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    Jul 9, 2005 6:15:58 AM

    Damian
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    Damian
    Loc: Pa, USA
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    Registered on: Feb 10, 2005
    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: ENOUGH POLITICS! THIS IS A SPORTS CAR FORUM!

    Heartfelt prayers for the poor souls who suffered in the attack yesterday.

    We are all grown-ups here, I am confident that we can sacrifice ONE THREAD on this most-popular-by-far 997 Rennteam board to a non-Porsche issue of pressing importance. It is easy enough to avoid visiting this thread if one so chooses.

    In my opinion, we (the USA) can do far better than George W. Bush (or Kerry, for that matter). A few years ago I never thought I would say this, but Arizona senator John McCain may have what it takes to be an admirable president. He isn't limited to thinking strictly in primary colors.

    One post within this thread caught my eye in -- topic maybe a bit dull for some, but an issue which I think deserves more discussion, concerning media portrayal of events.

    Fox News was referred to by a gentleman from Saudi Arabia earlier in this thread as: 'faux news, watched occasionally for laughs'. Sorry if this gets inflammatory or, at best, a little dry and analytical, but I would submit for consideration a stark contrast in terms of media treatment of events:

    - Fox News employs editorial selection of factual accounts....such as a report of U.S.troops/Iraqi police action that day, or a statement by a gov't minister or military official, etc....Yes, arguably with (Fox News divison prez) Roger Ailes' coloration or bias in terms of which stories are presented within a limited/finite 2-minute or 60-minute broadcast time allotment. The viewer can only absorb X number of news accounts within a given programming day , thus formulating their perception of the day's events. The FNN viewer's perception derives from two sources: the objective content of the finite number of hard news features presented, opinion programs which are consistently presented with both sides represented in terms of editorial commentary.

    - Al Jazeera: I watched a considerable (translated) portion of a programming day of the middle-eastern network Al Jazeera, and it is an entirely different entity. Al Jazeera ostensibly presents itself as a news/informational network; however, advocacy would be grossly understating the apparent mission of Al Jazeera. Propaganda would be a more appropriate description. There is an indisputable agenda at work, content of programming itself seemed --to me at least-- to be embellished/tailored specifically for purposes of fomenting action against Western nations, not just against political/military personnel whom Al Jazeera reviles, but against Western culture and people in general.

    Is Al Jazeera taken seriously by the millions of its viewers in the region? Is it mostly a "captive" television audience, or are there actually other choices -- Euro, Asian, US networks available for viewing? Not to further agitate a hornet's nest here-- but considering how pervasive television is to most of us in NA and Europe in how we receive our information about world events-- I am really curious about the level of transparency in reporting of events to populations of the middle-East, Asia, Indonesia, etc.

    Do the citizens of the Arab world have exposure to multiple media outlets of diverse origins in reporting local, nat'l and int'l news?

    Jul 9, 2005 6:27:32 AM

    SVNSVN
    Rennteam Pro
    SVNSVN
    Loc: CA, USA
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    Reply to: Topless9114S

    Re: ENOUGH POLITICS! THIS IS A SPORTS CAR FORUM!

    Jenna,

    I wasn't quite sure where you were going with your post in the beginning; however, I absolutely agree with your conclusion- we must all do our part in this war on terrorism. They must be defeated.

    The terrible events in London must steel our resolve.We can't become complacent. We owe that to those who have fallen!

    Jul 9, 2005 7:34:20 AM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: dreamcar

    Re: ENOUGH POLITICS! THIS IS A SPORTS CAR FORUM!

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    I think enough is enough. Rennteam.com is a sports car enthusiasts' forum, not a political debating arena. I think enough has been said and this should now be stopped. This is not correct subject matter here.



    I think that from time to time, it is very important that people get the chance to express their feelings and opinions among people they know, their "hobby" home. We're no robots, we all have feelings and one single thread about a very touching subject should be OK. We need an off-topic forum and we're working on that. But til then, we can't ignore reality completely.

    Jul 9, 2005 8:39:11 AM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Reply to: yarub1

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    Texas911,

    "The reason the US went into Iraq was not because of oil"
    The main source of energy is the oil, if you control it you control the world. which, by the way, explains why the US Forces whent for the oil fields before anything else.

    "its to show that anyone who messes with the US, like in 9/11, we'll go and invade their country in less than a month"
    Afganistan I can understand but Iraq had no part what so ever on the 9/11 attacks, so why did the US Administartion attack them? By the way, I have news for you the US is NOT in control of Iraq and by looking at the news lately the US is not even in control of Afganistan.

    "Probably to send a message to North Korea as well."
    The US wont go after NK because there is no oil their.

