji said:
    as much as I love Porsche, it's pretty pathetic and very "cry-baby-like" of them... just go ahead and increase that turbo boost up to where it should be!



    I think they were actually doing what we wanted them to do. Go get the "new standard" and update the TT and the GT2 to beat it but, much to their surprise, they didnt need to as much as they thought

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Like crash said,

    GTR's advanced AWD + DCT which makes the car so easy to drive fast.

    I did test drive one yesterday and it wasn't anywhere as fast as my GT2, just like the previous models(32,33,34) they all lack 911's top end

    Brakes are

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Guys,

    I don't want to add some bad comments about GT-R, and to be honest I'm a 100% Porsche fan.
    I own a 997 GT3 and it is hard to say, but for 40 000 euro less, you can have a better competitive car : GT-R.

    It is not as fast as a GT2, for sure , but GUYS , this car is costing 2,5 times less !!

    I don't like aesthetic and I think the re-sale value could be an issue, but everybody cqn recognize that Nissan made a nice 75 000 euro piece!

    I will be ashamed to be smoked by a nissan in the future , but that's life .....

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    thierry said:
    Guys,

    I don't want to add some bad comments about GT-R, and to be honest I'm a 100% Porsche fan.
    I own a 997 GT3 and it is hard to say, but for 40 000 euro less, you can have a better competitive car : GT-R.

    It is not as fast as a GT2, for sure , but GUYS , this car is costing 2,5 times less !!

    I don't like aesthetic and I think the re-sale value could be an issue, but everybody cqn recognize that Nissan made a nice 75 000 euro piece!

    I will be ashamed to be smoked by a nissan in the future , but that's life .....



    You'll get smoked for how long before the GTR fall apart?

    Lets face it, Nissan played the marketing game and was succesful at this game. But for the car is another story.

    The nissan is a 2/3 lap wonder, then it starts to chew up the whole car.

    One of the last test i've seen, the one with bruno senna, says it all for me. During that test the GTR was less than .5 sec. quicker than the turbo on the wet. Senna conclude that it is due to the gear box.

    Everybody says that the chassis of the turbo is flawed, whereas the nissan is a wonder, and yet on the wet (where the chassis play the most important role) with same driver the result show that the nissan has bearly the advantage for a car thzt has been develop for 5y (benchmark on the turbo to be a turbo killer) and yet nissan had to cheat to be up the par.

    So come on guys, I may be a porsche fan and do own a 997 turbo but still thinking the GTR walks all over on the turbo is to say the least funny and ridiculous.

    It is funny that some people wants the GTR to be faster than porsche especially the turbo rather than other brand.

    Put same tires on both cars, same driver, same track, and same day then do 15 laps on production cars then put both cars on a dyno and finally you'll have a good comparaison.

    The GTR will always be a nissan, porsche will remain the image it has earned during many years. I own a 911 2.7 RS of 1973, and you would not believe how good ( handling, reliability and all other quality those have) porsche were already more than 30y ago. I believe porsche did not lost their focus but other car manufacturer invested enough money to catch up, but some have to cheat to make sure they do the magazine head lines. Keep your GTR for more than 35 years... yuo'll have a collector

    to all porsche fan and nissan ones.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    BTW, didn't Nissan pull a similar stunt with the original Nissan Skyline back in the day? they publicised a NBR lap time, and turns out they had used slicks on the car:x Its true when they say, history repeats it self and humans seem to be the only animal that trips on the same stone twice



    I'm a little late to the party here ... But YES, Nissan claimed the R34 GTR was the first stock-standard production vehicle to break the 8:00 minute barrier (remember those times?)

    In the end, it was revealed that they used slicks (or possibly used shaved tyres.)

    Of course, the problem then was (as now) how a 1600kg car with 280ps could achieve such a time.

    Not to take away from the new GT-R (great car, great bang for buck) but history has a habit of repeating itself with this company. It just diminishes it's image in the eyes of true sports car ethustiasts.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Do Nissan have any history of racing or producing high performance sports cars - like Porsche do - apart from this "Skyline" model?

