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    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Quote:
    GA997S said:
    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Don't listen to my advice - First thing I do is turn off PSM and go into sport mode (not sport shocks though). Then I drive it like I stole it. I especially like wet and icy roads with PSM off! My favorite thing is to enter a turn with too much speed and trail brake while turning to set up the car for the turn. Never gets boring - the key is to be 'ahead' of what the car is about to do - do not let it take you for a ride (like your dog that is walking you instead of the other way around!). Have I made it clear that I hate the way PSM intervenes? After almost 30 years of driving 911s FAST I just love these cars, you can really make them dance...

    All that said - always use your turn signals (correctly, not after you hit the brake!) and drive right! (I know - unless your steering wheel is on the right side)





    Yes...and stay on the gas if the rear kicks out! My favorite is a light rain.

    I can't see how one can get in trouble with rear wheel spin trying to pass unless maybe they're in first gear and the car in front is only doing 10 mph...and then it's still hard. ...oh - maybe on ice?



    Use emergency brake to do the sliding turn?!

    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    While I agree with Grant's previous posts, I do not agree with this one. The AWD 911's understeer more than their rear wheel counterparts (yes, even the 997's), meaning you cannot get onto the gas as early and as hard as you'd want.

    This is counterintuitive: one would think that torque on the front wheels would pull the front end of the car more into the turn as Grant wrote, but that is not the case (A front wheel drive car is the supreme example of this being true: they understeer more than anything on the road).

    As it turns out, the traction of the front wheels can only do 1 thing at a time well: either turn the car, or apply torque. The more of one, the less of the other. The traction has to be shared between these 2 competing functions. Accordingly, putting torque on the front wheels diminishes their ability to change the direction of the car or turn the car, hence, understeer.

    Once the wheels are straight, particularly if the road surface is slippery, the added torque on the front wheels will allow for faster acceleration (transferring the torque to the road) than a rear wheel drive car. On the other hand, if the road is dry and the tires are sticky, AWD will slow you down, particularly in a 911, where traction is terrific because of the weight over the drive axle.

    The most common mistake novices make in a 911 is to treat the gas pedal like an on-off switch. When you feel that you've come to/through the apex of a turn and you are comfortable that you've made it, the initial reaction is to mash on the gas and that will only cause serious understeer, and you may yet make that turn wide or go off the track if you don't get your foot off the gas. The best rule of thumb is that if your wheels are straight, you can get on and off gas and brake as hard as you want, but the more your wheels are turned, the more you must be gentle with both (ie. trailbrake and throttle squeeze, like the trigger of a gun). It is commonly taught that you should imagine a string from the gas pedal to the bottom of the steering wheel: as the wheel turns, the pedal can travel less.

    The second big mistake is not trailbraking, which makes perfect sense for a rear engine car. The result of not trailbraking is just going slower - it's not really dangerous to not trailbrake

    The most dangerous has been described: entering turn with too much speed leading to lift off oversteer, which, as also described, has been significantly attenuated on modern 911's and is often compensated by PSM, but can still overwhelm.

    Bottom line has also been posted already: it you just use common sense and leave PSM on, modern 911's are incredibly stable and predictable and easy to drive.



    This is true so long as you are setting the line in the turn, but once the line is set (not necessarily wheels straight) and the car balances on its suspension, throttle may be applied and the car pulls thru without oversteer dramatics - the differential works quite well in moving power front to rear. Mash the trottle as noted above, esp on slipery tarmac (where the computer is scrambling for traction front to rear), and you are off line quick. That has been my experience with my awd.

    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Alex, I'm a little confused. I thought that if you floor the throttle on the turn, the rear of the vehicle will naturally bite down (better grip) as well as the front will lift slightly (less grip). So the behavior of the vehicle will be understeer, not losing the back end.



    You are correct, as long as you don't press the throttle hard enough to overcome the traction (friction) of the rear tires and the road.

    A 911 will have more rear traction as you press the gas, but if you press it too hard (or if the road is slippery) then you will lose rear traction (powerslide).

    So, that's why you need to carefully modulate throttle. Too little throttle (or braking) can cause low rear traction and too much throttle can cause rear wheelspin (loss of traction). You need to find a happy medium



    Yup, if you 'floor the throttle' (especially in a 480bhp Turbo) then all 4 wheels better be pointing in the same direction as otherwise it will almost certainly break traction. Moderate acceleration does indeed increase grip level though.

    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Tiff's power-slide tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MCm95K9I2s

    Turbo power-slides: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xofq7gxgkQ (3m20s in)


    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Great question, very helpful answer. I've pondered the same issue. So am I right to think oversteering in corner could be from:
    1. Front to rear weight transfer causing front wheel to bite less and lose steering ability, such as from steping on gas pedal prior to apex in corner.
    2. Momentum related: from the car, particularly the heavy rear, wanting to go straight while you are turning.

    One is a "dynamic" situation, resulting from a change, namely weight transfer front to rear. Two is mainly an issue of momentum (how fast you are coming in) and how much traction you have?

    Re. the Turbo's AWD system, its behavior in corners is complicated by the fact that the system is set to become more rear-wheel-drive bias in two situations: cornering and with Sport Mode on. I don't know the percentage though.

    Question please: Is conventional wisdom that compared to RWD, an AWD car understeer a little more before apex, and oversteer a little less after? And slide less (more stable?) because torque goes to the wheel that has traction? Thanks.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Alex, I'm a little confused. I thought that if you floor the throttle on the turn, the rear of the vehicle will naturally bite down (better grip) as well as the front will lift slightly (less grip). So the behaviour of the vehicle will be understeer, not losing the back end.


