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    7 Greatest Race Cars

    It would be interesting to me to listen your opinionSmiley

    To me:

    1. Porsche 917

    2. Auto Union type C Streamliner

    3. Porsche 956/962

    4. McLaren MP 4/2

    5. Williams FW15c

    6. Mercedes W196/300slr

    7. Penske PC23


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    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    I guess we should add Ferrari 2004 F1 Car which won 15 races (13-Schumacher and 2-Barrichello) out of 18 races.


    --

    ONUR

    WAITING FOR THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    pride355:

    I guess we should add Ferrari 2004 F1 Car which won 15 races (13-Schumacher and 2-Barrichello) out of 18 races.

    PossibleSmiley your list, opinions?Smiley

     


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    I would include the Audi R8 sports-prototype with 5 LeMans wins and numerous other successes (63 wins out of 79 races), and the BMW E30 M3 race car with 12 international titles, 5 NBR 24 H and 4 Spa 24 H wins.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    reginos:

    I would include the Audi R8 sports-prototype with 5 LeMans wins and numerous other successes (63 wins out of 79 races), and the BMW E30 M3 with 12 international titles, 5 NBR 24 H and 4 Spa 24 H wins.

     

    But audi really had no competition, i think.

    Reginos, your rating of race cars?


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    reginos:

    I would include the Audi R8 sports-prototype with 5 LeMans wins and numerous other successes (63 wins out of 79 races), and the BMW E30 M3 race car with 12 international titles, 5 NBR 24 H and 4 Spa 24 H wins.

    --

    "Form follows function"

    +1

    You wrote faster than me Reginos Smiley


    --

    ONUR

    WAITING FOR THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Write the full list the interesting thing here is the limitation in 7 cars. To add one you need to remove another;)


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Here's mine:

     

    1 Porsche 917
    2 Porsche 911 (in all it various iterations)
    3 Porsche 956/962
    4 Auto union 1936 Type C
    5 McLaren Mp4/3
    6 Lotus 72
    7 Tyrrell 003

    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    • 917
    • 956/962
    • Audi Quattro (not a track racing car, but must be included)
    • Audi R8 Prototype 2000-2005
    • Lotus 78/79
    • MP 4 TAG-Porsche 1984-86
    • BMW M3 E30 race car.

    Not necessarily in the above order.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    I`ll give it a go as well, with some italian additions:

    • 911 2.8 RSR
    • 917
    • MP 4/4
    • M3 e30
    • F 250 LM
    • Alfa Romeo 8C 2300 LM
    • Lancia Delta Integrale

     

     

     


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    I'll give it a go (in no particular order) as well (had to have 8 though):

     

    • Porsche 956
    • Sauber C9
    • McLaren F1 GTR
    • Porsche 917
    • BMW E30 M3 DTM
    • Mercedes-Benz W202 DTM
    • Porsche 911 2.8 RSR
    • Mazda 787B

    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Wow,

    what a great subject. I find it very difficult to answer that, especially since it depends whether these cars are supposed to be stunning to drive, ultimately successful in racing, a milestone in its era or highly innovative during its time. There have been cars that might´ve been a thrill to drive but unreliable, others might´ve been highly innovative but too fragile in its early days... Some innovations might´ve been hugely relevant but spread over a series of models. Colin Chapman´s Team Lotus for example brought some very ingenious ideas that changed F1 until today, but each model in itself might not have the same relevance. I´m also far too uninformed to give a significant opinion about pre-war racecars or F1 of early years as well as CART/IRL. I might have to revise my opinion but here are seven spontaneous choices:

    Lotus 72
    McLaren MP4
    Williams FW14

    Porsche 917
    Porsche 956/962

    Ford GT40
    Porsche 911 GT3 Cup


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Ferdie:

    Wow,

    what a great subject. I find it very difficult to answer that, especially since it depends whether these cars are supposed to be stunning to drive, ultimately successful in racing, a milestone in its era or highly innovative during its time. There have been cars that might´ve been a thrill to drive but unreliable, others might´ve been highly innovative but too fragile in its early days... Some innovations might´ve been hugely relevant but spread over a series of models. Colin Chapman´s Team Lotus for example brought some very ingenious ideas that changed F1 until today, but each model in itself might not have the same relevance. I´m also far too uninformed to give a significant opinion about pre-war racecars or F1 of early years as well as CART/IRL. I might have to revise my opinion but here are seven spontaneous choices:

    Lotus 72
    McLaren MP4
    Williams FW14

    Porsche 917
    Porsche 956/962

    Ford GT40
    Porsche 911 GT3 Cup

    Thank you, Ferdie!

    I think that the most important thing in racecar is combination of success, technology, design and who was in competition. Porsche said that the best racing car must win and break into pieces) von Brauchitsch said that there is no win without competition.

