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    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    nberry:

    Ugh, hasn't VW learned from its diesel fiasco?Smiley Fortunately, not much to lose.Smiley

     

    In racing, what's isn't specified in the rules means it's a go until told otherwise. It really isn't cheating. Creative interpretations of the rules would be a better description.

    It's how people learn to exercise their brain, to think outside of the box. Look at how Mercedes split the turbo into 2 halves in F1. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Most importantly, Mercedes managed to make their internal combustion process much more efficient upping it from the ~35% to much better. For info, engine efficiency has been hovering around this same mark for many decades. 

    As for the GT3, glad to read that a manual is back. If I were a customer, I would have never EVER have gone for the PDK. I shift, it's a large part of the enjoyment of driving a sports car, feeling connected to it, the road and yourself. 


    --

    1986 BMW 325i Cabrio Alpine Weiss/Black Leather - German Spec 
    2006 Mercedes-Benz CLS 500 Black/Black Leather 

    Ex: ''91 BMW 535i, '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Hopefully Porsche will release PDK vs manual ratio. I would be surprised if manual even gets close to 25%. To me and many buying a tech loaded manual car in this decade is simply moronic.


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    KMM:

    In white too.

     

    In white onlySmiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    nberry:

    Ugh, hasn't VW learned from its diesel fiasco?Smiley Fortunately, not much to lose.Smiley

    They didn't find a (legal) loophole of the law(s), they cheated. Big difference to a regulations loophole. Smiley

    What VW did with it's Dieselgate was a very stupid thing. Heads should have been rolling, sending people into retirement with millions was a joke.

    If I were Winterkorn, I wouldn't set foot in the US for life...he could be arrested at any time. Not sure if the agreement with the US government and EPA includes an exemption for VW employees but I highly doubt it.

    Look at that poor VW employee who got arrested in Miami last week during his vacation(!)...now he is facing over 160 years of prison. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    I agree that what VW did was egregious and stupid. But these shenanigans go back decades, and in way it is a vast grey area that manufacturers have been talking advantage of. The fault is the regulators' ultimately, for leaving loopholes in the regulations. A couple of examples:

    Example 1: Back in the late 80's, GM introduced the 1 to 4 shift in the manual transmission Corvette. A pin prevented a 1 to 2 shift at small throttle openings and light acceleration, the conditions under which the EPA fuel economy and emissions test were conducted. That kept the engine at very low rpm's resulting in good numbers on those test. Of course, if you were driving the car more normally, using more throttle, the solenoid would pull back the pin and allow full use of the gearbox. IMHO, that was egregious cheating. Especially since everyone soon figured out the mechanism could be easily defeated by disconnecting a wire. How is this qualitatively different than what VW did?

    Example 2: There is a local highway with a pretty steep hill. Often, when I am behind a current performance car and we are accelerating hard up the hill, I smell the same unburned hydrocarbons as if I were following a 60's muscle car. These are cars that meet all current emissions standards; standards which never exercise that driving regime. 

    Fast forward to today. We are stuck with all these smaller displacement turbo engines instead of the more refined 6's they replaced (718, most BMW 3 series sold, new E-class with a 4 cyl!) This is all driven by stupidly designed test cycles, which can be run with the turbos barely kicking in. So the numbers you get are those of a small displacement relatively high compression engine; great emissions, great fuel economy. But it is becoming clear that under normal driving conditions, these engines are not much cleaner or more economical than the ones they replace.

    So they all cheat, and it's just a matter of how egregiously. VW may have taken it a bit too far. BTW, I'm not saying that what they did is ok; in fact I am for prosecuting them and holding their leaders personally liable. The question is why did it take this long to start putting an end to these games?

    And don't get me started on the stupidity of regulators in Europe for allowing diesel cars for all these decades; that is the original crime imo.

     

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    In Germany, you cannot get Diesel cars out of the heads of (ordinary) people after decades of telling people how fuel efficient and cheap they are. They were...fuel efficient and cheap...compared to petrol engines, no doubt about it. Most of the cars of workers and employees in Germany are...Diesel cars.

    My wife's Cayenne S Diesel eats around 10-12 liters / 100 km in the city. My former Cayenne GTS with V8 petrol engine and almost the same power around 17-19 liters / 100 km.

    Autobahn speeds around 240 kph in the Cayenne S Diesel? Around 12-13 liters / 100 km. In the Cayenne GTS with V8? Over 21 liters / 100 km.

    One of my best friends has a BMW 320d station wagon. His consumption? Around 5-6 liters / 100 km. No kidding.

    Now try to convince people now in Germany that Diesel cars are bad. They still have that image of those monster V8 engines in the US and many over here are questioning the reasons behind the US government fining VW. Many Germans believe that the US does it to protect their own car industry, which is of course ridiculous in my opinion.

    A change in mentality already started over here though: Since our own government is discussing banning Diesel cars from city centers, many people are cautious what car(s) they buy next. Most of my friends are going for petrol cars, one reason why many of them were surprised my wife got herself the Cayenne S Diesel. Well, not much will happen for the next 18 months (lease duration of that Cayenne S Diesel) in Germany, so I think we're good. 

