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    Re: Porsche 963

    Unfortunately! I miss the hunger.


    Re: Porsche 963

    Bet on Porsche


    Re: Porsche 963

    09287234-5E43-4650-B043-331998ADB4DB.jpeg


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    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche 963

    I know it's irrelevant, but man the Ferrari looks good!


    Re: Porsche 963

    Enmanuel:

    I know it's irrelevant, but man the Ferrari looks good!

    Not irrelevant at all Smileybut I am more excited about the entire field of cars. I really hope all brands takes this serious and we as spectators can have a real party over the coming years.

    I am still debating with myself if I should go to LM24 this summer, but I have messed up my own planning, so likely it will be in 2024.


    Re: Porsche 963

    Pentium:

    09287234-5E43-4650-B043-331998ADB4DB.jpeg

     

    This new season is so exciting for so many reasons. So man stories line to follow.

    -Can Toyota beat anyone to win? Their titles and Le Mans wins were basically by default, no real competitions. Will they be able to win on merits?

    -Would this be the year the Glickenhaus shines? They have shown flashes of brilliance. 

    -How would Ferrari fare coming back to the top class of motorsport competition? Will they be a competitive team or just an also ran. Also how good and reliable the car is gonna be?

    -How competitive the LMDh cars will be against the LMH ones? Evenly matched or will be at a deficit?

    -Will Porsche continues their fine tradition of being the good standard for motorsport racing with the 963? 

    -Will GM, via Cadillac, be the first American brand to win Le Mans after Ford did it a long ass time ago?

    -Peugeot, dark horse or just a filler for the field?

    -Vanwall, hmm. Err. Hmm. Err. It's Jacques' attempt to try and win Le Mans, but not sure he has the car to do it. in a perfect world, he would win the WEC championship and Le Mans title, thus achieving the proper triple crown that no one else ever did, titles in IndyCar, F1 and WEC. But that' a couple bridges too far. 

    -It's too bad Honda/Acura and BMW didn't enter the WEC and compete. Would have been lovely to see 2 more manufacturers running. But they still could enter Le Mans separately. 

     

     


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    Re: Porsche 963

    All my fears have come to pass.

    How I wish I had been wrong.


    Re: Porsche 963

    I’ve been watching on and off since the race started yesterday (first time ever watching endurance racing) and was surprised that the Porsche are nowhere to be seen when I resumed this morning. 


    Re: Porsche 963

    A very poor showing. Porsche have a LOT of work ahead of them. Im not sure they can catch up this season. 


    Re: Porsche 963

    The 963 just doesn't have the outright pace of the Acura. technical problem early for the 7 car put it out of contender early, while the spin from car 6 damaged some bodywork and the repairs cost them their chance to even stay on the lead lap.

    At least they aren't the worse team, BMW got that spot tied down.

    The 992 are even worse in the GTD class, they aren't even remotely competitive against the competition.


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    Re: Porsche 963

    https://presse.porsche.de/prod/presse_pag/PressResources.nsf/Content?ReadForm&languageversionid=1398479

     

    Official press release about their problems.


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    Re: Porsche 963

    This is the problem with BOP series.

    When the BOP is wrong, the injured party (ies) really suffers.

    The BOP in GTP is obviously favoring the Acura's. They are much faster than anyone else and can easily come back from any delay just by "pushing" a little harder.

    The BOP for the GT Pro and GTD is just simply ridiculous. 

    Unfortunately this is what awaits us in the near future....until some manufacturers get fed up and start to leave.


    Re: Porsche 963

    It would seems the main advantage of the Acura is grunt from corner exits, they are pulling away from the Cadillacs and Porsches and others are playing catch up the whole straights. Same strategy employed by the 919 before.

    Also believe their tiny engine do wonders on energy deployment. I believe the GTP cars have a set limit on energy used per lap, combination of electric and fossil fuel. Gas tank sizing or weight of fuel aren't limiting factor anymore. 

    Since the cars have 'unlimited' electric boost, (the battery won't run dry and the engines have more than enough power to charge it while running in max throttle), the tuning of balancing the engine output on propulsion vs charging is key, and in a way, fuel consumption. 

     

    Porsche's woes in GTP class seems to be not Porsche related, #7 car needs the battery system replaced, that's not a Porsche part. #6 has a expired gearbox, again not a Porsche part. But the gearbox could have been damaged from the spin and impact. They got their work cut out for them in Sebring and later Le Mans. First they need to beat Acura, let along the LMH cars. 

