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    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

     Test conditions (temperature etc.) can make a substantial difference - thus testing the cars on the same day under the same conditions is important Smiley 

     Yes, I know that.

    But you said "I would prefer to see a Sport Auto Papenburg test for definitive numbers" - why? The sun always shines when Sport Auto is at Papenburg? Or?

    ABS is just as reliable as Sport Auto.

     


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    acrobat:
     Test conditions (temperature etc.) can make a substantial difference - thus testing the cars on the same day under the same conditions is important Smiley 

     Yes, I know that.

    But you said "I would prefer to see a Sport Auto Papenburg test for definitive numbers" - why? The sun always shines when Sport Auto is at Papenburg? Or?

    ABS is just as reliable as Sport Auto.

     

     The difference is that SportAuto tests all the cars on the same day Smiley


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    MKSGR:
     

     The difference is that SportAuto tests all the cars on the same day Smiley

    I still can't see your point. Why is it important here?

    We're talking about TechArt Turbo's numbers. What if AutoBild SC tested the ZR1 and the TechArt on a very cold day (which is good for the turbo/kompressor-engines)???

    If Sport Auto would test the TechArt car at Papenburg on a hot day and would get a time around 30 seconds, it would be better for you? Just because the numbers came from Sport Auto?


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    acrobat:
    MKSGR:
     

     The difference is that SportAuto tests all the cars on the same day Smiley

    I still can't see your point. Why is it important here?

    We're talking about TechArt Turbo's numbers. What if AutoBild SC tested the ZR1 and the TechArt on a very cold day (which is good for the turbo/kompressor-engines)???

    If Sport Auto would test the TechArt car at Papenburg on a hot day and would get a time around 30 seconds, it would be better for you? Just because the numbers came from Sport Auto?

     The point is: you cannot necessarily compare 0-300 numbers taken on different days. Only if the test conditions were similar this does make sense. As we don't know the test conditions of the AB test the 0-300 numbers are not necessarily comparable to other numbers from other tests or factory claims. In the SportAuto tests you know that the conditions were similar - thus these numbers are comparable.


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    MKSGR:
     The point is: you cannot necessarily compare 0-300 numbers taken on different days. Only if the test conditions were similar this does make sense. As we don't know whether the test conditions the 0-300 numbers are not necessarily comparable. In the SportAuto tests you know that the conditions were similar - thus these numbers are comparable.

    Of course they are not comparable.

    But let me ask you: why is the TechArt's 25,4 second time is so unbelievable? Because AutoBild Sportscars got nearly the exact same 0-100 and 0-200 km/h numbers as Sport Auto did (2,9 and 2,9 s, 9,3 s and 9,4 s). According to these numbers the 25,4 second time has to be good. Remember, a 6-speed-online member did 36,6 s with his 500-hp-PDK on a hot day...


     


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    the same techart car runned in the sport Auto short test a couple of months ago an hit 0-200 after 9,7 sek.

    But Sport auto said they doubt the reliability of this car because the running 820 nm with the pdk.....


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    acrobat, I'm not saying the Autobild numbers are a typo or anything like that, just as Marcus says Sport Auto do the tests on the same day with all other cars present - in 0-300kph testing which I have done (and I have done quite a lot) conditions make a huge difference - you can only compare 0-300kph same cars same day, the numbers on their own are not very comparable.......



     


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    TB993tt:

    acrobat, I'm not saying the Autobild numbers are a typo or anything like that, just as Marcus says Sport Auto do the tests on the same day with all other cars present - in 0-300kph testing which I have done (and I have done quite a lot) conditions make a huge difference - you can only compare 0-300kph same cars same day, the numbers on their own are not very comparable....... 