    "The US isn't a country of cowards, like Spain"
    The Spaniards are not cowards, they are just wiser. They value the life of their soldiers and decided that it was not worth for them to die for oil and make the rich even richer.

    "We take care of business, and not only for the US, but for the rest of the world."
    Please keep you business within your borders and I am sure that you will end up like Switzerland with nothing but prosperaty and no wars.



    IF the US would be interested in oil only, the UAE and other countries in the region would be very poor. You guys drive Porsches and other fine cars, you probably have the most luxurious lifestyle in the whole world and many business men from that region bought US, german, etc. companies with their oil money. So please allow me NOT to agree with your claim. Also if the US would be interested in the oil only, the oil prices wouldn't be at over 60 USD for a barrel.
    The US forces went for the oil fields first in Kuwait and Iraq because insurgeons threatened to light them up (which actually happened in Kuwait, right?).

    I agree that the US government used a somehow weird excuse for invading Iraq, they shouldn't have done that.
    But it was only a matter of time until the Iraq would have been a target because Saddam Hussein didn't learn from his mistakes in the past. And although Iraq didn't have any implication in the 9/11 attack, Iraqi security officers met with Al Qaeda people in eastern europe before 9/11.
    You should be also aware that no arab country in the middle east has a working democracy/free press and that all information you get (even from Al Jazeera which claims to be independent), is influenced by the typical arab tradition: gossip, inventions and story telling. Don't get me wrong: I have many friends in the middle east and we don't always agree on political issues but it is a fact that you'll never see an arab Michael Moore to do similar reports about the royal saudi family or any other royal family.

    Of course oil is important, this claim of yours is ridiculous. And of course the US goes after the oil to PROTECT it because without it, an economic catastrophy would hit this planet. And arab people seem to forget one thing: what other national resources do you have besides the oil? Tourism? How many tourists will come to the middle east if the luxurious lifestyle disappears if the oil reserves of the world would be destroyed by terror attacks? How much would arab business men involved with worldwide companies be able to profit from their shares if there is no oil anymore and the companies file for bankruptcy?

    Again, please explain: why is a barrel oil now over 60 USD?
    Why doesn't the US profit from the oil fields in the middle east, taking the oil and shipping it home for free?
    At least they would have the right to pay for their expenses during the iraq war but what does the US do? They even pump money into iraq to rebuild it.

    The US and the coalition don't fully control Afghanistan and Iraq, you're right. But why don't they control it?
    It would be pretty easy to take a few portable nukes and wipe out certain regions from the map with a limited impact to the surroundings and nature. Or they could just shoot every moving subject in the region to make sure there are no insurgeons anymore. Despite the torture scandal in the iraqi prisons and the whole Guantanamo gossip, we have been raised with certain moral values.

    If the US would keep their business withing their borders, where would the middle east be now? Israel would have already nuked half of it by now and the other half would be in chaos because of fights between various groups of interest. Think about it. The problem of the middle east is the lack of education and world view. Another problem is the inferiority feeling (maybe even without realizing it) and the Israel-Palestinians conflict.

    I recently saw a nice report on the rich youth in a certain arab country. They were having diamond plated cellular phones with them, one of them showing a destroyed World Trade centre on the display. Their opinions were completely anti-american and anti-western but they loved Britney Spears and 50Cents, they loved eating hamburgers, they were wearing jeans (the stuff invented by a jew by the way... ), one was playing with a Sony PSP and the other one with a Gameboy. I don't get it, nobody here in the West runs around with anti-arab logos on their cellular phone display and nobody actually really cares about the middle east.

    People from the middle east have to make a choice: if they want a traditional GREAT ARABIA, they have to say good-bye to all those goodies from the west, including Porsche cars.
    If they want to be part of the global community and if they want to share their culture and values with us, they're welcomed. So many arab people are living in the west and most of them are appreciated and valuable members of the society.

    We are ONE planet. We can't isolate ourselves. And we can't let some maniacs destroy our planet's future.
    We all have to have a global perspective, we can't let countries like north korea do what they want because sooner or later, you find their nukes somewhere with terrorist groups, threatening the whole world.
    You can't leave more than half of the worlds energy resources with some maniacs who may want to destroy them.

    We are ONE world, ONE planet. The whole I'm an American, I'm an Arab, I'm a German, I'm a Chinese, etc. stuff is OVER.
    We travel from country to country in no time, the internet connects all people from allover the worlds. We can't live in isolation anymore, our economies, our cultures and even our religions are already mixed together.
    I can buy a Baclavah in Germany and people can buy a Cheeseburger in Riad. Listen to modern arab music which has already taken influences from the western music or have a look at 50Cent's "Candy Shop" and other western music, no doubt about an arab music influence.