     

     

     


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    Re: Porsche 963

    Whoopsy:

    It would seems the main advantage of the Acura is grunt from corner exits, they are pulling away from the Cadillacs and Porsches and others are playing catch up the whole straights. Same strategy employed by the 919 before.

    Also believe their tiny engine do wonders on energy deployment. I believe the GTP cars have a set limit on energy used per lap, combination of electric and fossil fuel. Gas tank sizing or weight of fuel aren't limiting factor anymore. 

    Yes, whilst the BOP for the GTP is/was (almost) all the same (same weight, same energy usage over lap, etc.) there was one difference: Because there are so many different engine configurations, each engine was given a different rev limit. I suspect that this was/is one of the factors at play.

    Since the cars have 'unlimited' electric boost, (the battery won't run dry and the engines have more than enough power to charge it while running in max throttle), the tuning of balancing the engine output on propulsion vs charging is key, and in a way, fuel consumption. 

     

    Porsche's woes in GTP class seems to be not Porsche related, #7 car needs the battery system replaced, that's not a Porsche part. #6 has a expired gearbox, again not a Porsche part. But the gearbox could have been damaged from the spin and impact. They got their work cut out for them in Sebring and later Le Mans. First they need to beat Acura, let along the LMH cars. 

    Whilst this is true; the parts are all the same for everyone, and its Porsche's responsibility to make it all work (in conjunction with the actual Porsche bits). 

    After more than 32,000 Km  (more than all the other competitors) of testing, this should not have happened. They need to go back and look at their testing program. 

    Finally: Porsche need to work both on reliability and performance. I know they are pushing the idea that the car was quick over certain periods and under varying conditions but the fact is that the Acura's topped every practice session they participated in; they topped qualifying; and were virtually untouchable in the race.  This is and must be Porsche's clear target. They need to do whatever is necessary to achieve this ASAP (even if it involves spending money).

    The 919 was fragile when it started, but right from the first laps it turned in public, it was clear that it was going to give the then dominating Audi's a run for their money. The 963 has not done that and it is a disappointment.

     

     

     


    Re: Porsche 963

    Porsche have started well in Formula E this season. Three races so far with Porsche factory team finishing P2, P1, P1 and the Andretti customer team registering P1, P2, P2.

    The Daytona 24 result was very disappointing following the 963 hype, notwithstanding the mitigation offered by the lengthy battery change and the accident.

    In the GTD classes, once the marque's forte, Porsche is also much below standard.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: Porsche 963

    Spyderidol:
     

    Yes, whilst the BOP for the GTP is/was (almost) all the same (same weight, same energy usage over lap, etc.) there was one difference: Because there are so many different engine configurations, each engine was given a different rev limit. I suspect that this was/is one of the factors at play.

    I was actually thinking the Acuras have a more favourable torque curve. Conventional wisdom would have thought the bigger engines have more oomph down low and the Acura engine would be more peaky, but perhaps Acura under sized their turbos to get them spool up faster to get more torque early. Can't thunk of another reason why they get off corners that much faster than the others. 

    Whilst this is true; the parts are all the same for everyone, and its Porsche's responsibility to make it all work (in conjunction with the actual Porsche bits). 

    After more than 32,000 Km  (more than all the other competitors) of testing, this should not have happened. They need to go back and look at their testing program. 

    Finally: Porsche need to work both on reliability and performance. I know they are pushing the idea that the car was quick over certain periods and under varying conditions but the fact is that the Acura's topped every practice session they participated in; they topped qualifying; and were virtually untouchable in the race.  This is and must be Porsche's clear target. They need to do whatever is necessary to achieve this ASAP (even if it involves spending money).

    The 919 was fragile when it started, but right from the first laps it turned in public, it was clear that it was going to give the then dominating Audi's a run for their money. The 963 has not done that and it is a disappointment.

     

    At least the engine didn't blow up.......Smiley

    I am willing to give Porsche the benefits of the doubt right now for the hybrid system. Maybe it was luck of the draw they got a bad hybrid unit. But thumbs up to the Penske pit crew, initial estimate before the race puts the time required to change the hybrid system at ~ 30 to 40 mins, they did it under 30. 

    As for the gearbox, it could be that it was damaged or weakened somehow from the spin, unforeseen sideway forces applied to the gears. 

    Anyhow, yes the 963s are a bit of a disappointment right now performance wise, good bit behind the Acuras and also behind the Caddys.  

    The 963 program seems to be mirroring the Formula E efforts, coincidentally another series that they run with off the shelf parts. 

