Crown

Sport Auto driver is far away from the capability of a factory driver - nor is he a good VLN driver according to people who drive the same series with him .....- so the SA time will always be way over a factory car not just because of tires....

However, it's pointless as no-one with less than a couple of hundred laps will be even coming close to those times but the real heros are the ones having superhairy balls doing  5:01........

nberry:

Grant, these test do not related to us in any way. None of us can get to maximum capability driving these cars. So the question is what is the car I am buying capable of? As far as I am concerned, magazine drivers do not provide us the information. Only the car manufacturers with their “official” times do. 

I buy TV’s, smart phones and computers which I use to less than half of their capability but I still buy them. A car is no different. With all these products I rely on the manufacturers(not magazines)to tell me what they are capable of. 

The problem is that each manufacturer will do the ring lap in their own way, if you know what I mean, and a lap time is not an empirical reproducible value, so the can claim what ever they like that they cannot be help accountable for false advertising or somthing like that, like they would if they would exagerate horsepower or milage. So you cannot trust manufacturer claims in regards to ring times, and we have seen many tricks they have used to polish their times.

Magazine tests like SA are more useful because they use the same methodology for all the cars so the test has less variables distorting the result. And while the times the SA drivers can achieve will not match the factory drivers, that is irrelevant, for the lap times only have value in relation to the other cars and not in absolute terms. So what is of value is not the absolute lap time, that tells you nothing about the car if you cant compare that value, what is important is that the lap time is comparable to other car's lap times, and its the difference in lap time that gives you any information. And magazine tests are much more comparable to tests of the same magazine that manufacturer claims with each other.

Even then, you cannot blindly trust magazine tests, its an estimate taken with a grain of salt, but still much better than manufacturer claims.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Magazines also just want to sell - I recall the Mercedes AMG GT-R hype and Performante where it was all about NBR times and only afterwards we find out which tire they used - they also like to compare today's times achieved against previous "supercars" and write how much faster this car is than XYZ - a 2-3 year old time (best example 918) - knowing for sure that the same car retested with today's tires would also improve their time or even beat the car in comparison. It's all marketing BS....

MKSGR:

KresoF1:

R version AFAIK. 

Sportauto needs to show lap times with the tire available to customers as well. Testing this „special“ tire only would just contribute to the erosion of credibility 

Actually, they should test all cars on standard tires, so they get the best comparison.

I don't care about Nordschleife times anymore, especially since they started this tire "game". Also, since I don't really track my cars anymore, the emotional part of the car is more important to me. 

It is however difficult for potential customers to decide on a car without a possibility of comparison and unfortunately, the Nordschleife track time has become a very important marketing tool for manufacturers. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

Carlos from Spain:

Magazine tests like SA are more useful because they use the same methodology for all the cars so the test has less variables distorting the result. And while the times the SA drivers can achieve will not match the factory drivers, that is irrelevant, for the lap times only have value in relation to the other cars and not in absolute terms. So what is of value is not the absolute lap time, that tells you nothing about the car if you cant compare that value, what is important is that the lap time is comparable to other car's lap times, and its the difference in lap time that gives you any information. And magazine tests are much more comparable to tests of the same magazine that manufacturer claims with each other.

Even then, you cannot blindly trust magazine tests, its an estimate taken with a grain of salt, but still much better than manufacturer claims.

your explanation makes sense if you test all the cars the same day...but we know they are not.

so basically, the test done on monday morning is voided compared to another car done on wednesday afternoon with sunny track...

manufacturer are not 100% honest but magazine are not a benchmark either.

no credible performance till you actually test cars back to back , new benchmark is whoospy then

anyway, it keeps the discussion busy

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

Never said magazine tests were perfect, I said they are estimates that need to be taken with a grain of salt for obvoius reasons (they are not independent, varying conditions from day to day, short time with the cars, etc).The point was that they are better than comparing factory claims from different manufacturers...