    So please, guys, no matter if you are from the US or the middle east: try to view the whole thing under a wider perspective. The time of "my" country is over, it is "my" world now and I always feel at home where I have friends, where I live good and where I don't have to live in fear.

    I know that a lot of people won't agree but having served in the diplomatic service and having lived among so many different cultures, I see things differently now.

    And a note regarding Spain: they are not cowards, this is BS. There is no country which is full of cowards.
    Political decisions are made by the government (this is why I somehow don't understand why people always blame Bush, Bush is NOT the government, he is "only" the president but apparently some people don't have a clue about how a democratic government works), not necessarily by the people.

    It is also funny to see that everbody in Germany for example complaints about high fuel prices but where would the middle east be now if A. muslim fanatics or dictators like Saddam Hussein would be in control of the oil fields and B. if there wouldn't be any oil from the middle east anymore in a worst case scenario?
    We in Germany and other countries always profited from the US actions but never supported them officially. I find that very disappointing. But maybe most of us are really very short sighted and limited to national interests and opinions , losing the global perspective completely.

    We can't "hide" within our borders anymore, all economies are already connected one to each other. As long as we don't understand that and as long as we're still living in our own little limited world (brain-wise speaking), we won't get anywhere.

    The Americans made many mistakes, right. But other countries made them too and especially Arabs have to ask themselves: do we want a prosperous life side by side to the world and to our neighbor Israel or do we want a Great Arabia, ignoring everything happening outside? Because if you don't like it or not: 50 years ago, 95% of the population in the middle east was goat keeping. And if you insist on the great arab culture from the past, it was mainly the turks and the persians who can take credit for it. And I won't forget the words of a persian friend: "we are no arabs, we are persians". We in the west tend to mix that up, it is very convenient for us.

    To make the whole thing short and stop my bla bla: ONE world, ONE planet. We have to stop thinking in our own mind limited borders. As soon as we start to think "global", we don't see enemies anymore. Unfortunately it will take a lot of time and a lot of EDUCATION until people from allover the world realize that.

    Jul 9, 2005 9:05:39 AM

    ISUK Offline
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    ISUK
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    RC,

    A very eloquent summation. I for one am very glad that you consider it important to allow this debate to continue in the mainly good natured spirit we have seen thus far. As you rightly point out we are an intelligent group of human beings and the desire to exchange views on one of the most important issues facing the world today is healthy. Perhaps by discussing the issues behind the troubles we face we may all come together as better, wiser people and that is worth doing in my opinion. Being able to let off a little steam and exchange views with people with different perspectives from across the globe is both fascinating and insightful.

    I appreciate that some people want to keep the topics limited to P cars but there are clearly others who do not. A lounge for off topic discussions such as these would be a real bonus as I have had PM correspondence with a number of the contributors to this thread from all sides which has been healthy, respectful of views and friendly. The size of this thread shows just how much interest it has provoked. Perhaps you should change the title to make it less controversial.

    Jul 9, 2005 11:51:58 AM

    Topless9114S
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    Topless9114S
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    Reply to: SVNSVN

    Re: ENOUGH POLITICS! THIS IS A SPORTS CAR FORUM!

    I think what I was trying to say, which I could have done with a lot less wording is:

    Killing innocents isn't the answer to any problem, whatever the problem is, and it is up to all people around the world to help each other to stop this type of terrorism, regardless of political, religious, or cultural views .

    To me, that is the bottom line here no matter what people's views are on this. Now about that pie....

    Jul 9, 2005 11:55:34 AM

    cartouche
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Thanks RC to let this debate continue.
    I'm deeply interested in reading here opinions from all over the world, even if sometimes they seem moronic IMO.
    Just one idea that I didn't found here until now : our western policy consist in defending our economy and our standards of life (like Porsche driving ) by controlling and protecting as we can oil supplies.
    Therefore, we ALL, soon or later (remember the SUEZ case where french and britains were allied and US and UNO against them), have to conduct a "real politik" that consist in invading other countries, killing, supporting corrupted regimes, dictators etc...
    That cost death and destruction, plus billions of dollars and euros.
    By all the gods, why don't we assign money enough in research for new energy sources ?
    Man has walked on the moon !
    36 years later, why can't he find something else than this disgusting oil to make the machines run ?
    And let the oil profiteers drink it !
    Two euros opinion of one more moron maybe...
    OK it's moronic to think "real politik" only concern oil supplies... But it's an important part of it, isn't it ?

    Jul 9, 2005 11:59:43 AM

    Topless9114S
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    Topless9114S
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    Reply to: RCA

    RC: yay

    Yes RC! That is what I was trying to say in my last post... technology has made us a much smaller world, and we are all in this together... we are all ONE, one planet, with all the same needs for survival. It is time we all acted as one in order to make our world a peaceful place.

