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    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    They have to leave room for a TTS for the HP.

    Also Porsche IS moving the turbo towards a GT car. Why? Because they will sell more of them, especially in the US!

    For the drivers who want more feel, they provide the GT3.

    Want more HP and less handling? They cannot compete with the Z06.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    As most us who's geting the car I was confronted with this problem shall i get the tip or the manual?

    Most of people i hear they say i dont like tip...
    In the past i also didn't like tip too. However, today porsche made be reconsider my principle. But today a tip is faster that is good for all of us, so today i'm happy i can consider it as a viable option.

    For sometimes i was asking myself which one should I get tip or manual, then I asked myself what I needed it to be?

    fast, excellent handling, torque, reliability, track abilities and the list could go on... But nowhere in my list was manual or tip!

    Then the question is what i will do with the car: it will not be my everyday car, but rather my weekend and vacation, most of all sensation car and as well as occasional track abilities, i need the back seat for kid or storage, need torque at low rpm... In order word an all-around sports car that is why i chosen to get the turbo and not the GT3 nor the RS.

    This tip issue never upset it me but rather intrigued it me. Today i really dont care about the few tenth between the 2 trannies but rather my pleasure/experience and usage of the car.
    If I cared about racing or pure track experience, then i need to get the GT3 and GT3 does not come with tip nor PDK.

    The turbo will have sufficient track and road capabilities for me
    So then the question is which one will give me more pleasure? ---> may be manual
    So what can make a difference? one thing makes a real difference for me: after performance comes handling or before i don't know -- so as the lsd diff is not offered with tip tranny that can make a difference. (and it did up to now!)

    If the tip tranny had been offered with LSD differential I would have probably chosen the tip because it's faster -- who cares if it's a 5 or 6 speed if it faster, who cares i need to push a button, use paddles, stick to change gears I take the faster one offered period -- if the limited was offered on both trannies.

    I made my choice and will be hard to change it; I decided to go with manual because I can had the differential option, and i will had short shift to it.

    I'm sure tip is very good and very responsive (have to make such great times) but its a shame porsche did not offered the diff with tip because i'm looking first of all for handling and power, so i had to choose between both and for the choice is better handling (diff option) over few th of second. Now, I'm anxiously waiting for press review.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Another candidate for the PDK, if you can wait.

    Porsche really missed the boat on that one, they could have sold 50%+ of the cars with the pdk, probably a $5K option...

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Nick, I fully agree.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    if gearbox was f1 like ferraris ,would perhaps have tried it . but tiptronic, 5 spd ,steering wheel buttons, no way! come on even bmw "m" have 7 spd & paddles.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    i can wait, but for how long?
    Will they release it on the turbo for sure?
    hope will know it soon for sure

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:


    The problem is that Porsche still offers Tip technology of the last decade. 5 gears, based on the old DC system





    Perhaps, Porsche doesn't want to spend all R&D money on DSG yet.

    Maybe, they should scrap DSG all together in favor of AMG's new 7G-TRONIC.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    It is a big purchase, you shouldn't have to compromise. But why not wait a little longer.

    Or it is not a big purchase for you, then you can afford to buy anything while waiting for what you really want.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    paczo911 said:
    By the way, Hurst, great post!!! Greetings!



    Thanks, its the way I feel about things important in my life!

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Drivers (including many who posted in this thread above) who claim that there is no difference between a car that can go, say, 0-160kph/100mph in less than 7 seconds versus 8+ seconds are either (a) dishonest with themselves and with us, or (b) cryptically opposed to street-legal cars with this much performance potential (for good or bad reasons)...And for those who say the horsepower obsession is baseless, they are either misinformed or wishfully thinking.



    I agree with you.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    They have to leave room for a TTS for the HP.

    Also Porsche IS moving the turbo towards a GT car. Why? Because they will sell more of them, especially in the US!

    For the drivers who want more feel, they provide the GT3.

    Want more HP and less handling? They cannot compete with the Z06.