    I am wondering if they get another disappointing effort in Sebring when they run against the LMH cars, they would do a LMH car. Endurance sports car racing is Porsche's bread and butter, I would not be surprised if there is a LMH spec prototype hidden in Weissach somewhere. Maybe not with full bodywork, but a running chassis? Likely. A Frankeinstein-ed 919 basic chassis mated with the LMDh engine or something. That 918 engine is tailored made to be used with hybrids after all. They must have explored that idea already before they decided to do the LMDh. 

     


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    Re: Porsche 963

    reginos:

    Porsche have started well in Formula E this season. Three races so far with Porsche factory team finishing P2, P1, P1 and the Andretti customer team registering P1, P2, P2.

    The Daytona 24 result was very disappointing following the 963 hype, notwithstanding the mitigation offered by the lengthy battery change and the accident.

    In the GTD classes, once the marque's forte, Porsche is also much below standard.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

     

    Haha Ferrari started well in the 2022 F1 season too................Smiley

    GTD is out of Porsche's control. Mentioned before, the BoP is unfavourable. I had a few friends that ran in GTD and the ones that ran in Porsche all said it was no fun racing with both hands tied behind their back. Sitting ducks, or field fillers are the common adjectives. 


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    Re: Porsche 963

    Agree with this disappointment. But I have watched Porsche compete for over 50 years and I’m confident they will improve and improve and eventually win. And Penske, he’s not gonna let his name be associated with poor results.


    Re: Porsche 963

    Whoopsy:
    Spyderidol:
     

    Yes, whilst the BOP for the GTP is/was (almost) all the same (same weight, same energy usage over lap, etc.) there was one difference: Because there are so many different engine configurations, each engine was given a different rev limit. I suspect that this was/is one of the factors at play.

    I was actually thinking the Acuras have a more favourable torque curve. Conventional wisdom would have thought the bigger engines have more oomph down low and the Acura engine would be more peaky, but perhaps Acura under sized their turbos to get them spool up faster to get more torque early. Can't thunk of another reason why they get off corners that much faster than the others. 

    Whilst this is true; the parts are all the same for everyone, and its Porsche's responsibility to make it all work (in conjunction with the actual Porsche bits). 

    After more than 32,000 Km  (more than all the other competitors) of testing, this should not have happened. They need to go back and look at their testing program. 

    Finally: Porsche need to work both on reliability and performance. I know they are pushing the idea that the car was quick over certain periods and under varying conditions but the fact is that the Acura's topped every practice session they participated in; they topped qualifying; and were virtually untouchable in the race.  This is and must be Porsche's clear target. They need to do whatever is necessary to achieve this ASAP (even if it involves spending money).

    The 919 was fragile when it started, but right from the first laps it turned in public, it was clear that it was going to give the then dominating Audi's a run for their money. The 963 has not done that and it is a disappointment.

     

    At least the engine didn't blow up.......Smiley

    I am willing to give Porsche the benefits of the doubt right now for the hybrid system. Maybe it was luck of the draw they got a bad hybrid unit. But thumbs up to the Penske pit crew, initial estimate before the race puts the time required to change the hybrid system at ~ 30 to 40 mins, they did it under 30. 

    As for the gearbox, it could be that it was damaged or weakened somehow from the spin, unforeseen sideway forces applied to the gears. 

    Anyhow, yes the 963s are a bit of a disappointment right now performance wise, good bit behind the Acuras and also behind the Caddys.  

    The 963 program seems to be mirroring the Formula E efforts, coincidentally another series that they run with off the shelf parts. 

    Porsche have strayed from there old adage: Never give up your competitive advantage. They have done this to guarantee sales. Ironically it was their past successes (never giving up their competitive advantage) that built their heritage and reputation, that in turn, guarantees their sales.

    Going spec racing gives up your competitive advantage.

    I am wondering if they get another disappointing effort in Sebring when they run against the LMH cars, they would do a LMH car. Endurance sports car racing is Porsche's bread and butter, I would not be surprised if there is a LMH spec prototype hidden in Weissach somewhere. Maybe not with full bodywork, but a running chassis? Likely. A Frankeinstein-ed 919 basic chassis mated with the LMDh engine or something. That 918 engine is tailored made to be used with hybrids after all. They must have explored that idea already before they decided to do the LMDh. 

     

    As mentioned before, they chose LMDh in order to guarantee access to the American market (at the time of the decision, it was not clear whether IMSA would allow LMH cars to compete) and thus have sales of their car.