    Thanks RC for saying the same thing I was attempting to say in a much more complex way

    Jul 9, 2005 2:48:08 PM

    yarub1
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    yarub1
    Loc: Riyadh , Saudi Arabia
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    Registered on: May 31, 2004
    Reply to: ISUK

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Hi all,

    I just quickly skimmed through the posts and I can tell that the discussion is moving to the next level, which is excellent. Unfortunatly, my time is very precious at the moment and responding to the post will need a lot of time that I dont have. Since most of the poeple in this forum agreed to continue this discussion I will gladly take part of it again on Friday. In the mean time, have a good week-end all and wish me good luck with my MSc.

    Jul 9, 2005 3:18:52 PM

    SVNSVN
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    SVNSVN
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    Registered on: May 22, 2005
    Reply to: Topless9114S

    Re: RC: yay

    I believe one of the main problems in the middle east,besides education, is equality: many countries are handicapped because only half of their populations(men) are allowed to fully contribute economically, educationally, etc. Those countries fall behind countries like Israel and this eventually causes a great deal of jealousy/envy and hate- an unfortunate reaction for some people.

    I do believe that Iraq is potentially the country which can serve as an example to others- but unfortunately it isn't going to happen overnight. Education is definitely the key in the long run. In Iran, it's only a matter of time, a lot of the population is well educated and the old guard can only keep them down for so long. I'm cautiously optimistic that these 14th century radicals( terrorists)are making their last stand. How long will it last, well again, IMO it depends on how long it takes for this small world to work together.

    Jul 9, 2005 3:31:03 PM

    SVNSVN
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    SVNSVN
    Loc: CA, USA
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    Registered on: May 22, 2005
    Reply to: yarub1

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Good luck yarub!

    Yes, we'll look forward to continuing our discussion.

    Just kidding.

    Take care man!

    Jul 9, 2005 3:51:47 PM

    SVNSVN
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    SVNSVN
    Loc: CA, USA
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    Registered on: May 22, 2005
    Reply to: ISUK

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    ISUK,
    Good call on the title change!

    Jul 9, 2005 4:08:27 PM

    ISUK Offline
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    ISUK
    Loc: UK , United Kingdom
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    Registered on: Dec 16, 2004
    Reply to: SVNSVN

    Change of Title

    Yarub,

    Good luck with the MSc.

    SVNSVN,

    I thought I'd do my bit to bring some peace and harmony to the debate I think RC is the one to thank for actually changing it and coming up with the new title.

    Jul 9, 2005 5:29:19 PM

    SoCal Alan
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    SoCal Alan
    Loc: Orange County , United States
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    Registered on: Mar 6, 2004
    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    The tragic event of yesterday in London are a daily occurance in Iraq due to the arrogant planing of the US military.



    Don't blame it on the terrorists. Blame it on the US. I see.



    We invaded the country. What happens there is our responsibility.



    We are now responsible for every terrorist attack in the world because of Iraq? By the way, I thought there was no connection between Iraq and terrorism.

    Jul 9, 2005 5:41:06 PM

    cartouche
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    cartouche
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Come on, he didn't say "everywhere in the world", he said "what happens THERE" !
    Don't play that game, please...it's too easy.

    Jul 9, 2005 5:46:14 PM

    SoCal Alan
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    SoCal Alan
    Loc: Orange County , United States
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    Registered on: Mar 6, 2004
    Reply to: cartouche

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Come on, he didn't say "everywhere in the world", he said "what happens THERE" !
    Don't play that game, please...it's too easy.




    Follow the last post carefully, please. I was speaking of London, England. Then he spoke of Iraq.

    Jul 9, 2005 5:47:42 PM

    cartouche
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    Reply to: SVNSVN

    Re: RC: yay

    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:
    I believe one of the main problems in the middle east,besides education, is equality: many countries are handicapped because only half of their populations(men) are allowed to fully contribute economically, educationally, etc.


    Education seems to be a problem in many parts of the world, my friend... Not only in middle-east...And some of our western countries are not specially known as egalitarian...

    Jul 9, 2005 5:54:18 PM

    SoCal Alan
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Come on, he didn't say "everywhere in the world", he said "what happens THERE" !
    Don't play that game, please...it's too easy.




    Follow the last post carefully, please. I was speaking of London, England. Then he spoke of Iraq.



    Ok, I reread the post and I could see there is some confusion. I withdraw my comment and apologize.

    Jul 9, 2005 6:03:40 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: Its all about them , No and Yes

    The Arab oil producing countries are now making truly
    giant amounts of money from the current prices.

    What they are going to do with it all ????