    Colin Chapman in my opinion is very overrated person, he has adopted lots of things into F1 but those technologies he adopted were created before him. F.e. passive ground effect- auto union streamliner 1938, monocoque- lancia d50, mid engine- benz tropfenwagen. To my opinion Ferdinand Porsche, Rudolf Uhlenhaut, Edmund Rumpler, Jim Hall, Vittorio Jano, Piech are much more Influential persons in this business.

    You have written mclaren mp4, which one?

    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    kudryavchik:

    I think that the most important thing in racecar is combination of success, technology, design and who was in competition. Porsche said that the best racing car must win and break into pieces) von Brauchitsch said that there is no win without competition.

    Colin Chapman in my opinion is very overrated person, he has adopted lots of things into F1 but those technologies he adopted were created before him. F.e. passive ground effect- auto union streamliner 1938, monocoque- lancia d50, mid engine- benz tropfenwagen. To my opinion Ferdinand Porsche, Rudolf Uhlenhaut, Edmund Rumpler, Jim Hall, Vittorio Jano, Piech are much more Influential persons in this business.

    You have written mclaren mp4, which one?


    Those are valid points but I believe that many innovative people in the industry have drawn their ideas from other fields or people. In my above list, I had the MP4/1 in mind which had the groundbreaking carbon monocoque. The MP4/4 was certainly more successful but I still keep asking myself whether it was the car, the engine or the drivers that made it so successful. If I remember Alonso and Hamilton squeezing every little ounce of performance out of their car in 2007, I can vaguely imagine how much Prost and Senna must´ve extracted out of their car in 1988. Guess the Honda engine played an important  role as well. There are so many pieces coming together, it starts with an innovative idea, significant funds to backup the development, very good preparation of all aspects (components, dimensioning, testing) prior and over the course of the season as well as appropriate drivers. I guess in so many cases only parts of it come together...

    Chapman might not have introduced these concepts for the very first time but he knew how to apply them to make his cars go faster. Of course, his very light constructions had some drawbacks but nonetheless he followed his own, successful concept.


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Ferdie:
    kudryavchik:

    I think that the most important thing in racecar is combination of success, technology, design and who was in competition. Porsche said that the best racing car must win and break into pieces) von Brauchitsch said that there is no win without competition.

    Colin Chapman in my opinion is very overrated person, he has adopted lots of things into F1 but those technologies he adopted were created before him. F.e. passive ground effect- auto union streamliner 1938, monocoque- lancia d50, mid engine- benz tropfenwagen. To my opinion Ferdinand Porsche, Rudolf Uhlenhaut, Edmund Rumpler, Jim Hall, Vittorio Jano, Piech are much more Influential persons in this business.

    You have written mclaren mp4, which one?


    Those are valid points but I believe that many innovative people in the industry have drawn their ideas from other fields or people. In my above list, I had the MP4/1 in mind which had the groundbreaking carbon monocoque. The MP4/4 was certainly more successful but I still keep asking myself whether it was the car, the engine or the drivers that made it so successful. If I remember Alonso and Hamilton squeezing every little ounce of performance out of their car in 2007, I can vaguely imagine how much Prost and Senna must´ve extracted out of their car in 1988. Guess the Honda engine played an important  role as well. There are so many pieces coming together, it starts with an innovative idea, significant funds to backup the development, very good preparation of all aspects (components, dimensioning, testing) prior and over the course of the season as well as appropriate drivers. I guess in so many cases only parts of it come together...

    Chapman might not have introduced these concepts for the very first time but he knew how to apply them to make his cars go faster. Of course, his very light constructions had some drawbacks but nonetheless he followed his own, successful concept.

    Yes, i am going to agree about Chapman, but he is not alone.

    mp4/1 being first carbon car was not very sucessful due to old cosworth engine. But success came with the next car.

    Mp4/4 lacked competition. 1988 was the last year for turbo, so almost all teams started to use atmo engines. Williams being the greatest competitor for mclaren that time used judd engine. Porsche, bmw, renault all have gone out from championship. Ferrari was noncompetitive since 1979 having disasterous 80's and almost all 90's... Thats why mp4/4 was so sucessful. Anyway great car.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    kudryavchik:

    mp4/1 being first carbon car was not very sucessful due to old cosworth engine. But success came with the next car.

    Mp4/4 lacked competition. 1988 was the last year for turbo, so almost all teams started to use atmo engines. Williams being the greatest competitor for mclaren that time used judd engine. Porsche, bmw, renault all have gone out from championship. Ferrari was noncompetitive since 1979 having disasterous 80's and almost all 90's... Thats why mp4/4 was so sucessful. Anyway great car.


    That´s what I mean. I focussed on the MP4/1 because of its carbon chassis. I agree about the "limited" competition the MP4/4 had to face. The only car I could name instantly of belonging on this list is the 917 because it ticks every box I mentioned above in terms of relevance for racing in general, for the manufacturer as well as the specific racing series. It was a blast to drive, it featured clever new ideas and was successful. The 956/962 would be a close second for me.