    I'm just wondering how "experienced" they are compared to Porsche.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    I would've thought that we would have the GTR bug out of the system by now. Let's go talk about something else, shall we?

    The thing is, isn't this all a bit irrelevant? Let's just grant Nissan the big credit it is due for making such a wonderful car and stay loyal to the car we have picked for our personal reasons.Let the jap car fans have an icon of their own, the GTR is certainly deserving it.

    From what I've read about the Nissan's technology and the way it's put together, it would make many manufacturers green with envy. In this sense we can only look forward to what Porsche will have as an answer in the future.

    Are we so insecure that we let any new car with similar performance ruin our day? A Porsche will stay a Porsche, it's all in your head.

    You can go to any twisty circuit with any Porsche and be beaten by the flying-tube brigade (Atom, Caterham, etc), but will it make your car any worse? You can be overtaken on the Autobahn by a Veyron going at half-throttle, so what. Wave to him and wish him luck.

    My point is, our cars are great as they are, it is cars like the Nissan that our looking up to them, not the other way around.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    boytronic said:
    Do Nissan have any history of racing or producing high performance sports cars - like Porsche do - apart from this "Skyline" model?

    I'm just wondering how "experienced" they are compared to Porsche.



    Well, Nissan's excellent GTP car of the late 80's was the first to beat Porsche's 962 in the IMSA GT class. The Nissan GTP Turbo did quite well in the series.

    It also won the constuctor's championship in 1989 and 1990. It was based on the 300ZX and TT road cars, which were quite a car in their day.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    in the attached article it is claimed that M PS Cups are the standard road tyre for the GT2 and TT. I've not seen any TT's come with PS Cups as standard. Cups are semi-slicks - the same tyre that Nissan is accused of using.

    Agreed - that math never added, but it still doesn't for me. Porsche better start pulling their finger out, forget giving us improvments in a piecemeal fashion to maximise profit and marketing spin, and start producing fast machines!

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    Jay said:
    Porsche better start producing fast machines!



    If someone thinks that Porsches are not fast,this person is a poor driver

    In most cases performing above their engine size/HP.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    on DR

    " Hold on to your handbags -Porsche has announced that it now understands how the Nissan GT-R, with less power than a GT2 and 200kg tubbier, manages to lap the Nordschleife quicker than the fastest Porsche currently in production.

    According to an interview on carsguide.com.au, August Achleitner, the boss of the regular 997 programme, the advantage was down to, er, rubber.

    Now this is the age-old problem with Nurburgring lap-times. There is no parity, and until Euro NCAP comes-up with a standardised Nurburgring-test, there is unlikely to be a level playing field. The speed of the circuit itself seems to change on an hourly basis, so when manufacturers begin to extract lap times that will form the basis of a global media campaign, it's not surprising that the list of 'variables' becomes extremely long -as they attempt to perfect their message.

    Earlier this year, Nissan claimed a standard GT-R lapped the old circuit in 7min 29sec, and then posted a rather excellent video of Toshio Suzuki driving at some lick. Around this time, Porsche announced that Walter Rohrl had achieved 7min 32sec in a GT2 -but on the revised 997 launch earlier this summer, I struggled to get anyone from the company to talk on-the-record about the fact that a heavy Nissan was faster around Porsche's home test track than its own scud-missile. This was before a Corvette ZR1 popped-in a 7min 22sec effort, but I don't think anyone doubts the potential of a 600bhp plus, plastic bodied 2 seater. The GT-R's time, however, has industry chins wagging.

    Well, now Herr Achleitner has piped up with some new evidence. Apparently Porsche recently took a GT-R, a Turbo and a GT2 to the 'Ring and whereas it managed to get very close to the claimed times for its own cars (7min38 and 7min34 respectively) the best its test driver could achieve in a showroom spec GT-R was a 7min 54sec. That's 25sec slower than the claimed time.