    Will any of it go to funding university and secondary classes to teach their students about western political
    philosphy and how democracies work? No.

    Will any of it go to expanding the concept of rights for Palestinians to include rights for their own people? No.

    Will it be spent to buy propaganda text books that teach hate to children? Yes.

    Will it be spent on media that encourages hate of the
    west? Yes.

    Will they continue to publicly insult and condemn us as
    they ask us to buy from them? Yes.

    Do they not indulge in all manner of extra luxurious lifestyle and police state behaviour from our money? Yes.

    Would they rush forth with kind words and apologies,if the west suddenly said enough is enough, and fuel use was restricted to essential services and commercial transport only? Yes.

    They act like shopkeepers who spit at their best customers.

    Lets park our cars and start walking as a protest.

    I think its worth it to make a change.

    Jul 9, 2005 6:15:49 PM

    ISUK Offline
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Its all about them , No and Yes

    Jim,

    Interesting points as ever. Perhaps Bob Geldof and Bono should carry out a whistle stop tour of the oil rich nations and ask them all to make poverty history. OPEC could do a lot of good by encouraging all of it's members to donate 12 months profits to sorting out health and education services in many deprived nations. I'm sure most of their customers would applaud such a gesture and it would raise world opinion of a region that is noted for the excesses of it's rich, and the fanticism of a portion of it's poor.

    Instead of focusing on the rights and wrongs of invading Iraq and trying to apportion blame, perhaps we should move the debate on and suggest ways of how we could improve the PR of the west in the middle east and remove the suspicion that we are only after their oil? Just a suggestion.

    Jul 9, 2005 6:40:17 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: ISUK

    Re: Its all about them , No and Yes

    "improve the PR of the west in the middle east and remove the suspicion that we are only after their oil? Just a suggestion."

    Follow the money.

    The region has a intellectual infrastructure problem. They were dirt poor just 50 years ago. The oil wealth catapulted them into contact with the west and the wests money. The regimes were preoccupied in maintaining their status quo
    by whatever means possible to control their new wealth.

    With that in mind, it was more than convenient for them to NOT offer education and a socio culture that discussed concepts of liberty, free expression and free exchange of ideas.

    It was better to keep their citizens preoccupied on Israel and Palestine, romance them with ancient history, and dull them with math, than to have their own citizens question their own government. Algebra and calculous, yes. Rousseau and Voltaire, no.

    No matter what sort of PR the west attempts, the baggage from 50 years of their self imposed intellectual oppression to protect tribal rule over the money and power, mixed with their acceptance of totalitarian and secular rule will be difficult to overcome.

    I think they are the ones with the PR problem.

    They publicly lie to and insult their best customers, insist upon special standards regarding criticism and truth about themselves, and arent seen as willing to contribute much to the betterment of the world except if it means money going into their own bank accounts.

    At some point, they will have to change.

    Iraq and its democratic government is actually trying to. Many of the other Arab countries do not want it to succeed. If the Iraqis can make a democratic government work, the others will feel the pressure internally, and thats not a position they want to be in.


    Jul 9, 2005 8:02:20 PM

    ISUK Offline
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    50 years of history....not that much more for us either

    The oppression of the masses is a common theme throughout the world but the resurgent growth of using religion as a means of controlling these people is alarming. This is a centuries old tool of taking absolute power over subservient populations and it holds great dangers for world peace.

    I agree on your point about the lack of investment in education for the people over the last 50 years but don't forget that until 90 years ago there was a very strong class system in the UK which kept ordinary people at bay and allowed the less than universally clever aristocracy to rule this country. Education and public healthcare were very low priorities. The devastation of WW1 changed all of that and started us on the road to true democracy and opportunity for all. The citizens of the US had a simmilarly bleak economic outlook throughout the great depression and it wasn't until the end of WW2 and the explosion of activity in rebuilding shattered economies, that the American dream was really born. In that respect I don't think we can boast of centuries of good governance ourselves. After all it isn't that long ago that you rebellious upstarts managed to pry yourselves away from the hands of our proud nation

    Iraq has also suffered from a class system that favoured a minority yet it is one of the most progressive states of the region. It was the British who created the country in the first place in an attempt to end tribal fighting of a diverse group of peoples and create a stable country from which to secure oil supplies post WW2. Until Saddam came along the country was progressing fairly well. The fact that the west did business with him during the cold war was out of necessity rather than nicety. His war with Iran suited Reagan's foreign policy at the time so support for him continued. With the fall of communism in the USSR attention shifted back to the Middle East and Bush Snr couldn't let Saddam get away with invading Kuwait as it would have shifted the balance of power in that region. The US, and for that matter the UK and the rest of Europe, are still to this day trying to decide what their Middle East policy is now that they don't have anywhere to hide on the subject.

