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    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Nice try, Dr. Phil! C'mon. Paul O'Nieil??? Ya think he was a little disgruntled after he was fired? Bush didn't agree with his economic policies. I didn't agree with his economic policies. I would've fired his ass also.

    Ya think Al Gore really won the election? Which vote count showed that he was ahead. LOL!

    If you want to talk about Danish politics, I will concede to your expertise. But please, c'mon.

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Holminator said:
    LOL! Cute doggie in the Avatar. Let's eat some pie!

    Cheers to Londoners!

    Pie? I'm making me some baby back ribs right now!

    Re: yarub1 - you have very good points....

    Holminator said:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Might I suggest that the right honorable SVNSVN was using the term in its popular context? Regretfully liberals in this country are drunk on concepts of social and political re mapping. If they would live up to the precise definition of the term they so eagerly wrap themslevs in, they might actually win national elections.

    I think the whole "left/right" debate is really not a debate at all. It's nothing more than rhetoric designed to whip up people to go vote with anger since most people are not registered to vote and few, who are registered in the US, actually vote. It's a sign of a weak democracy and weak political officials, who use hatred of different political views to get people involved in the system (dangerous IMHO). Whenever I see this stuff, I try not to turn off my attention span, but it's hard. When you get down to the facts, Democrats (Liberals) and Republicans (Conservatives) do the same kinds of things once in office except on maybe 3-5 key issues. The older I get the more my built-in BS detector works with accuracy. You know what I mean brother?

    Umm. Somehow, I don't get the feeling that I would be voting for Al Gore and getting from him being tough on terrorism, a tax cut, a re-vamped social security via privatized accounts, and a re-vamped tax code. But then again, Bush hasn't come through on the latter two so I'll have to see what happens.

    So, does that mean you flip a coin, come presidential election time?

    Re: Its all about them , No and Yes

    Words of wisdom Jim. I totally agree. My heart goes out to all the folks in London affected by this tragedy. The strength of the British people is truely something. Peace.

    Re: Its all about them , No and Yes

    Large scale disengagement from politics by growing numbers of the people in many long established western democracies is now a clear problem. As standards of living have risen and more and more legislation has come into effect to cushion us from some of the less appealing aspects of life many eligible voters no longer see any difference between politicians of opposing parties. This is hardly surprising as those politicians are now occupying the middle ground and have broadly simmilar policies designed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible.

    The UK political scene is now following the US model and we have "career" politicians who have either had very little or, in some instances, no experience of a career outside of politics. If we go back 20 years or so we at least had Cabinet Ministers who had held senior positions in commerce before entering politics and therefore had a basic grounding in the principles of running a business. These people could see what needed to be done to run a market economy and encourage growth. Today we have a collection of lawyers who run scared of bad opinion polls, don't have a clue about the level of burden they are placing on enterprise, don't want to upset minority interest groups (even at the expense of ignoring the will of the majority) and who cling to the reigns of power at all costs. None of these things stimulate public interest in politics, hence why we have such a poor choice of candidates come election day.

    I personally cannot see an end to this jaded system unless somehow taking public office in later life, after having enjoyed success in a chosen career, is once again seen as a fitting method of giving something back to the society which allowed you to be successful in the first place. This is the only way to regularly breathe new life into politics and stop deals being done to keep political careers going. This might persuade the public to re-engage with the system and cast their vote as the people they are voting for are offering new ideas and building upon previous achievements rather than letting them stagnate.

    I think I've been reading too many Tom Clancy novels...

    Re: Its all about them , No and Yes

    Phil, read up on the purpose of our electoral college. It's to ensure that small but densely populated areas of the country don't bulldoze large and sparsely populated areas of the country with their agendas. Thank goodness. Without the electoral college, states like Montana and Utah might as well cecede from the U.S. and form their own territories, as they would be totally disenfranchised. Criticize as you may, but our system seems to have been rather brilliantly designed, unless you just hate the whole concept of America as a super-power. In which case, you've got a built-in disdain that makes discussion a pure waste of time. Also, explain to me how Bush "stole" that election? How did he do that? And how come the absurdly redundant amount of recounts we endured here in Florida always had the same outcome? He won. Even the local college newspaper here at U.F. finally had to concede that fact, as painful as it was for them. As I've said before, people love to cozy up to their favorite perceptions, regardless of accuracy. Besides, in 2004 Bush won both the popular vote AND the electoral college. No argument there, unless you're pulling your statistics from It's been an enlightening discussion. I hope the investigations in London lead to some arrests soon. Such a tragedy.