    At some stage, the dependancy on US customers (currency exchange risk) will kill them. In the late 80s exactly the same thing happened to Porsche. It will happen again if they intentionally distract European customers.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:


    The problem is that Porsche still offers Tip technology of the last decade. 5 gears, based on the old DC system





    Perhaps, Porsche doesn't want to spend all R&D money on DSG yet.

    Maybe, they should scrap DSG all together in favor of AMG's new 7G-TRONIC.



    The 7G-TRONIC of AMG could not handle the torque. That is why they still use the old Tip.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    RC,
    This is a great topic to discuss!

    In an earlier thread, you noted that performance is the primary factor in your enjoyment of a vehicle. This means you may automatically go for the Tiptronic because it yields better standing start acceleration times for the 997 Turbo. Do you think the difference in times will be apparent in the real world, or only against clocks?

    My personal philosophy is that entertainment is the most important factor, not strictly performance. Driving excitement and FUN is the primary function of a sports car unless you are racing or are perpetually late for work. What makes a car fun to drive?

    G-forces and the sensation of speed are obviously an important factor. The 997 Turbo looks like it will be a very fast car by street car standards. However, at some point, a few tenths here and there aren't going to make a difference at all. Experienced drivers may be able to feel slight differences, but when debating a few tenths difference, I'm afraid most people are just after personal satisfaction of knowing what their car can do. The sensation of performance is what matters most, unless you are driving for time. Depending on where you live and how you use your car, a 5% change in power in a car that already has 500hp may not make a difference....but I digress.

    I think it's important to examine how the Tiptronic changes the driving experience, if at all. Throttle response, execution of driver inputs, driver involvement, performance, and driver skill are all factors. The differences in PDK vs. Tiptronic vs. Manual will tick difference boxes for different drivers.

    Same thing for PASM. We must examine how it affects chassis feedback and performance. For some drivers, it removes enjoyment because the chassis is less communicative. For others, it adds enjoyment because of potential performance increases. 99% of drivers will not realize the performance of the car, so I think PASM is more for practicallity in varying driving conditions. Maybe even different corners on the same race track.

    Conclusion: When a certain technology inteferes with the driver's entertainment because it makes the car less communicative or involving, but does not offset this loss in other areas for your intended usage, then I say it shouldn't be ordered with the car. For example, even if Tiptronic is a little bit faster, I would choose the manual. PDK could be the best compromise.

    Another example is the sport button on the E46 M3, which simply remaps the throttle response. It feels artificial and I don't think it adds anything.

    - Justin

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    New 7G-Tronic in AMG models CLK and CLS 63 can handle up to 800Nm so you are wrong here... And this new version use aluminum paddles ala Ferrari...

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:


    The problem is that Porsche still offers Tip technology of the last decade. 5 gears, based on the old DC system





    Perhaps, Porsche doesn't want to spend all R&D money on DSG yet.

    Maybe, they should scrap DSG all together in favor of AMG's new 7G-TRONIC.



    The 7G-TRONIC of AMG could not handle the torque. That is why they still use the old Tip.



    It's being used on the CLS 63 and all up coming AMG's using the new V8. That engine is producing more than 500+hp and 465 ft-lb. torque. That's more than the turbo. And it has to push 4000+lbs.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    I never thought it would be so difficult to choose between Auto or manual, but i think I will be happy with either choice or maybe not...?

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    In the hands of a Pro driver on track, who "knows" how to use the Tiptronic...
    it is pretty amazing!

    That was my impression after doing "Hot Laps" at Weissach

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Would you go for the auto or manual 997TT?

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    ... Do you think the difference in times will be apparent in the real world, or only against clocks?

    My personal philosophy is that entertainment is the most important factor, not strictly performance. Driving excitement and FUN is the primary function of a sports car unless you are racing or are perpetually late for work.



    Hi Justin,

    Since I have owned both 6-speed and Tip 996TTs, I thought I'd interject my 2 pfennig's worth here.