    My take on the situation is that our leaders have three challenges to deliver on :

    1. Resolve the Israeli question and come up with a solution to let Iraelies and Palestinians live side by side as nation states (lets not forget that Israel has been suffering the sort of attacks seen in London for years and meeting force with force has not worked there thus far). Only the US government can deliver on this one I'm afraid.
    2. Build a sustainable democracy in Iraq by re-engaging the people there with unbiased education and access to free trade with other nations to allow the economy to flourish.
    3. Do a deal with Russia to stop it supplying weapons to these terror organisations and come down hard on the arms dealing middlemen. Russia continues to be in a state of flux as it tries to embrace capitalism and needs more assistance to stabilise it's economy. It's satellite states in the south are also potential flashpoints of religious fervour that may one day focus on the west as well.

    Good luck to them I say because they are going to need it... by the truckload!

    Jul 9, 2005 9:05:20 PM

    SVNSVN
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    Reply to: cartouche

    Re: RC: yay

    Quote:
    cartouche said:
    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:
    I believe one of the main problems in the middle east,besides education, is equality: many countries are handicapped because only half of their populations(men) are allowed to fully contribute economically, educationally, etc.


    Education seems to be a problem in many parts of the world, my friend... Not only in middle-east...And some of our western countries are not specially known as egalitarian...



    I agree cartouche- however, in this case the degree of hate is not even close to the same. Youngsters are taught, brainwashed, to despise and even kill Jews and westerners. They twist a religion to suit their fanatical beliefs. I think it would be rare to find the widespread propaganda of hate anywhere else in the world. Education is the only hope long term.
    Regarding equality, I know this is at least somewhat of a challege everywhere- progress has been made. The middle east is way, way behind most of the world.

    Jul 9, 2005 9:20:34 PM

    SVNSVN
    Rennteam Pro
    SVNSVN
    Loc: CA, USA
    Posts: 2994, Gallery
    Registered on: May 22, 2005
    Reply to: ISUK

    Re: Change of Title

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Yarub,

    Good luck with the MSc.

    SVNSVN,

    I thought I'd do my bit to bring some peace and harmony to the debate I think RC is the one to thank for actually changing it and coming up with the new title.



    ISUK,
    You're quite the gentleman! Great to have you as a valuable member of rennteam!

    Of course, thank you RC - always on top of things.

    Jul 10, 2005 12:39:06 AM

    Topless9114S
    Co-Pilot
    Topless9114S
    Loc: Maryland, USA
    Posts: 157, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 5, 2005
    Reply to: SVNSVN

    Re: RC: yay

    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:
    I believe one of the main problems in the middle east,besides education, is equality: many countries are handicapped because only half of their populations(men) are allowed to fully contribute economically, educationally, etc.



    I wonder what would happen if women were allowed to even have an opinion over there, let alone express one? You are absolutely right SVN, it is all run by, executed by, and decided by men in the middle east. I don't wish to make this a gender issue for sure, but it is an interesting point that women certainly have no say over there about what should or shouldn't be done.

    Did I open another can of worms now?

    The treatment of women over there is adhorrible.

    Jul 10, 2005 2:28:00 AM

    SVNSVN
    Rennteam Pro
    SVNSVN
    Loc: CA, USA
    Posts: 2994, Gallery
    Registered on: May 22, 2005
    Reply to: Topless9114S

    Re: RC: yay

    The winds of change... Wasn't it inspiring, awesome... to see the women of Iraq and Afghanistan go to the polls. Once democracy takes hold, it will only be a matter of time before there is a great improvement through the region, IMO. At least there's hope, a chance now. With the Taliban and Saddam no hope, only misery...


    OK brunner how can we get some of that delicious looking pie?

    Jul 10, 2005 12:41:52 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
    Posts: 59424, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: SVNSVN

    Re: RC: yay

    May I add a few thoughts:

    Yes, the US invaded Iraq and now they can't back off and let the people in the hands of a couple of hundreds of crazy people who want to keep Iraq in chaos.
    I know a guy from Marocco who travels very often to Baghdad on business and he told me that although the population doesn't really have a good feeling having US troops in their country, especially since Saddam brainwashed them all the time, telling people that the Americans and the Israelis want to kill them all and steal their oil from them, they don't want the US troops to leave Iraq now because this would push Iraq into chaos and civil war.

    A lot of Iraqis seem to be disappointed on how the US troops handle security measures. Another problem seems to be the fact that the US troops don't have a clue about "propaganda" and information services. While most Iraqis have satellite TV and watch what Al Jazeera and even a TV station from neighboring Iran are telling them (US is evil...), they don't get the necessary information from Iraqi TV or US run TV news stations.
    Democracy is a nice thing to have...if you know how to use it and to live in it. Unfortunately this can't work in Iraq right now, the US and the Iraqi government should have used MASSIVE propaganda to inform people and not allow news to come from Syria or Iran. At least for the first two to three years to allow the people to get used to a new government and a new political system.