    So - according to you - only Sport Auto's 0-300 km/h times are dominant. Because they tests cars on the same day. Henceforth no other, independently measured 0-300 times are dominant... right? Then we don't have to believe AMS' 458 Italia time, or Porsche's 0-300 claimes, or Bugatti's 16,7 seconds time...etc. Ahhh Smiley


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    acrobat:

    So - according to you - only Sport Auto's 0-300 km/h times are dominant. Because they tests cars on the same day. Henceforth no other, independently measured 0-300 times are dominant... right? Then we don't have to believe AMS' 458 Italia time, or Porsche's 0-300 claimes, or Bugatti's 16,7 seconds time...etc. Ahhh Smiley

    Not sure why you are getting upset/frustrated ?

    The forums are for sharing information - I have probably done ~60+ timed 0-300kph in different Porsches in different states of tune at different locations on different days and I am merely sharing my experience which is that conditions have to be identical for the tests to be valid.

    Some of Porsche's 0-300s have been way out - I was never able to get my Carerra GT to go under 33s despite their assertion that it took less than 27s. A friend even took this up with his contacts at Porsche who were involved in th testing of the CGT and they were adamant that their number was correct...... my car's power was all there and my gear shifting looked pretty good (most of the time ;) ) so it was other variables (incidentally SA tested the CGT in around 34s also IIRC....

    Don't be upset about this, the Techart 620 conversion is very very quick but until I can line one up against my car on the same track or until a magazine like SA does this against other known cars I take the Autobild test with a healthy variation of ~4 seconds Smiley


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Freak997Turbo:
     there were problems in the installation??? WTF!!!

    fuckin lier....Why u dont fly to Sweden and install the vtg's for him LOL!!! 


    We kind of don't like this kind of language here on Rennteam.com.

    First strike..


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

     

    in what consists the techart UPGRADE??

     

    only ECU and exhaust?

     

    what else more?   its  posible   take the pdk from 500hp to 620hp with only this minor MODS?

     

     

    thank you!!


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    From reading forums ("forum statistics"), a typical stage 2 gain is around 10%,15% with the most optimistic tuners. A 20% gain like this means extremely aggressive tuning, and some mucking around with the intercooler, IMHO.

    This Techart car is an enigma because they way it blows away existing expectations - even allowed for non-standard testing conditions, *yet* doing with a PDK, and *YET* still standing. Since the numbers don't lie, What went wrong :-)?  My vote:
    1. PDK was modified.
    2. More than just a stage 2 tune. Perhaps intercooler.
    3. Beginner's luck.

    BTW, could someone please give an example of another *actual* car that does 0-300 in 25.4 sec? What hp and torque does it have?


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    acrobat:
    MKSGR:

     


    But also remember the 41 secs of the Sport Auto 0-300 km/h Test last Year for the pdk turbo. honestly a Self made Test without a dbn logfile is like nothing

    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    TB993tt:

     

    Hey Can, just saw these replies.....

    What you write above is very true. The GT2 in the video above had the Cargraphic 635 kit fitted with a set of CTR intercoolers (like mine). The original plan was for the owner to get the work done at RS Tuning's facility so that they could check everything was OK and even do some optimisation of the program.

    The kit was actually installed by a shop in Sweden and I believe there were problems in the installation - I don't know the details (and in truth its non of my business) but it is entirely possible that the GT2 is not running the full 635 power....

    ...snip...

     

     

     
    Toby, thanks for the clarification - makes sense. In as much as an installation problem (implying hardware? can't think of a software installation problem that still allows a car to run, let alone run fast) would likely be much more problematic, and this GT2 is still pretty fast, maybe it's more likely that some custom tuning/optimization is needed, not installation problem?
     
    It's too bad that for whatever reason this car did not have further custom tuning -- I assume that's what you mean by customization. Also too bad that data logging has not been posted; it  would be a good and interesting lesson.
    (BTW, I've seen examples of a "problem child" with a number of tuning companies and does not think that single car  video/experience should ever be used to judge a tuner.)
     
    How does RS Tuning does the optimization? I assume this would involve data logging, but how would that data logging be obtained, by engine dyno? Perhaps that's the problem here -- the high cost involved has caused owner to have second thought?
     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Can, very intertesting questions.....