    By the way, I am somewhat reluctant to include the M3 E30 because it was essentially a great roadcar that was turned into a race car. The advantage started to diminish as soon as Mercedes and other manufacturers joined those relevant racing series. The GT3 Cup on the other hand has some surprising potential in a variety of formats, especially if you take into account the R-model conversion pack.


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Also, many specialists mention maserati 250f, i don't know why, but fact. I think merc was much more interesting this period.

    Talking about bmw, I agree. To my mind this company historically is much weaker in motorsport than audi and merc. The only thing I remember about Bmw is their turbo engine made from serial cast iron block that developed 1300 hp in qualies. But being heavy and always hungrysmiley it has lost to arrived competition from porsche, honda and renault.

     

    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Seven you say? Here we go:


    Ferrari F2004

    Williams FW 14B

    McLaren MP4/4

    Lotus 78

    Ferrari 312T

    Porsche 917-935-962 (can't decide really)

    Lancia Delta Integralle


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Ferdie:
    kudryavchik:

    mp4/1 being first carbon car was not very sucessful due to old cosworth engine. But success came with the next car.

    Mp4/4 lacked competition. 1988 was the last year for turbo, so almost all teams started to use atmo engines. Williams being the greatest competitor for mclaren that time used judd engine. Porsche, bmw, renault all have gone out from championship. Ferrari was noncompetitive since 1979 having disasterous 80's and almost all 90's... Thats why mp4/4 was so sucessful. Anyway great car.


    That´s what I mean. I focussed on the MP4/1 because of its carbon chassis. I agree about the "limited" competition the MP4/4 had to face. The only car I could name instantly of belonging on this list is the 917 because it ticks every box I mentioned above in terms of relevance for racing in general, for the manufacturer as well as the specific racing series. It was a blast to drive, it featured clever new ideas and was successful. The 956/962 would be a close second for me.

    By the way, I am somewhat reluctant to include the M3 E30 because it was essentially a great roadcar that was turned into a race car. The advantage started to diminish as soon as Mercedes and other manufacturers joined those relevant racing series. The GT3 Cup on the other hand has some surprising potential in a variety of formats, especially if you take into account the R-model conversion pack.

    The M3 e30 was actually created from scratch in 1985 (though went on sale in 1986). Bmw needed to produce 5000 examples oif the car in order to fit with the Group A Touring Car rules. Initially the plan was to build the car in Bmw Motorsport`s Garching factory but the volumes were just too big and the car was built in Munich though not line-built in the same way as the other e30s and special teams worked on sub-assemblies. Now to the interesting part , the M3 e30 shared only one panel with the standard e30 type and this was the bonnet all the rest was custom made for this car taking into the account the homologation needs. The basic bodyshell of the M3 is not interchangeable with the standard e30.  I could go on on how this car was special and how the targets set at the beginning were purely racing objectives. This car in my opinion is no less special  than the 911 GT3 (or an 2.7 RS for example). From 1987 to 1993 it won 1400 races worldwide making it the most successful racing car ever made. (source : Original Bmw M-Series book, by James Taylor)


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Ferrari F2004 of course, Ferrari F2002 was also a masterpiece.  


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    You guys left out The Iconic race car of the fifties... The Mecedes Benz 300SL. It had many engineering inovations unique to for that period.

     


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    JimFlat6:

    You guys left out The Iconic race car of the fifties... The Mecedes Benz 300SL. It had many engineering inovations unique to for that period.

     

    Great car without doubt, greatestSmiley. Innovative was w196/300slr with desmo valves and aero break. 

    I would consider w125, w154... Those cars were much greater imo.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    The racing history would have been probably re-written had Mercedes-Benz not retired from racing in 1955 following the tragic Le Mans of that year. Mercedes today is nowhere near where it used to be (which is a shame in my opinion). 


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    m4ever:

    The racing history would have been probably re-written had Mercedes-Benz not retired from racing in 1955 following the tragic Le Mans of that year. Mercedes today is nowhere near where it used to be (which is a shame in my opinion). 

    Agree, Till 1955 that was the strongest team with greatest technologies and greatest budget. All other...maseratis, alfas, ferraris, brm etc were like a farm compared to silver stars;) Unfortunately AU was already dead that time...

    Today Mercedes is not Mercedes...unfortunately, its Ilmor+Brawn...Nothing common with mercedes except the name. Real racing mercedes has finished its history when they closed their Group C program and started to outsource racing engines to Ilmor.Smiley

    But maybe Merc spirit lives in todays DTM cars? Sometimes it also revived in Le Mans cars...Smiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    Is anybody there who has changed opinion about personal list? Thinking about Mazda 787Bheart 930hp 4 section rotor...Great car, no doubt.