    I'm surprised to see that the US invests so much money into soldier training and modern equipment but doesn't seem to have a clue about modern and effective propaganda techniques. Maybe they should learn from the Russians...

    Iraqis are happy they got rid of Saddam and the Baath party. But they're also afraid of what comes next.
    The US and the coalition forces have to do everything possible to try to calm down people and make them feel secure and safe. Also the US troops have to understand that they can't use the same tactics with civilians like they used in Europe during WW2. Different culture, different religion, different mentality, this isn't an easy task.
    And finally, I have to criticize the american/western public/media too: instead of supporting the troops, they do the contrary. Morale is very important, not only for the soldiers but for the population in Iraq too. Try to imagine how and Iraqi soldier or police man feels if he hears that the US public wants the US troops to get out of Iraq. I mean he has to fear that one day sooner or later, he'll be fighting alone against all those insurgeons which aren't seldom Jordanians, Syrians or citizens from other countries.

    And ALL arab governments and people have to ask themselves:is it really in their advantage if some groups of crazy people kill other people in the name of god and the name of arabs?! I visited many arab homes and was always welcomed with sweet tea, friendliness and incredible warmth. Why not spreading those arab traditions around the world? Why do people in Germany, the US, Japan, even China or Russia immediately think about Islam and muslims when they hear about a terror attack?

    Like I said before: we are ONE world now, connected by the internet, short duration flights and global economic ties.
    It should be our main priority (and I mean the arabs too) to get rid of religious fanatics and crazy people who just want to set fire to this world. No matter how somebody feels about politics, there is no place for terrorism in this world.

    And finally, a word to our arab friends who join us here on the forum: try to look back in history and look at the world after WW2. Germany, Japan, Italy...almost completely destroyed, without hope, with a lost war.
    The Americans and British occupied these countries more than 60 years ago and look at us now. Are we "slaves" to the US? Did the US steal our resources? Did the Americans force us to change our religion? On the contrary, the US helped us rebuild our countries and make them powerful again, in a peaceful way. Look what the Russians did with "their" friends, maybe this helps to understand that the US is not evil like the media loves to let us think.

    Finally, I think that Arabs, Americans, Europeans, etc. have to work together to get rid of the plague of the 21st century, global terrorism. And people in the Middle East but also in the US and Europe have to understand that the world isn't always "black and white" only. And may I say a few words about the rights of the women in arab countries. Although they're not allowed to vote or to drive a car in public or to walk outside dressed in a mini skirt, I can assure you that women have a LOT OF POWER in the islamic world. I talked to so many arab friends and all confirmed that for example mothers are actually the leader in the house in many arab cultures. So maybe we should just relax and not always try to impose our view of life to others.

    And finally, the arab world should look upon Iraq like a new beginning, a chance for changes in the other middle eastern countries. Many arabs still have the feeling of a defeat but this really isn't about who won a war or who occupied a country. This hasn't anything to do with honour, the US didn't attack the Iraqis but Saddam Hussein's regime.
    And I would also recommend to Americans to back down a little bit regarding their military success in Iraq. It doesn't help at all if Americans make public claims in the media like "look, we blew those goat keepers into oblivion in no time...". The Abu Ghraib scandal was completely unnecessary and may show a lack in firm leadership in the US army. You can't win the hearts of a population with such things.To set an example to the muslim world, I would have sentenced those soldiers to 20 years of prison each.
    This isn't about beating an enemy or even killing him, this is part of a war. But sitting as a woman on the bodies of naked prisoners and even taking pictures...this is more than humiliating.

    So the US has to decide what message they want to send and what their purpose is in that region: killing everybody, stealing the oil or trying to help people, to make the region more stable and secure, protecting the oil resources for us all. If even in the west, including the US, some people have the feeling that the US is not interested in the fate of the Iraqi population, this means that the US government did something wrong. They have to win the hearts of the people, otherwise the US troops will have a very tough time staying there much longer. And I'm afraid that the majority of the troops will stay there for at least another 3-5 years, unless something really bad happens and the US withdraws the troops, resulting in civil war and chaos in that region.

    There is only one thing which actually makes me feel a little bit better: the fact that the terrorists in London used convential explosives in a very limited quantity and that they used them against so called "soft targets" gives me hope. Hope that the security measures implied by our governments in the past didn't allow those bastards to put their hands on more effective explosives/manners of attack and that the logistics available to those terrorists seem to be limited too. And I truely hope that no other attack somewhere else proves me wrong.