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

the-missile:

Carlos from Spain:

Magazine tests like SA are more useful because they use the same methodology for all the cars so the test has less variables distorting the result. And while the times the SA drivers can achieve will not match the factory drivers, that is irrelevant, for the lap times only have value in relation to the other cars and not in absolute terms. So what is of value is not the absolute lap time, that tells you nothing about the car if you cant compare that value, what is important is that the lap time is comparable to other car's lap times, and its the difference in lap time that gives you any information. And magazine tests are much more comparable to tests of the same magazine that manufacturer claims with each other.

Even then, you cannot blindly trust magazine tests, its an estimate taken with a grain of salt, but still much better than manufacturer claims.

your explanation makes sense if you test all the cars the same day...but we know they are not.

so basically, the test done on monday morning is voided compared to another car done on wednesday afternoon with sunny track...

manufacturer are not 100% honest but magazine are not a benchmark either.

no credible performance till you actually test cars back to back , new benchmark is whoospy then

anyway, it keeps the discussion busy

True, best example seems to be the 488 GTB. I've seen pretty "slow" cars (straight line), which is weird.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

Very interesting articel in actuel sportauto supertest for the waterinjection cooling.

Sales rep couldnt explain how it works but sportauto did: Temp. above 5degres celsius, throttel open above 90% (full throttel), Rpm above 3000. 3 different adjustement of injection, level 1 above 50 degres celsius intake air temp, level 3 (max) above 56 degres celsius.the system can only provide to 30degres OAT the full 700hp. Above 30 degres output is reduced. So basicly the system is running all time when driving hard to provide cooling.

Mcracing1:

Very interesting articel in actuel sportauto supertest for the waterinjection cooling.

Sales rep couldnt explain how it works but sportauto did: Temp. above 5degres celsius, throttel open above 90% (full throttel), Rpm above 3000. 3 different adjustement of injection, level 1 above 50 degres celsius intake air temp, level 3 (max) above 56 degres celsius.the system can only provide to 30degres OAT the full 700hp. Above 30 degres output is reduced. So basicly the system is running all time when driving hard to provide cooling.

What did you expect? The engine is a modded 991.1/991.2 Turbo S engine.  They barely could squeeze 700 hp out of it, the dyno measurement (under 700 hp) proves it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

This was on inews posted on RL, not sure I believe it but I really hope it happens there are a lot of people who deserve to be stung for this recent hype mess.... not that I'm bitter 

997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

2018 McLaren 720S 

993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.

I'm I understanding correctly that Porsche may plan to open another batch of GT2RS, or are they already spoken for cars? 

Reason I ask is because I know someone who wanted a GT2RS and didnt get one (and he has a high end collection of Porches that I dont want to divulge)
--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

If true I hope they don't do the same to the .2GT3RS.

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

Why not? they should build as many cars as possible to weed speculation and put cars in the hands of drivers. Glad they finally see it.

build baby build

.23RS will be in the 5000 cars worldwide as .1

hope they increase the 2RS as well, so many friends want one...and a ton on flipping market

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

SciFrog:

Why not? they should build as many cars as possible to weed speculation and put cars in the hands of drivers. Glad they finally see it.

x1000

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

One I saw being put to good use in Le Castellet..

Regarding flippers, I see there are already 3x .2 GT3RS on Autoscout.. 

--

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1

nberry:

If true I hope they don't do the same to the .2GT3RS.

Isn't that more than a tad self serving? Surely they need to make more GT cars to satisfy at least of of the pent up demand?

Carlos from Spain:

SciFrog:

Why not? they should build as many cars as possible to weed speculation and put cars in the hands of drivers. Glad they finally see it.

x1000

Sooo true. 

All these fantastic cars, trading for absolutely ridiculous prices and many of those true enthusiats, who would really use - read: drive - the car and who could afford one for the regular price don‘t get one, because of that absurd speculation. 

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

The only true solution is a Polygraph to determine the true intention of the buyer. Porsche would certainly find a way to profit from it . Anyone wishing for less GT cars is just selfish 

the-missile:

Whoopsy:

 

 Cause the lack of available R compound Cup2s was communicated to me by Michelin, not Porsche. 