    At these levels it is quite hard to spot if one "drops" 50hp, my own car took 3-4s longer in a 0-300kph at a different venue and to this day I don't know whether it was down on power or not (unfortunately it is not so simple to go retest at original venue) - I had it on a chassis dyno which did suggest it was down 40hp but you probably know what I think of those.... (it is moot for my car now as it is under the knife for major surgery so hopefully will come out 100%)

    I am told that the latest VTG engines have a lot more little bits and pieces which can go wrong and cause these annoying losses in performance and they are obviously hard to spot in the first place since eg in a 60-130mph the difference of 50hp at the 600hp level is probably less than 0.5s which can easily be accounted for by temperatures/surface/gradient/fuel/shifting etc etc....

    despite being called a "f**ing liar" by someone who I really do not wish to interact with, what I said about the GT2 in the video is the truth but if it was or was not running its full hp/torque I have no idea and to this day neither does the owner I would wager ?

    The optimisation is as you envisage it, on the car, laptop plugged in and they check the numbers and I guess they can do some subtle timing and boost tweaks if there appears to be room on the table in terms of temperatures to give it higher load (torque) targets.

    Why this owner did not go direct I am not sure, he emailed me many times and I sort of "lubricated" the deal. He was going to ship his GT2 from Monaco to RS then have it shipped back (quite why he couldn't/wouldn't drive it there was a bit of a mystery to me since it is only 5 or so hours away and a great drive up that A26/A7 Autostrada) so he ended up with the car in his native Sweden having the kit fitted by his local (reputable apparently) race shop - I enquired to RS how it went on and was told "there were some installation problems" - that is the extent of my "f**king lying"

    I will fire this guy an email and see if we can throw any light on the subject.


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    TB993tt:
    (it is moot for my car now as it is under the knife for major surgery so hopefully will come out 100%)subject.

    Smiley Your cost-no-object approach to perfect your car is truly admirable. I am beginning to realize you are twice nuttier than I thought. (True compliment - no sarcasm. "Nuttiness" is good when it comes to hobbies. Smiley) Anyway, at this level of tuning and expense, I too am puzzled if the GT2 in question has not received a custom tune/optimization, especially as its performance has been questioned.

    Yes I know how you feel about chassis tuning.
    1. Engine-dyno tuning. The gold standard: precise, a must when say, the differences between a 48mm throttle body and a 52mm body are compared. Did I gain, or maybe even lose, 5 hp?
    2. Chassis-dyno tuning. Less precise, more uncontrolled variables, more crude. But when one is merely adjusting boost/timing/afr for example and know the number has nowhere to go but up, good enough. Did I again 50 hp?
    3. Road test. The truth. But least precise, and the most uncontrolled variables: road surface, temp, wind, etc.

    I don't think of the 3 methods as one vs. the others, but as different tools to be used for different purposes, and as continuum of cost and ease of testing vs. control and precision. Data logging makes the 3 methods all quite potent IMO.
    If you want to squeeze another 10 hp, an engine dyno is a must. But if your car has just dropped 50, chassis dyno, same day, same temp, same setting won't lie to you. This is why the good American tuners have been able to tune fast & reliable cars (there have been exceptions and accidents I am sure), even without the precision of an engine dyno. IMHO.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    TB993tt:

    Why this owner did not go direct I am not sure, he emailed me many times and I sort of "lubricated" the deal. He was going to ship his GT2 from Monaco to RS then have it shipped back (quite why he couldn't/wouldn't drive it there was a bit of a mystery to me since it is only 5 or so hours away and a great drive up that A26/A7 Autostrada) so he ended up with the car in his native Sweden having the kit fitted by his local (reputable apparently) race shop - I enquired to RS how it went on and was told "there were some installation problems" - that is the extent of my "f**king lying"

    I will fire this guy an email and see if we can throw any light on the subject.

    Just to update this, the owner of the white GT2 in the video with the 635 CG kit (who was smoked by the red 997tt) emailed me back.....

    He says he was running 95RON fuel (his engine is mapped for 98RON so he will have reduced power) and the red 997tt he thinks was on ethanol E85 and tuned very aggressively for the drag running not a "race" type tune which he has.....