    I doubt that they would consider a LMH program. They don't want to spend the money and they don't want to race against their clients (in a more competitive machine)

    Porsche have painted themselves into a corner. They know it (or at least suspect it) and that is why they are pushing for one common set of rules (read cars) for both the IMSA and WEC championships in the future. If they don't get an indication that that is the direction in which the rules will go, I would not be surprised to see them canning the 963 project at the end of year 3.


    Re: Porsche 963

    Common set of rules is common sense, it will make life easier for everyone, organizers and competitors. But it's too bad IMSA has too big an ego, they didn't want to just go with the world's rule. 

    The IMSA rules do have some cost benefits however.

    I actually do see Porsche canning the 963 in year 3 if nothing good came out of it. Year 1 they can chalk it up to teething problems, year 2 they are suppose to be up there fighting for wins, if that didn't happen, yeah, they are cancelling the project. 

    Same deal with BMW, if they aren't going to be competitive, they are cancelling, and IMSA will be right back to being left with Acura and Cadillac. 

    LMH cars are already quite a step down from LMP1 cost wise, while not cheap by any means, it is theoretically possible for a couple big outfits to run, with Porsche factory support. I can see Penske willing to spend that amount of money, and maybe Proton also. 

    But is IMSA willing to go a step up in cost to adopt LMH cars and give up on LMDh? Acura likely won't, GM a maybe, all depends on their Formula 1 entry. 

     


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    Re: Porsche 963

    Common set of rules is common sense, it will make life easier for everyone, organizers and competitors. But it's too bad IMSA has too big an ego, they didn't want to just go with the world's rule. 

    I have no issues with a common rule set. It is clearly the best way forward. My point is that Porsche is heavily invested in this happening and I don't see the WEC playing ball. Toyota, Peugeot and Ferrari have invested too much into LMH ...and unlike Porsche, they wont give up their competitive advantage.

    The IMSA rules do have some cost benefits however.

    Clearly. However it is overly BOP restricted. The rules should have been looser and if by some miracle the common rule set occurs, I do see it becoming more open in the hybrid area. (much to Porsche's benefit)

    I actually do see Porsche canning the 963 in year 3 if nothing good came out of it. Year 1 they can chalk it up to teething problems, year 2 they are suppose to be up there fighting for wins, if that didn't happen, yeah, they are cancelling the project. 

    Same deal with BMW, if they aren't going to be competitive, they are cancelling, and IMSA will be right back to being left with Acura and Cadillac. 

    I wouldn't underestimate BMW. They are doing things slowly, but they will soon be right up in the front. They are not as sales driven as Porsche. They understand they need to win first before becoming attractive to customers. (its what Porsche should have interiorized) Incidentally: they did the same race lap best time as the Porsche.

    LMH cars are already quite a step down from LMP1 cost wise, while not cheap by any means, it is theoretically possible for a couple big outfits to run, with Porsche factory support. I can see Penske willing to spend that amount of money, and maybe Proton also. 

    But is IMSA willing to go a step up in cost to adopt LMH cars and give up on LMDh? Acura likely won't, GM a maybe, all depends on their Formula 1 entry. 

    The problem lies more with the less restrictive rules set for the WEC. Some feel that it invites too much of a spending war between manufacturers and therefore will make the customer cars too expensive (and complex) after a couple of seasons. 

    The "problem" is that those manufacturers committed to LMH are not looking to sell their cars to customers. They want to win...at whatever the cost is that they can afford. In other words : Real old school racing, not some contrived BS

     


    Re: Porsche 963

    Final thoughts: The Prologue at Sebring taking place in 5 weeks (March 12th) will tell us more about how  Porsche Penske has reacted to the Daytona fiasco. 

    It worries me that the language from Porsche still focuses on just reliability. Personally, at this stage, I would rather that they were the fastest car. Reliability comes with time (like on the 919).

    Finally - I hope that my pessimism is misplaced. I would much rather be happy than be right.


    Re: Porsche 963

    The qualifying pace is there, they aren't that far off the Acuras, but the race pace is a different story.

    And yes, Sebring will be the proper gauge, both against the IMSA cars and WEC cars. 

     


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    Re: Porsche 963

    If I was a customer, I would be looking for a very large discount.


    Re: Porsche 963

    963s are improving—3rd and 5th in 3rd Prologue session.  
     

    Im GTE, Porsches were in all top 5 spots.


    Re: Porsche 963

    Porsche 963 Internal Combustion Engine…  E0F26BDD-E91B-4EF4-964B-7C4204B9E420.gif


    Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkqsrpKFGw4

    Smiley


    Re: Porsche 963

    Fun fact, most people got the lineage wrong for the 963 engine. Marshall included.