    The 6-speed is only slightly more involving while trying to go really fast on a track or rat racing on country lanes. The biggest drawback to the 996TT Tip is the uncertainty in down-shift points and/or an unpredictable delay in responding to down-shift commands from the selector knob or thumb buttons. This can be pretty frustrating when one is trying to achieve that "special feeling" of mastery over a particular combination of corners and elevation changes.

    What the Tip has going for it in the same situations is the freedom from conflicting physical movements that can sometimes mess up the best of intentions. I'm a bit larger of a fellow than the stereotypical race car driver and my long limbs and big feet are a wee bit clumsy in the confined spaces of the cockpit. As I finish the esses leading to the keyhole corner at Mid-Ohio, there is a spot where I'd like to ease out of hard left cornering (4-wheel drift?), set the nose with the brakes, down-shift while continuing to brake into the uphill section, cross the steering over into a hard right corner, and ease on enough power to plant the rear end. This combination of control inputs is somewhat difficult to accomplish in the time required, considering the high-G-load environment afforded by today's super-sticky tires.

    The Tip requires a fraction of the pedal and gear lever action for this series of events, compared to the 6-speed. And, the likelihood of a fast, non-jerky, well-executed combination of control inputs rises substantially if I'm the pilot and have a Tiptronic. For me, the 6-speed's advantage in more accurate, predictable control is nearly wiped out by the Tip's advantage in the reduction of conflicting or time-constrained hand and foot movements.

    On the street, when one is not always prepared ahead of time for events or opportunities, the Tip wins, hands down. Even if the tested performance were exactly the same as the 6-speed, the Tip would win. I can't tell you how many times I DO NOT shoot for an impromptu hole in traffic with the 6-speed when the Tip would have been an "automatic" go-for-it (pun intended). There is always going to be a second's worth of preparatory work to snap out of cruise mode in the 6-speed, decide which gear to select, and then execute the motions. The Tip allows one to decide and go in the same moment. VTG turbos should only make this advantage even bigger for the Tip.

    Cheers,

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Well sum up, Mike! You're the second person after RC that's ever written anything positive about the tip

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    A lot of people have passed judgement based on a pretty limited amount of info.

    Porsche figures for 0 to 60 for both the Carrera GT and 997 turbo (Manual) are the same... That's gotta be saying something. Also, don't lose track of the historical conservatism of Porsche numbers.

    As far as the tip being faster, well, it just is I guess. Before rolling out the complaint that this is 1990's technology, it might be better to wait and see how good this latest tip really is (and until you drive THIS tip, everything is speculation). "Old" tech is just fine if it works well. Also, the fact that it is 5 speed is not necessarily bad, the prodigious torqure curve probably makes it a non-issue, plus, it is a simpler and a smidgen lighter. Anyway, I would still choose manual, just because I enjoy it that way. It wouldn't bother me that the tip is faster (actually, if I was a tip customer and found out that Porsche artificially restricted the tip to keep the manual faster, I'd probably feel ripped off - cuts both ways).

    My recommendation to anyone that would ask would be to take a deep breath, this car has a lot more torque (spread over a very wide range) than the 996 TT, it is significantly more powerful and has numerous detail refinements in the AWD drivetrain. It is going to be a great GT. I agree that the GT3 is today's answer for the raw, uncompromising Porsche. You just need to decide what kind of car you really want.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    amjf088 said:
    Porsche figures for 0 to 60 for both the Carrera GT and 997 turbo (Manual) are the same... That's gotta be saying something. Also, don't lose track of the historical conservatism of Porsche numbers.


    Furthermore, those numbers are WITHOUT Sport Chrono Plus/overboost, which should improve them significantly.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    W8MM Thanks for your post. I think most people are underestimating Porsches design team and accusing the marketing team of underhanded tactics.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    amjf088 said:
    A lot of people have passed judgement based on a pretty limited amount of info.

    Porsche figures for 0 to 60 for both the Carrera GT and 997 turbo (Manual) are the same... That's gotta be saying something. Also, don't lose track of the historical conservatism of Porsche numbers.