    Jul 10, 2005 12:59:58 PM

    Holminator
    Veteran
    Holminator
    Loc: USA , United States
    Posts: 1041, Gallery
    Registered on: Sep 28, 2004
    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    yarub1 said:
    The tragic event of yesterday in London are a daily occurance in Iraq due to the arrogant planing of the US military.



    Don't blame it on the terrorists. Blame it on the US. I see.



    We invaded the country. What happens there is our responsibility.



    We are now responsible for every terrorist attack in the world because of Iraq? By the way, I thought there was no connection between Iraq and terrorism.



    Iraqi support for terrorism under Saddam Hussein was directed toward Israel. The Government of Iraq viewed that activity as a war of liberation, not terrorism (its view not mine). A-Qa'ida never had an alliance with Saddam Hussein's Iraq. If Iraqi intelligence services had contact with member of al-Qa'ida that would be normal since it is the job of all intelligence services to develop contacts that will betray either their country or group and provide intelligence to said intelligence service. Such an "association" does not mean they are cooperating to conduct attacks. In fact, al-Qa'ida was opposed to Saddam Hussein's government and saw it as an corrupt, apostate regime that needed to be brought down and made a part of a worldwide Islamic Caliphate. Saddam Hussein knew that and wanted to find out what was going on in the group because it was a potential threat to his regime.

    By invading Iraq, it created a reaction. The war there services as a massive recruiting tool for al-Qa'ida and its sister groups. Invading Iraq was the worst foreign policy blunder of our time. The war is indefendible.

    With regard to the comment about the US is now responsible for the actions terrorist do, I don't understand this comment. Sounds like the same meaningless rhetoric some of our radio talk show hosts use.

    Jul 10, 2005 1:27:23 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
    Posts: 59424, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: Holminator

    Re: all about oil? Yes!.

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    With regard to the comment about the US is now responsible for the actions terrorist do, I don't understand this comment. Sounds like the same meaningless rhetoric some of our radio talk show hosts use.



    I think he meant that since the US invaded Iraq, they are responsible for it (the Iraq, not the terrorist attacks).

    Regarding the Iraq invasion itself: I don't fully agree. Sooner or later, it would have happened anyway because Saddam Hussein played his games further. And believe it or not but I actually think that the US intelligence services were not well enough informed, even if some other people think that they lured the administration and congress by purpose to get a green light for the invasion. My embassy had to deal with certain US intelligence from time to time on an "information exchange" basis, this is nothing secret and nothing unusual. But sometimes I was surprised to hear from a friend how little they actually knew about certain local situations. At first my friend thought that this is part of the strategy not to share all infos they got with other friendly nations but later on it proved to be different: they just were somehow naive or even completely wrong in their analysis. This happens if you get fresh salad on a daily basis from Germany, including oven Pizzas and the newest movies. While my friend was sometimes joining locals in the line to get a fresh warm bread. And talking to them was pretty interesting.

    But anyway: if the US exits Iraq without finishing the job, civil war and chaos will be inevitable. After that it would be only a matter of time until new attacks happen directly in the US.
    Right now there is need for MORE involvement in Iraq, not to back off. You can't let the iraqi people down after you invaded their country by promising them to bring peace and prosperity. This would make the US look even more "evil" in the eyes of the locals there.

    Jul 10, 2005 1:34:44 PM

    JimFlat6
    Rennteam VIP
    JimFlat6
    Loc: Cave , United States
    Posts: 8633, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 25, 2004
    Reply to: RCA

    Re: RC: yay

    RC,the US military is very good at conventional operations
    but not that clever at psychological warfare. When it comes to black or white propaganda, the sophistication needed to do that just isnt there. Propaganda is handled by civilian affairs units. Most of them are reservists with no skill beyond cartoonish leaflets or attempting to rebuild local infrastructure points in hope that the news of good deeds will spread. The US military is unable to integrate conventional, propaganda and irregular warfare into one neat machine.

    The Abu Ghraib scandal culprits were male and female white trash reservists perpetrating their ridiculous stunts for their own xxx adult scrap book. That speaks volumes to todays politically correct military which allows unit cohesion and discipline to breakdown from sexual liasons.
    Add in the fact that their commander,a female national gaurd officer promoted for being a woman and her local politics,(who was later tossed out of the Army for being incompetent at all things military), and you had a recipe for a PR disaster. At least they were not applying the same standards of care as the prisons former management or the countries that border Iraq. By their own idiotic personal behaviour those 2 and their incompetent commander managed to publicly humiliate their prisoners and cause damage to Iraqi and US interests. Twenty year sentences arent enough
    to pay for the damage those two did.
     
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