    The 963 engine is the 918 engine, modified for turbo usage, and chopping 1100 rpm off the top.

    The concept 918 engine WAS based off the RS Spyder V8 however, see the side exhaust outlets of the first concept car.

    carpixel.net-2010-porsche-918-spyder-concept-49334-hd.jpg

    But for performance and packaging reasons, Porsche went with the hot V configuration, expanded the displacement to 4.6L, and also did away with all the ancillary attachments as the 918 was going to be a hybrid and everything can be driven by the electric system and not mechanically. Only item that's driven mechanically was the integrated oil pump. Which was also different than the RS Spyder's V8.

    Porsche ended up designing an all new block that's lighter, new heads for the reverse flow, new pistons, new crank, new connecting rods, and of course new exhaust system and intake tracks, new cams also. So for all intents and purposes, it's a brand new engine that's not based off anything. But in early Porsche 918 literature, Porsche keep the wordings and references to the RS Sypder engine. Tracing that racing lineage helps them sell the car, which wasn't selling in the beginning. 

     

     

     


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    Re: Porsche 963

    Whoopsy:

    Fun fact, most people got the lineage wrong for the 963 engine. Marshall included.

    The 963 engine is the 918 engine, modified for turbo usage, and chopping 1100 rpm off the top.

    The concept 918 engine WAS based off the RS Spyder V8 however, see the side exhaust outlets of the first concept car.

    carpixel.net-2010-porsche-918-spyder-concept-49334-hd.jpg

    But for performance and packaging reasons, Porsche went with the hot V configuration, expanded the displacement to 4.6L, and also did away with all the ancillary attachments as the 918 was going to be a hybrid and everything can be driven by the electric system and not mechanically. Only item that's driven mechanically was the integrated oil pump. Which was also different than the RS Spyder's V8.

    Porsche ended up designing an all new block that's lighter, new heads for the reverse flow, new pistons, new crank, new connecting rods, and of course new exhaust system and intake tracks, new cams also. So for all intents and purposes, it's a brand new engine that's not based off anything. But in early Porsche 918 literature, Porsche keep the wordings and references to the RS Sypder engine. Tracing that racing lineage helps them sell the car, which wasn't selling in the beginning. 

    Do you expect Porsche to use a derivative of this motorsport engine for their next road hypercar?  E0F26BDD-E91B-4EF4-964B-7C4204B9E420.gif


    Re: Porsche 963

    Unless plans changed, which aren't likely, the 918 replacement is still on track to be an EV. They won't attempt another car as complex as the 918. Like I said before, the 918 is the pinnacle of automotive engineering, there wasn't a more complex car before it, and there certainly won't be a more complex one after. The 918 IS the peak.

    This engine was designed from the ground up to be paired with an electrical system. It won't run as a standalone gasoline engine, no matter how much fans wish it to be. 

    It is also an expensive engine to build also.

    To 'adapt' it for normal road car usage, all the ancillaries will need to be designed back in, Porsche might as well start with a blank sheet or use one of their corporate 4.0L instead. 

    Political climate also discourage them to even try another hybrid hypercar. All politicians want are EVs and more EVs.

    Do I wish Porsche make another hybrid hypercar? Absolutely. But looking at my 918, I can't find anything that Porsche can improve on, outside of better battery, 800V system and that's about it. Oh and better seats. I need felt like the car was under power even when it's only running the 608PS V8, and when it's running the full system with electric help, I most certainly think it's plenty fast enough. Not even the lighter and more powerful offerings from Ferrari and McLaren can beat it, that's the greatest thing about the 918. Perfection.

    Aufmacherbild.jpg

    Look at the size of that air filter. It's bigger than anything this side of a semi-trailer. And that's just only for 1 bank of 4 cylinders. There is another one on the other side for the other bank. The engine can't breathe any freer. 

     

     

     


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    Re: Porsche 963

    ***Porsche still has a “good way to go” in terms of pace, according to factory LMDh program director Urs Kuratle, who believes it is “nothing to do with BoP”. Speaking to Sportscar365, Kuratle said: “We are not where we want to be; we want to be on top of the table like everybody. We’re a bit away from that so we have work to do definitely.”

    ***The fastest Porsche lap time so far — a 1:49.487 from Laurens Vanthoor — sits 1.779 seconds slower than the Free Practice pace set by Toyota Gazoo Racing’s Kamui Kobayashi.

    https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/sebring-wec-wednesday-notebook-3/

     

    At this point, I'm not sure why Porsche don't just close down the entire program and concentrate on their toys with batteries. As a fan, this is absolutely heart breaking.


     
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