Michelin told me the opposite...GT2RS super time was done with the sticky compound...so who is saying the truth?

I got my info from Michelin France last Oct. when they were at Vallelunga for the Porsche Racing Experience. 

Then I got confirmation from Weissach in Feb for the same information. Then again in April from Porsche when I was in South Africa.
--

crayphile:

nberry:

If true I hope they don't do the same to the .2GT3RS.

Isn't that more than a tad self serving? Surely they need to make more GT cars to satisfy at least of of the pent up demand?

 Yes I don't want the car to be over produced for the obvious reasons.

But are you any different? You're buying limited production exotics like they are a dime a dozen. BY doing so you're depriving less connected buyers from getting one of those cars. The last thing you need is another Ferrari, Lambo or even a Porsche in your garage. 

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

Whoopsy:

the-missile:

Whoopsy:

 

 Cause the lack of available R compound Cup2s was communicated to me by Michelin, not Porsche. 

Michelin told me the opposite...GT2RS super time was done with the sticky compound...so who is saying the truth?

 

I got my info from Michelin France last Oct. when they were at Vallelunga for the Porsche Racing Experience. 

Then I got confirmation from Weissach in Feb for the same information. Then again in April from Porsche when I was in South Africa.
--

Same here, bud. That was given to me by Michelin fr team... I am french so we french a lot between french.

I asked them at that particular moment when it was the presentation of their new bluetooth goodies...I can't name who was there but all the guy involved from tyre testing phase to homologation to sales to blablabla...

the P team told the same thing as you've been told. i.e. not the R compound but the best of what cup 2 can give...

I hate such kind of behaviour. telling white to one, black to another...

--

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

Rossi:

Carlos from Spain:

SciFrog:

Why not? they should build as many cars as possible to weed speculation and put cars in the hands of drivers. Glad they finally see it.

x1000

 

Sooo true. 

All these fantastic cars, trading for absolutely ridiculous prices and many of those true enthusiats, who would really use - read: drive - the car and who could afford one for the regular price don‘t get one, because of that absurd speculation. 

Agreed.

Porsche did not learn anything from 991.1 GT3 RS case. On mobile.de there are tons of 991.1 GT3 RS examples with delivery kms or with maximally 500km on clock. All these cars originally ended in speculator hands. Same story is with 991.2 GT3, GT3 RS and GT2 RS. 

When you ask some German PZ about this models answer is "sold out to our oldest and most valuable costumers". Well, something is clearly wrong since around of 80% of this "oldest and most valuable costumers" are pure speculators. Almost all .2 GT3, GT3 RS and GT2 RS on offer on mobile or autoscout are sourced from German PZs. In some minor cases from Eastern EU PZs. 

I can bet that Porsche knows about it and even approve it on some level... Otherwise, it would not happen...

Or the oldest customers don’t pass at the occasion to make money to pay for other toys... Sorry but even here there is a lot of hypocrisy about this...

The fact is very few cars end up making money. Look at the new GT3 motor. Totally sunk the old cars values except the mezgers. You want the fastest and best and soon the base model outruns it. It is still a risky game given these production numbers so speaking as someone who ‘deserves’ a shot at buy a GT car at sticker - Life is too good and short to question why. Just enjoy.  Everything turns out for the best of you just work hard. 

nberry:

But are you any different? You're buying limited production exotics like they are a dime a dozen. BY doing so you're depriving less connected buyers from getting one of those cars. The last thing you need is another Ferrari, Lambo or even a Porsche in your garage. 

 

Au contraire Blackadder . I am most certainly différent because I would buy the cars whether they were limited or not. I have a GT3 Touring but would be happy for more to be produced to get into the hands of other enthusiasts. Furthermore, I buy the normal  production cars and take significant hits on them across all manufacturers. I know you are not mean spirited. I suspect you don't want to lose too much on your 991.2 GT3RS as opposed to making a profit on it. Your original post did you no favours though ( as evidenced by the responses it got),  and on reflection perhaps you would have used slightly different language ?