    As far as the tip being faster, well, it just is I guess. Before rolling out the complaint that this is 1990's technology, it might be better to wait and see how good this latest tip really is (and until you drive THIS tip, everything is speculation). "Old" tech is just fine if it works well. Also, the fact that it is 5 speed is not necessarily bad, the prodigious torqure curve probably makes it a non-issue, plus, it is a simpler and a smidgen lighter. Anyway, I would still choose manual, just because I enjoy it that way. It wouldn't bother me that the tip is faster (actually, if I was a tip customer and found out that Porsche artificially restricted the tip to keep the manual faster, I'd probably feel ripped off - cuts both ways).

    My recommendation to anyone that would ask would be to take a deep breath, this car has a lot more torque (spread over a very wide range) than the 996 TT, it is significantly more powerful and has numerous detail refinements in the AWD drivetrain. It is going to be a great GT. I agree that the GT3 is today's answer for the raw, uncompromising Porsche. You just need to decide what kind of car you really want.



    Great post!

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Well, all this advances take you out of the driving involment. Since nobody is going to buy a TT to race against the clock, why would you want a less involving/fun gearchange even if it is faster? (yet to see real numbers)

    Security features although penalize driving involmente, are always good especially if they can be disconnected. But not automated substitutes for the driver.

    I said it before, a future automated steering will make the car faster round the track but would you consider it a sports car?

    A 360/430 F1 is not the best option against a manual, but I think Ferrari has forgotten how to build a manual this last years and Porsche is starting to forget with the 997TT and the stupid times it achived compared to the heavier, 5 ratios system.
    Why are they forgetting? well Ferrari has managed to make over 90% people tick a 10.000 Euro option on the list.

    Edited: I understand if somebody has to do city driving 90% of the time it is more confortable, but that's it.

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Hey Mike,
    Thanks for the comparison. I recall many people preferring Tip on the 996TT, including Hurley Haywood!

    It seems like PDK could an excellent compromise between manual and tip. I suspect it could be slightly more responsive to inputs while maintaining the benefits of the Tip.

    It is definitely frustrating when I cannot execute a downshift in the time available. Thus far I have attributed it to my lack of driving skill, but I suppose there are certain situations that are nearly impossible for all except professionals.

    - Justin

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    I don't think they are forgetting how to build a good manual, but as engines are becoming so advanced the six speed is becoming obsolete...?

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    I don't think they are forgetting how to build a good manual, but as engines are becoming so advanced the six speed is becoming obsolete...?



    This has nothing to do with advanced engines. The problem is that everybody wants to be Schumacher without putting in the effort and the factories gladly oblige, by making auto trannies (yes, F1 and SMG included), which are faster shifting than a 6-speed. It sells, that's all.
    Why do we make babies the old-fashioned way, when we could do it artificially?
    Same question applies to handling a "stick" ( ).

    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    rhino said:
    I don't think they are forgetting how to build a good manual, but as engines are becoming so advanced the six speed is becoming obsolete...?



    This has nothing to do with advanced engines. The problem is that everybody wants to be Schumacher without putting in the effort and the factories gladly oblige, by making auto trannies (yes, F1 and SMG included), which are faster shifting than a 6-speed. It sells, that's all.
    Why do we make babies the old-fashioned way, when we could do it artificially?
    Same question applies to handling a "stick" ( ).




    Re: Sportscar Philosophy

    Quote:
    The Tip requires a fraction of the pedal and gear lever action for this series of events, compared to the 6-speed. And, the likelihood of a fast, non-jerky, well-executed combination of control inputs rises substantially if I'm the pilot and have a Tiptronic.



    I would think a lot of the satisfaction of a 6spd is the fact that it is more challenging to drive well. Sure, if all the actions of driving were taken over by a computer, you could drive around a track or whatever in perfect precision and maximum speed every time.

    ...but, if that were the case, would you want to?

    Make mine a 6-speed (with a sweet SSK).

     
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