    Re: Its all about them , No and Yes

    I dunno who won your election, and as far as I know neither do you.
    You may be right, you may be wrong. All I know is that the election showed how flawed the american electoral system is.
    If you feel good about electing a president like that, thats fine by me.
    I know I would be skeptical.

    I dunno whats true and what is not. I guess it's really a matter of belief, since no regular Joe ever gets all the facts. I just find it amazing how so many people just eat up whatever your government serves.

    I dont know for a fact what Bushes agenda in Iraq is, but if you for one minute actually, for real believe that he (the government) invaded Iraq because of "weapons of mass destruction" and ONLY because of that, I think you're really, really naive.

    Funny how those "weapons of mass destruction" turned into "weapons of mass illusion" and funny how Iraq is loaded with oil. Funny how Iraq suddenly can become a cashcow for many american companies, and funny how a war always boosts a countries economy.
    Of course, these are all mere coincidenses that neither Bush nor his administration thought about before invading.
    I think you have to be Homer Simpson to believe that.

    Please tell me that the average american is smarter than just accepting anything Bush throws at him.
    Pretty darn scary if he isnt.

    And please tell me you have learned from 9.11.
    Learned that you are neither invulnerable nor indispensible.
    There is an outspoken "we know best" attitude from some americans.
    Ever seen "Team America" by the people behind "South Park"?
    They have a fitting teamsong called "America, f*uck yeah! going out to save the motherf*cking day, yeah!".
    It's of course a tongue-in-cheek comment on the current US foreign policy, but it's not that far off the mark IMO.

    I love the USA. Been there many times and will keep going there.
    I like a lot about your mentality, culture and people.
    But the arrogant World Police attitude and "don't tell us nothin' cuz we ain't got nothin'to learn"-attitude really stinks.

    I guess it's easier to have a black-and-white "youre either with us or against us"-attitude, cuz it's easier for a poor, uneducated fella in the Projects to understand than a nuanced debate.
    A good example is Bossnine's argument, that " 2004 Bush won both the popular vote AND the electoral college. No argument there, unless you're pulling your statistics from ".
    So if I'm questioning Bush's victory, I must be a terrorist? Is that how it works?
    Seems to me that 9-11 has made many Americans so overtly patriotic slash paranoid that criticizing the government almost equals treason.

    Is the american spirit really so weak, that it cant take criticism without its countrymen getting ridiculously defensive?
    I truly hope not.
    If so, it definately will have a hard time getting back to being "the land of the free and home of the brave".

    It is time to end this...

    Sorry guys but I think it moves towards the black and white discussion again and although I enjoy political debates, I wish I had some of that apple pie with vanilla ice cream.

    Maybe we all can agree to one thing: the US and the other involved countries can't let the Iraqis alone now.
    Leaving Iraq would leave chaos, a huge disappointment with the west and it would probably also create a lot of new little terrorists, not necessarily because of religion or politics but because of poverty and the lack of education and information.

    Like it or not but I think that the US and the coalition forces have to stay in Iraq at least another 5 years.
    There have been a lot of improvements and I get first hand information from friends and people who have relatives or know people working there. Unfortunately the press isn't too much interested in modernized hospitals or modern IT education but they love to report on dead people and terror attacks. Sex and crime sells, maybe we should change that into sex, crime and terror sells. Sad but true.

    Re: It is time to end this...

    " DITTO " ,,

    My exact sentiments throughout the thread....


    Re: RC: yay

    SVNSVN said:
    RC, I agree with quite a bit of what you said - not sure about your opinion of womens equality/role in the region (my ex-girlfriend is from Iran and she has a different take).

    Iran is not an arab country and Iranians are Persians, not Arabs. I know, I know, difficult story...
    There are various other groups among arabs and persians, it is very difficult to find THE arab and THE persian.
    This may be one reason for the fighting and problems in that region and it is also probably the reason for the desire of a united great arab nation. Unfortunately the US and Israel gave them common enemies but even in such a "unity", there is no unity. A very "delicate" region but also a very fascinating one.



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