I think everyone who wants a special model should get one. Of course I know that this is not possible, but if you show your strong and sincere interest early enough, you should be able to get one. And if you are really interested in a car, you don‘t care much about resale. Okay, a positive resale helps, but it should not be the main reason why you want a car, because you don‘t buy to sell, but to enjoy it.

But in today‘s overheated market situation, you often don‘t even have a chance, whereas dubious folks get one, flippers get one, well known speculators get one and so on. But the manufacturers don‘t seem to care as long as the money comes in. I don‘t like that, one should not beg to spend one‘s money as well as one should not be blackmailed by car manufacturers.

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

crayphile:

nberry:

But are you any different? You're buying limited production exotics like they are a dime a dozen. BY doing so you're depriving less connected buyers from getting one of those cars. The last thing you need is another Ferrari, Lambo or even a Porsche in your garage. 

 

Au contraire Blackadder . I am most certainly différent because I would buy the cars whether they were limited or not. I have a GT3 Touring but would be happy for more to be produced to get into the hands of other enthusiasts. Furthermore, I buy the normal  production cars and take significant hits on them across all manufacturers. I know you are not mean spirited. I suspect you don't want to lose too much on your 991.2 GT3RS as opposed to making a profit on it. Your original post did you no favours though ( as evidenced by the responses it got),  and on reflection perhaps you would have used slightly different language ?

Crayphile, it wasn't my intent to slam you or display my anger. As I have posted many times before, I don't profit being in and out of cars almost yearly. I let my dealer profit while he gives me accessibility to the latest and most coveted models. Like you I lose money on the transactions if you factor in sales tax and interest on loans or lost of investment profit if I pay cash. MY point with respect to your situation is that most of the cars you buy are in fact limited which you then garage. Many buyers would love access to these cars but don't because people like you gobble them up. The access to these cars because almost impossible.

I know the system because I was in it with Ferrari. I don't begrudge you because you can get these cars. My issue was why slam me because I would like a different type of restriction on the production of a certain car?

Where the willingness is great, the difficulties cannot be great.

Brian Redman handing out the hardware at today's http://ohioconcours.com

Mike

918 Spyder + 991.2 GT2 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

nberry:

crayphile:

nberry:

But are you any different? You're buying limited production exotics like they are a dime a dozen. BY doing so you're depriving less connected buyers from getting one of those cars. The last thing you need is another Ferrari, Lambo or even a Porsche in your garage. 

 

Au contraire Blackadder . I am most certainly différent because I would buy the cars whether they were limited or not. I have a GT3 Touring but would be happy for more to be produced to get into the hands of other enthusiasts. Furthermore, I buy the normal  production cars and take significant hits on them across all manufacturers. I know you are not mean spirited. I suspect you don't want to lose too much on your 991.2 GT3RS as opposed to making a profit on it. Your original post did you no favours though ( as evidenced by the responses it got),  and on reflection perhaps you would have used slightly different language ?

Crayphile, it wasn't my intent to slam you or display my anger. As I have posted many times before, I don't profit being in and out of cars almost yearly. I let my dealer profit while he gives me accessibility to the latest and most coveted models. Like you I lose money on the transactions if you factor in sales tax and interest on loans or lost of investment profit if I pay cash. MY point with respect to your situation is that most of the cars you buy are in fact limited which you then garage. Many buyers would love access to these cars but don't because people like you gobble them up. The access to these cars because almost impossible.

I know the system because I was in it with Ferrari. I don't begrudge you because you can get these cars. My issue was why slam me because I would like a different type of restriction on the production of a certain car?

It is more simple than that. Would you buy the same car if it depreciated 50% over 3 years like any other car? If your answer is yes then good for you, you can drive it for cheaper. If your answer is no, then you cannot complain when the gravy train will be soon over...