    The truth is: I would not get a Diesel car anymore. Also, I would not buy a ELV. The whole car industry is starting to change now and nobody can really predict the future, so I would be very very cautious with any buying decision for the next couple of years. Unless of course we are talking serious sportscars here. 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Oslo is banning diesel cars in city center starting tomorrow...


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Growing up in Beirut in the 60's and early 70's, I was so glad diesels were banned (one thing Lebanon got right). The only diesels were large trucks (mostly MB) from neighboring countries. When one of those drove by, the acrid diesel exhaust fumes were immediately noticeable and it always felt like you were breathing poison.

     



    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Guys,

    a cayman GT4 with a 4.0 engine ?

    if so no one will buy any 911 GT, this cayman would be a blast !

    i don t believe at alll those statements.

    Your opinions ?

    Cheers,


    --

    997 Carrera S Triple Black Sold now ... Good car 997 GT3 triple black wow what a car !!!


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Autocar: "2017 Porsche 911 GT3 to get 4.0-litre flat six engine..." (...plus details on GT2 RS and GT4 RS...)

    Set to be revealed at the Geneva show in March, the 2017 911 GT3 will get a power increase to more than 500bhp, up from the 475bhp of its predecessor



    (18 January 2017)

    The new Porsche 911 GT3 that's due to be launched at the Geneva motor show in March will have a 4.0-litre flat six engine, according to a well-informed source close to the factory. It will not be the same 4.0-litre engine that's found in the current GT3 RS and 911 R, but an evolution capable of producing "at least" the same 500bhp and up from the 475bhp of the last ‘standard’ GT3.

    The main focus of the development work has been to improve further the durability of the engine, resulting in a motor that "has done thousands of kilometres, absolutely flat out, with no problems at all".

    As already speculated, the 991-generation GT3 will be available for the first time with a choice of a six-speed manual gearbox or a seven-speed PDK dual-clutch automatic transmission. A plan to stiffen the suspension and make a much more hardcore product has apparently been dropped in favour of a more user-friendly set-up [e.g. "Touring Pack" optionin line with traditional GT3 thinking.

    Meanwhile, work continues apace on the forthcoming GT2 RS, which "should be ready by the end of the year", our source said.

    Initially Porsche engineers were looking for a massive power gain, even compared with the 612bhp of the original 2010 GT2 RS, but a plan to realise 700bhp was sidelined when it became clear the engine would need a water injection system to keep internal temperatures under control.

    Instead, engineers are believed to have settled on an output of around 650bhp, almost 90bhp more than the engine produces in the current 911 Turbo S. That would provide for a specific output of more than 170bhp per litre.

    Another source confirmed that this would be the last outing for the engine, which is based on previous-generation technology, and that the next Turbo would be based on the new flat sixes seen in the current 911 Carrera, S and GTS, but with an enlarged capacity.

    After the GT2 RS, the next GT model will be a Cayman GT4 RS, complete with a 4.0-litre engine. So fast is the current four-cylinder Cayman S that Porsche officials privately concede that, if shod with an equivalent tyre, it would be as quick around the Nürburgring as the existing Cayman GT4, so a big performance leap is expected.

    Clearly it won’t have the full 500bhp-plus provided to the new GT3, but expect an output of at least 430bhp, a clear 50bhp rise over the Cayman GT4 and more than enough to establish a clear performance margin to lesser, non-GT Cayman models.

    Link: Autocar-Porsche-GT-RS-article

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    4.0 litre Cayman GT4 RS,,, wow.......In the UK they will fight like mad for an allocation for one of these..


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    A lot of BS from these articles, imv... 


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    throt:

    4.0 litre Cayman GT4 RS,,, wow.......In the UK they will fight like mad for an allocation for one of these..

    Would be a manly upgrade for you buddy SmileySmiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    bluelines:
    throt:

    4.0 litre Cayman GT4 RS,,, wow.......In the UK they will fight like mad for an allocation for one of these..

    Would be a manly upgrade for you buddy SmileySmiley

    I'm just going to make sure I have enough hair on my chest, bud...Smiley...Smiley...


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Seems to me his 'source' is Rennlist! 


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Whoopsy:

    Seems to me his 'source' is Rennlist! 

    So, all the talk of 4.0L for Cayman is BS?  Next GT4 to be Turbo-4???  Not surprised...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Grant:
    Whoopsy:

    Seems to me his 'source' is Rennlist! 

    So, all the talk of 4.0L for Cayman is BS?  Next GT4 to be Turbo-4???  Not surprised...

    Hahaha,, they would never lump a 4.0L in the Cayman and then tone it down well under 500hp, pointless.. So, Grant, its not just BS , its "pure BS" Smiley...


    --

     

    throt

     

    "I Have Done It!".

    991 GT3 pick up in October 2014.


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    throt:
    Grant:
    Whoopsy:

    Seems to me his 'source' is Rennlist! 

    So, all the talk of 4.0L for Cayman is BS?  Next GT4 to be Turbo-4???  Not surprised...