    You are correct, as long as you don't press the throttle hard enough to overcome the traction (friction) of the rear tires and the road.

    A 911 will have more rear traction as you press the gas, but if you press it too hard (or if the road is slippery) then you will lose rear traction (powerslide).

    So, that's why you need to carefully modulate throttle. Too little throttle (or braking) can cause low rear traction and too much throttle can cause rear wheelspin (loss of traction). You need to find a happy medium


    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Been driving 911s since the 1970s. Lot of good tips here. I have about three to offer up.

    (1) Go find a pre-90 911 to learn on. You will have a greater appreciation for the 997 after about 5,000 miles on that.

    (2) When entering a corner LOOK with your eyes where you WANT to be going,--not where you fear you might wind up. The mind has a tendency to go where it thinks it might go, versus going where you are looking for it to go. It sounds odd but it works.

    (3) Fiercely accelerate OUT of all curves, and practice this in the dry so that when you're in the wet it's no surprise. THEN, go do this in the wet.

    dan

    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Quote:
    enfield said:
    Would driving a C4S be any different & is it more forgiving?? Thanks.



    One of the best ways to learn to drive a 911 (other than PDE) is to take your car out to your favorite twisty road and pratice the following.

    Drive the road without using your brakes.Start slow and increase speed as you get better. Learn to use the throttle which means you never completely lift off or completed set to the floor. Good throttle is smooth throttle. The object is to feel the car and tires as you apply more or less throttle. Do this several times and begin to feel the balance of the car and sense when it may be losing balance. The more proficient and sensitized you become to the throttle and balance of the car, the better your performance. With practice you will find you can go faster.

    Later, the techniques of trail braking and throttle oversteer will be much easier to perform and more obvious in their application.

    Final thought. As long as all four wheels are pointed in the same direction the more freedom to put the throttle to the floor. Once the front wheels begin to turn there must be a corresponding slackening of pressure on the throttle. Otherwise you will end up in the weeds.

    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    One of the keys to 911 driving is to make sure you don't enter a corner too fast. Apply throttle gently as you pass the apex of the corner and begin to unwind the steering wheel.

    Not following this method (being too fast into the entrance of a corner) could cause you to want to lift off the throttle or hit the brakes mid-corner. Either of those things will tend to make the car spin (PSM will probably save you, but it's not guaranteed).

    In general a 911 is very stable while your foot is on the gas (too much gas and you may understeer), but it can be very unstable when quickly lifting off the gas or hitting the brakes.

    Modern 911's are much more tolerant of this behavior (and can even be used to rotate the car in a corner - cause intended oversteer), but it's still best to practice a smooth "Slow in, Fast out" approach to cornering.



    Exactly what works for me. I talked to one driver of an older 911 at a DE event - before I bought mine - who took his foot off the gas after entering a turn too fast. He spun out and wrecked the car badly. I have been more careful as a result.

    Jim

    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    The 997 is a 911 for pansies. Not saying it isn't a great car 'cause it is.

    But if you want to experience a 911 in the raw - get a 1970's model. That'll set you up for anything to come.....

    Re: Tricks of driving a 997

    Interesting reading and at the risk of being contradicted here's my 2 penneth!

    My C2S constantly surprises me about how well sorted and stable it in the power on/off transition at high speed. The work Porsche put in really shows on the latest version especially on the autobahn curves where you can load the chassis. This is my second C2S and this one's on XRR and Pirelli as opposed to the Classics with Michelin. If anything the later car is a bit sharper but a touch less forgiving although the engine feels quicker surprisingly!

    Anyway, once it does start to slide (not on the autobahn I hasten to add) you certainly need to be on its case to correct it early, decisively without over correcting -which can be as bad- and that I think requires a fair degree of skill, practice experience or all three.

    Certainly the older cars were far less easy as were any older generation rear engined cars. But all the lessons from those cars still hold true. Slow in, fast out and use the unusual weight distribution and transfer appropriately. Much good advice has been said here about that but it certainly helps to get the car turning if you start to turn-in on the brakes so that the rear starts to assist you into the corner. However you really do need to get back on the power earlier in a rear drive car to neutralize that and balance the car in the corner I'd say. As the corner starts to open and you can see the exit, the weight transfer rearwards helps grip to the extent that you can use much more power much earlier than you'd have thought possible if you hadn't experienced it, especially in the later cars.

    That to me is the truly impressive thing about 911's and that characteristic I think largely determines their speed down the next straight bit and makes the use of every single hp and lb/ft the car has.

    The new cars have high levels of grip so much of what you can feel in the old cars you can't really feel until you are at relatively high speed (except on ice or really slippery roads). But also the 5 link rear suspension design introduced first on the 993 and subsequently refioned is responsible for much more stability into and out of corners. But once the grip is gone then it reverts to type! And the physics of the weight distribution mean that the rear will dominate and that's what you really have to watch IMHO.

    It really helps to find some space (track with run-off, skid pan etc) and try it out. You can get the feel and learn to find the 'sweet spot' where it will balance on the throttle in the corner and also what happens whe you get it wrong-big understeer-straight on, big oversteer -off backwards. In any case it's great fun finding out about the car's and your limits...

    In the 4wd cars of course the car will have more of a say and I'm not sufficiently experienced in those to give an opinion but from the short drives I've had I'd say much of the pleasure remains but with more room for mistakes up to very high speeds where opnions seem to differ about which cars are more tricky.

     
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