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    kudryavchik:

    Is anybody there who has changed opinion about personal list? Thinking about Mazda 787Bheart 930hp 4 section rotor...Great car, no doubt.

    You are right this was a great racing effort. It always puzzles me that Mazda put so much effort in the Wankel (road and racing) and then abandoned the technology. I did admire them a lot , thery were very brave.


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    kudryavchik:
    m4ever:

    The racing history would have been probably re-written had Mercedes-Benz not retired from racing in 1955 following the tragic Le Mans of that year. Mercedes today is nowhere near where it used to be (which is a shame in my opinion). 

    Agree, Till 1955 that was the strongest team with greatest technologies and greatest budget. All other...maseratis, alfas, ferraris, brm etc were like a farm compared to silver stars;) Unfortunately AU was already dead that time...

    Today Mercedes is not Mercedes...unfortunately, its Ilmor+Brawn...Nothing common with mercedes except the name. Real racing mercedes has finished its history when they closed their Group C program and started to outsource racing engines to Ilmor.Smiley

    But maybe Merc spirit lives in todays DTM cars? Sometimes it also revived in Le Mans cars...Smiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com

    I would add to your list also Porsche ,it  was not really a player in 1950s (compared to Mercedes)

    It would be great to see (competitive) Mercedes works cars at Le Mans against Porsche


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    m4ever:
    kudryavchik:
    m4ever:

    The racing history would have been probably re-written had Mercedes-Benz not retired from racing in 1955 following the tragic Le Mans of that year. Mercedes today is nowhere near where it used to be (which is a shame in my opinion). 

    Agree, Till 1955 that was the strongest team with greatest technologies and greatest budget. All other...maseratis, alfas, ferraris, brm etc were like a farm compared to silver stars;) Unfortunately AU was already dead that time...

    Today Mercedes is not Mercedes...unfortunately, its Ilmor+Brawn...Nothing common with mercedes except the name. Real racing mercedes has finished its history when they closed their Group C program and started to outsource racing engines to Ilmor.Smiley

    But maybe Merc spirit lives in todays DTM cars? Sometimes it also revived in Le Mans cars...Smiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com

    I would add to your list also Porsche ,it  was not really a player in 1950s (compared to Mercedes)

    It would be great to see (competitive) Mercedes works cars at Le Mans against Porsche


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant

    Being diehard fan of Porsche I have to admit that they were far behind Merc that time, fact. Merc was the best with AU. Yes, I also want to see how Porsche will winSmiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    m4ever:
    kudryavchik:

    Is anybody there who has changed opinion about personal list? Thinking about Mazda 787Bheart 930hp 4 section rotor...Great car, no doubt.

    You are right this was a great racing effort. It always puzzles me that Mazda put so much effort in the Wankel (road and racing) and then abandoned the technology. I did admire them a lot , thery were very brave.

    They didn't abandon. We all have to say thanks to FIA... 

    But we can hear rotor roar in Grand am;)


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: 7 Greatest Race Cars

    kudryavchik:
    m4ever:
    kudryavchik:
    m4ever:

    The racing history would have been probably re-written had Mercedes-Benz not retired from racing in 1955 following the tragic Le Mans of that year. Mercedes today is nowhere near where it used to be (which is a shame in my opinion). 

    Agree, Till 1955 that was the strongest team with greatest technologies and greatest budget. All other...maseratis, alfas, ferraris, brm etc were like a farm compared to silver stars;) Unfortunately AU was already dead that time...

    Today Mercedes is not Mercedes...unfortunately, its Ilmor+Brawn...Nothing common with mercedes except the name. Real racing mercedes has finished its history when they closed their Group C program and started to outsource racing engines to Ilmor.Smiley

    But maybe Merc spirit lives in todays DTM cars? Sometimes it also revived in Le Mans cars...Smiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com

    I would add to your list also Porsche ,it  was not really a player in 1950s (compared to Mercedes)

    It would be great to see (competitive) Mercedes works cars at Le Mans against Porsche


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant

    Being diehard fan of Porsche I have to admit that they were far behind Merc that time, fact. Merc was the best with AU. Yes, I also want to see how Porsche will winSmiley


    --

    sportcars-history.com

    I am also a diehard Porsche fan, however in 1950s although Porsche was successful with the 356 , 550 Spyders this was in the minor league; let`s not forget the  engines were not really powerful (did have great chassis though) compared to Mercedeses, Ferraris , Alfa Romeos, Maseratis, Jaguars and Aston Martins. They had class wins in Le Mans, but the real deal in Le Mans has always been the "who arrives first" . This is why the 1970 victory was such an achievement for Porsche and it was long awaited.


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 72' 911 Targa 2.4 S, 12' Audi S4 Avant


     
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