    Now before we consider what this might tell us about the state of Nissan's definition of 'standard' or for that matter Porsche's paranoia, we should probably ask a more pertinent, general question. Namely, does anyone really give a [beep]? I mean once you learn a bit about the place, and what a very, very fast lap requires, you quickly begin to understand that these are among the most random markers of absolute performance to have been perpetuated since the advent of the 0-60mph time. Yes, they give you a very good indication of the car's complete performance potential, but the scope for naughty 'infringements' and the variability of drivers means they must be taken with a pinch of salt.

    The Nissan deserves some manner of defence though. It is not possible to make any kind of accurate estimation of its actual performance by looking at its bare numbers, as our Silverstone lap on DR TV proves. Numbers mean nothing, it's the net available and useable performance that counts and, plucking some completely arbitrary figures out of the ether by way of example, if a GT2 can deploy 75 percent of its potential over a given lap, the figure for the GT-R must be in the 90s. Furthermore, the 'Ring isn't especially hard on brakes, and that's the one area in which -over multiple laps- the GT-R eventually comes unstuck "


    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating



    http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=57410&vf=12

    Ever heard of a thief saying I did steal ?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    BiTurbo said:


    http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=57410&vf=12

    Ever heard of a thief saying I did steal ?



    IMO the secret weapon of the GT-R is this Tochio Suzuki guy, who apparently is a superman among drivers.

    Nissan should arrange to alternately lend him to GT-R buyers, so as for them to realise their dream.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Surely the only way to settle this is for Nissan to buy a 997 Turbo/GT3 and get Mr. Suzuki to race it round a track?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    IMO the secret weapon of the GT-R is this Tochio Suzuki guy, who apparently is a superman among drivers.

    Nissan should arrange to alternately lend him to GT-R buyers, so as for them to realise their dream.


    Well, he didn't light any fires in Formula 1. He just got to drive 2 races as stand-in for Philippe Alliot in 1993.
    You'll have to goolgle him as ToShio Suzuki to find information on his record back then, as he apperently had not yet learned to write the westernised version of his name correctly.

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    boytronic said:
    Surely the only way to settle this is for Nissan to buy a 997 Turbo/GT3 and get Mr. Suzuki to race it round a track?



    You think they haven't already benchmarked a 997 Turbo?

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    Quote:
    boytronic said:
    Surely the only way to settle this is for Nissan to buy a 997 Turbo/GT3 and get Mr. Suzuki to race it round a track?



    IMO independent drivers around Nurburgring (where the controversy began) in certified standard spec showroom cars.

    And since there is the question of reliability, they could race for 24 hours non stop!

    Re: Porsche accueses Nissan of cheating

    I would like to see a five-lap race around the Ring between the fastest production cars with factory-selected racing drivers who can extract the car's ultimate performance.
    Cars must be certified stock by an independent authority.
    Cars start at one-minute intervals to avoid incidents.
    These are street cars so five laps is sufficient.

    The results would be very interesting.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 3/4/24 2:37 PM
    Enmanuel
    604517 1769
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 2/19/24 11:51 PM
    Wonderbar
    384303 564
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    252635 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 2/22/24 5:12 PM
    GT-Boy
    215194 291
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    46631 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/4/24 9:03 AM
    Der-Schwabe
    2449 26
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    844488 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    735325 3868
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 4/6/23 7:43 AM
    crayphile
    445610 1276
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    372542 1526
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    356901 797
    Porsche GT4RS 2/22/24 5:16 AM
    tso
    344519 1424
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    340855 2401
    Lambo Aventador and SV 3/30/23 1:59 PM
    CGX car nut
    277301 724
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 4/21/23 8:09 AM
    the-missile
    262460 550
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 3/1/24 4:20 PM
    blueflame
    259602 651
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    235483 812
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    217168 488
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    211706 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    161313 101
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    140992 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    111943 144
    AMG Bought a muscle car... 3/26/23 3:31 PM
    WhoopsyM
    109751 303
    Ferrari [2022] Ferrari Purosangue (SUV) 4/15/23 5:20 AM
    watt
    105947 141
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    96479 685
    Others Valkyrie final design? 4/28/23 2:45 AM
    Rossi
    95935 219
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    93722 303
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/4/24 7:11 AM
    GnilM
    77635 230
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    73927 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    51104 314
    133 items found, displaying 1 to 30.