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    TB993tt:

    Just to update this, the owner of the white GT2 in the video with the 635 CG kit (who was smoked by the red 997tt) emailed me back.....

    He says he was running 95RON fuel (his engine is mapped for 98RON so he will have reduced power) and the red 997tt he thinks was on ethanol E85 and tuned very aggressively for the drag running not a "race" type tune which he has.....


    This is a reasonable explanation. OTOH, it seems someone went through the trouble of not just racing, but VIDEOTAPING racing of 2 cars; and not only not knowing what the other car has, but has the wrong kind of gas in his? None of my biz wax, but .... ay ay ay.

    **IF** above is true, then the youtube clipping should really start with a banner warning audience: Caution, this is a casual race, a triple blind study Smiley where no one -- tester/driver, videotaper, organzier -- knows, or cares what is going on, and might be worthless if you want to learn anything from it. :-)

    BTW, how does RS tune differently for drag running versus racing please? Different boost, emphasis on more power at higher rpm?


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    cannga:

    BTW, how does RS tune differently for drag running versus racing please? Different boost, emphasis on more power at higher rpm?

     

    Agree what you say but maybe there is/was only 95 RON available ? I have ended up using the wrong gas for one of these events simply by mistiming the fuel stop and ending up having to use crappy fuel - it can be done Smiley

    RS Tunes for race conditionsso very conservative with maintainable low engine temperatures - it is quite easy to get a lot more by working the VTGs much harder. RS know the limits which they are happy to work to through extensive and destructive testing, others will guess at the limits and a lot of the time the engines will survive because they are not used hard enough to become critical.

    RS does not tune for drag running it seems to be against his principles of engine tuning Smiley



    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    cannga:
    TB993tt:

    Just to update this, the owner of the white GT2 in the video with the 635 CG kit (who was smoked by the red 997tt) emailed me back.....

    He says he was running 95RON fuel (his engine is mapped for 98RON so he will have reduced power) and the red 997tt he thinks was on ethanol E85 and tuned very aggressively for the drag running not a "race" type tune which he has.....


     

    Low octane, bad installation, other car ran E85 w/agressive tune  bla bla bla bla
     

    Keep posting excuses and BSing Mr Toby :)

     

     


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Freak997Turbo:

    Keep posting excuses and BSing Mr Toby :)


    From what I understand he doesn´t have any connection to RS-tuning and therefore has no need to find excuses. Much unlike you he provided some reasonable assumptions that could explain the performance differences.

    So please tell us, apart from insulting a long-term participant on Rennteam, what is your interest in the subject?
     


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Guys really bad fuel can actually reduce power by 100hp in a tuned turbo. And this is not a guess, it happened to me more than once recently. (yes where i currently drive the car the majority of gas stations have mixed gas- hint; recession)

    You get detonation, ecu intermittently reduces boost and ignition timing. 100-200 5.7sec went to 6.5 secs+ by virtue of  NOT CLEAN FUEL. It takes 3-4 ecu cycles to get the parametres right after you change back to normal 98 or 100 RON.

    Also a lot of other things can cause power to be significantly down in a tuned car - dirty/blocked airfilter, any kind of small pressure leak (in the half a dozen places that can happen on a 997tt), spark plugs (measured -110hp on a 9ff car with claimed 1000hp) .

    However if you take your car racing (even if its amateur stuff etc) one should always check all the above.

    Point is that on a stock car the above will cause -5% power but on a tuned car, with ignition curve maxed out over the knock curve, every single problem gets multiplied..

     


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    GT:

    Also a lot of other things can cause power to be significantly down in a tuned car - dirty/blocked airfilter, any kind of small pressure leak, spark plugs [...]

    Point is that on a stock car the above will cause -5% power but on a tuned car, with ignition curve maxed out over the knock curve, every single problem gets multiplied..


    That sounds quite reasonable. How does the system measure boost pressure on this particular engine? If it would be performed via MAF this would not necessarily show any small leaks, I assume?