    Hahaha,, they would never lump a 4.0L in the Cayman and then tone it down well under 500hp, pointless.. So, Grant, its not just BS , its "pure BS" Smiley...

    I actually could imagine it being done.  The advantage to Porsche is the ease of building the same motor for several models (with small mechanical and/or software differences) - would vastly simplify things and probably boost margins.

    But, I think making a really fast Turbo-4 GT4 would be a better marketing move to sell the 718 Boxster/Cayman models (seems like they could use some help)


    --

     

     

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    On one hand, doing a 'hot' version of the GT4-RS with a 4.0L is not hard, and even the performance increase can be justified as they races the GT4 now. 

    On the other hand, yes they do need to promote the flat 4 turbo, and what better way than to do a 'hot' version? But that would disconnect the actual race car to the production car. Doable if they migrate the race car to the turbo engine. 

    All depends on their Motorsport division's direction going forward.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Looking into the tea leaves, this would be a great line-up for GT and RS models over the next couple of years...

    2017 911 GT3 4.0 naturally aspirated 500hp flat-six with manual, Touring Pack options, e.g. wing delete, rear seats, etc.

    2017 911 GT2 RS 3.8 twin-turbo 650hp flat-six, PDK-S, lightweight carbon, magnesium, pit limiter, etc.

    2017 911 GT3 RS 4.0 naturally aspirated 525hp flat-six, PDK-S, lightweight carbon, magnesium, pit limiter, etc.

    2018 Cayman GT4 RS 4.0 naturally aspirated 450hp flat-six with manual gearbox, lightweight carbon, etc.

    2018 911 R Speedster 4.0 naturally aspirated 500hp flat-six with manual gearbox, numbered limited edition, etc.

    2018 911 GT3 RSR 4.2 naturally aspirated 550hp flat-six in mid-rear configuration, numbered limited edition, etc.

    ...beyond that, we should also see the launch of some exciting GT and RS versions of the new Porsche 960 Coupe! 

    wink kiss wink


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    What does your magic tea leaves say about the non-RS GT4? 


    --

     

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

     


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Looking into the tea leaves, this would be a great line-up for GT and RS models over the next couple of years...

    2017 911 GT3 4.0 naturally aspirated 500hp flat-six with manual, Touring Pack options, e.g. wing delete, rear seats, etc.

    2017 911 GT2 RS 3.8 twin-turbo 650hp flat-six, PDK-S, lightweight carbon, magnesium, pit limiter, etc.

    2017 911 GT3 RS 4.0 naturally aspirated 525hp flat-six, PDK-S, lightweight carbon, magnesium, pit limiter, etc.

    2018 Cayman GT4 RS 4.0 naturally aspirated 450hp flat-six with manual gearbox, lightweight carbon, etc.

    2018 911 R Speedster 4.0 naturally aspirated 500hp flat-six with manual gearbox, numbered limited edition, etc.

    2018 911 GT3 RSR 4.2 naturally aspirated 550hp flat-six in mid-rear configuration, numbered limited edition, etc.

    ...beyond that, we should also see the launch of some exciting GT and RS versions of the new Porsche 960 Coupe! 

    wink kiss wink

    + 2018 981.2 Spyder RS 4.0...Smiley

    Blueflame


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    no way - as I say since 2015 - I predict this years GT3 to be the last NA engine.....- after that new tech with turbo's which is easily faster than anything you could do with a 4.0


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    BjoernB:

    no way - as I say since 2015 - I predict this years GT3 to be the last NA engine.....- after that new tech with turbo's which is easily faster than anything you could do with a 4.0

    +1


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    .2 GT4 and .2 Spyder will get NA4.0 Engine with Manual and PDK...blush My guess 430 and 445 HP.

    But we will have to wait for 2018/MJ 2019

    Blueflame


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Guys,

    Getting a 4.0 to a cayman GT4 is no way according to me. or the price will be at the same level than a GT3.

    So far, the limitation in the GT4 regadring the output was also coming from the airintake and manifold that need to be reworked becasue of space. I hardly think the 4.0 will fit.

    Porsche should advertise a powerful Turbo 4 cylinders for mainly two reasons accorrding to me :

    - justify and reinforce the 4 cyl range

    - make a proper competitor to TT RS.

     


    --

    997 Carrera S Triple Black Sold now ... Good car 997 GT3 triple black wow what a car !!!


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    BjoernB:

    no way - as I say since 2015 - I predict this years GT3 to be the last NA engine.....- after that new tech with turbo's which is easily faster than anything you could do with a 4.0

    Just look at the 991.2 GTS, 450HP "Carrera" with a sportier setup already beats the 991.1GT3


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 991.2 GT3 Thread Closed

    Carlos from Spain:
    BjoernB:

    no way - as I say since 2015 - I predict this years GT3 to be the last NA engine.....- after that new tech with turbo's which is easily faster than anything you could do with a 4.0

    Just look at the 991.2 GTS, 450HP "Carrera" with a sportier setup already beats the 991.1GT3

    .2 GT4 and Spyder are not about "beating" Laptimes...they will get the NA4.0 Engine...

    Blueflame


     
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