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Ferdie:
    Freak997Turbo:

    Keep posting excuses and BSing Mr Toby :)


    From what I understand he doesn´t have any connection to RS-tuning and therefore has no need to find excuses. Much unlike you he provided some reasonable assumptions that could explain the performance differences.

    So please tell us, apart from insulting a long-term participant on Rennteam, what is your interest in the subject?
     

    Hey dumb azz...Toby is RS-Tuning cheerleader....check his threads/post in rennlist/6speed/teamspeed...until u check shut ur monkey sticky ass up

    And yes im interesting of making a fun of u, RC/RUF and Toby/RS coz u guys r always BSing and lying on members overhere.

    Keep advertising for ur SLOW RUF, 9FF and RS tuners which sells expensive slow shit  


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    RC:
    Freak997Turbo:
     there were problems in the installation??? WTF!!!

    fuckin lier....Why u dont fly to Sweden and install the vtg's for him LOL!!! 


    We kind of don't like this kind of language here on Rennteam.com.

    First strike..


    It doesn't matter if u dont like this kind of language!!!!!

    FUCK U AND FUCK UR LOSER RENNTEAM !!!!


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Freak997Turbo:

    It doesn't matter if u dont like this kind of language!!!!!

    FUCK U AND FUCK UR LOSER RENNTEAM !!!!

     

    ...and last strike. 

    Bye-bye...  Smiley

    P.S.: you must have a first class education, really impressive.  Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    RC:
    Freak997Turbo:

    It doesn't matter if u dont like this kind of language!!!!!

    FUCK U AND FUCK UR LOSER RENNTEAM !!!!

     

    ...and last strike. 

    Bye-bye...  Smiley

    P.S.: you must have a first class education, really impressive.  Smiley

     

    It was an impressive "last strike" tho' wasnt it Smiley Smiley

     


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2 659PS/827NM DIN


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Smiley


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    TB993tt:

    ...snip...

    RS Tunes for race conditionsso very conservative with maintainable low engine temperatures - it is quite easy to get a lot more by working the VTGs much harder. RS know the limits which they are happy to work to through extensive and destructive testing, others will guess at the limits and a lot of the time the engines will survive because they are not used hard enough to become critical.

    RS does not tune for drag running it seems to be against his principles of engine tuning Smiley



    I see. So engine is kept at max rpm for a "long" period and IAT/EGT monitored?

    Other tuners do road test cars on track with data logging, so these cars ARE run "hard," not just under the controlled environment of an engine dyno. For the sake of discussion, assuming such endurance tests are not done adequately, maybe the reason one would get away with not testing for engine temp with endurance type runs is that the DME software has built-in safety parameters (versus your reason - not being used hard enough)? For example, if EGT passes such and such value, boost & timing would both be limited to a "limp" mode. It's hard for me to imagine such simple safety measures not being written in (not talking about tuners who turn off the safety net of course).

    With computerirzed engine control, I would speculate most catastrophic engine failures are hardware related -- wrong installation, loose fittings -- that exceed/bypass the software safety net. That is, unless one is a deliberate idiot, it's impossible to destroy an engine with software because of software safety modes?

    Intriguing topic indeed. For example I am now thinking about the engine power  test/sreen at the factory. If an engine is not up to par, I wonder if they would tweak the ECU, or do they really just discard it.

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Protomotive ECU on 997.2 turbo pdk 100-300kmh ran

    Freak997Turbo:
    RC:
    Freak997Turbo:
     there were problems in the installation??? WTF!!!

    fuckin lier....Why u dont fly to Sweden and install the vtg's for him LOL!!! 


    We kind of don't like this kind of language here on Rennteam.com.

    First strike..


    It doesn't matter if u dont like this kind of language!!!!!

    FUCK U AND FUCK UR LOSER RENNTEAM !!!!

    this guy must be  crazy!!!!
     

     

    SmileySmiley

     

    lost tottally his mind!!

     

    haeuhaeuae very funny

     

    bye bye...


     
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