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    Re: McLaren's little secret

    I totally understand your lease rationale.  Still don't understand why you would not at least want to know the residual amount to determine if your have the best possible deal for your situation.  In your case you would want a high residual which should lower your payment.  How can knowing the residual amount not be a good thing? 

    Personally I would simply buy a used Turbo for the 70K euro and use the 130K and the monthly payments for investing.  The words car and investment do not compute in this realm.

    FYI - one of my Sonata leases (15K miles per year) is an excellent example of why leasing can be a no brainer

    - Sonata $20K list price.  Zero down, $200 per month for 36 months ($7200 total) - residual after 36 months is ONLY $12K - ($800 less than if you applied 100% of the payments to the principal!)  - due to the residual the interest rate (cost of money) is NEGATIVE (in my favor).  You bet your ass the residual amount matters regardless of if I keep the car cause I might want to sell it (have the option to, why not use it if in my favor)  In three years the car will still have the remainder of it's 10 year 100K warranty making the $12K residual very tempting even if just to buy the car and profit from a quick re-sale.    Additionally I save sales tax on the inital 20K car and only have to pay sales tax on the $200 per month ($12).

    Due to the low residual I expect to make money back when I return the car (I.E. I can maybe trade it in for $14K and the leasing company will give me $2K back because I only owe $12K)  The last Sonata lease I had I terminated a year early for an Automatic Sonata (yes I tired of the manual in that car) and due to low miles I got $1500 back after 24 $200 payments!

    Unless you know the residual you don't know your cost of money - how much of your monthly payment is going to principal vs. interest cost. 

     

    PS - I looked up a 12C lease here in the US - zero down, $2800 per month. 60 months, 120K residual.

    Here are the Lambo lease terms -

    Estimated payments based upon MSRP of $211,905 (includes destination charge) for a 2013 Lamborghini Gallardo LP 550-2 Coupe with the following options: Metallic Paint, Navigation System, Callisto Shiny Rims and Rear View Camera.

    Price excludes title, taxes, registration, license fees, insurance and maintenance. Lease payments of $1,989.39, for 36 months = $71,618.04 based on capitalized cost of $180,267.58 (requires dealer contribution which could affect price). Total due at signing = $19,788.46 (first month's payment, acquisition fee of $995 and capitalized cost reduction of $16,804.07). No security deposit required. At lease end, lessee pays excess wear, $2 per mile over 7,500 miles and $750 termination fee. Purchase option at lease end $133,500.15 plus taxes. Specific vehicles and options are subject to availability and your price may vary. For additional information see your participating Lamborghini Dealer.

     

     

     


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    RC:

    We do mileage leases over here, no residual value leases (which would be pretty dumb).

    Meaning: You agree on monthly payments, an initial payment (or none) and the amount of mileage you are permitted to drive per year, usually 10000 km. After the lease ends, you get the chance to buy the car or you return it, no questions asked and you are done with it. Of course the lease company calculates a residual value for THEM but it doesn't really bother you as a customer if the monthly payments and initial payment suit you. There are no surprises when the lease ends, unless you return the car in a very very bad shape.

     

    yes thats how its done here also for regular cars including porsches and they are called closed end leases, they have limited mileage and you either return the car, or purchase it for the residual value agreed upon in the contract. exotics have a different lease setup and most of them are open ended, meaning no mileage restrictions but a balloon payment at the end for the residual. you cant just return an open ended lease like you do with regular cars. u have to either purchase it or trade it in hoping the street value is at least the same or more than the balloon payment. the advantage of open end leases is a much lower payment for cars known to hold value well.


    --

    2011 CTT

    2013 12C spider

    2013 Audi A5 Cab

     

     


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Itsme:

    I think I have to change my Porsche dealer.

    When I returned my last leased Boxster here in Munich the expertise made by DEKRA was unbelievable.  For instance  they wanted me to pay 100€ for my 18month old break fluid. I think they wanted a new car returned and not a threed year old Boxster with nearly 60.000km. Worst car experience ever. PZM - never ever again

    Ouch. Smiley

    PZM? Well...I was there too for a while but I think they got too big, too many celebrities, too many customers. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Leawood911:

    I totally understand your lease rationale.  Still don't understand why you would not at least want to know the residual amount to determine if your have the best possible deal for your situation.  In your case you would want a high residual which should lower your payment.  How can knowing the residual amount not be a good thing? 

    Personally I would simply buy a used Turbo for the 70K euro and use the 130K and the monthly payments for investing.  The words car and investment do not compute in this realm.

    Seriously? I was glad to get rid of my five year old 997 Turbo and now you tell me I should get the same old car again? 

    For 70k EUR, I would get a beat up 997 Turbo, not even a Turbo S with low mileage (which would be more in the 120k  range).

    I want to drive the LATEST Porsche models, not the oldest. This is another reason I lease. Smiley

    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    RC - we both have the same motif for the way we own/lease. 

    You lease new cars to avoid depreciation and tying up excess cash and I own used Porsches to avoid depreciation and save cash.  Though I hardly believe you avoid depreciation by putting 70K euro down which you never see again, lol.

    I believe that cars are mechanical objects which in the case of a 997 Turbo have A LOT of life in them and that I get the same joy driving it as you did when you first got yours new.  How old is a Singer?  To each his own. 

    In that way I consider myself lucky.  It has worked for me since I was 15 - all 911 except the first (a beautiful orange 914 which I would drive today if I had it).  My cost per mile - hardly noteworthy.  My oldest just got her masters and a job in chicago as a city planner and jungest is just starting college to be a shrink.  Neither will have any student loans or debt.  My smile when I drive the Turbo everywhere without regard to mileage - priceless.

     

     


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    I'm just not into old cars, with very very few exceptions. Can't help it.

    I'm a sucker for new stuff...cars...gadgets...whatever. Only the wife stays the same (we just renewed our vows in Las Vegas), everything else needs to be the latest, the newest, the greatest.   Oh, I keep the kids too...kind of mandatory. indecision


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    I'm kind of like Leawood. If you live a couple of years in the past, you are always getting newer and upgraded cars too. Trade in that 996 turbo for a 997 turbo and it's a huge upgrade and much more modern. Just a couple of years behind the times (but the big initial depreciation has been paid by someone else).

    My father had the right idea, he went through 12-14 911's over the years and only lost money on two of them (and one was a race car). Like real estate, you don't make money selling it, you make money buying it. Buy right and for the most part you are only tying up money while you drive and paying for maintanance and gas...

    Doesn't work all the time or in all instances (sometimes you just want a new car that you choose or a car you know will continue to depreciate) but it does let you drive for a lot less. That's one of the reasons I'm really thinking hard about a 612. I bet it would cost me a lot less than 70k euro to drive one for 3 years.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    When I got the 997 Carrera GTS Cab, I got bored fast because there was already the new 991 on the market. I tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter but unfortunately it did. It was the first (and last) try to get something old(er).

    Yes, I could save tons of money by choosing a 997 Turbo S instead of a 991 Turbo S but in the end, wouldn't be happy with my choice, especially when I would "meet" the new car on the street. 

    I have a huge passion (and curiosity) for new stuff (cars, gadgets), so old things are just not doing it for me.

    This is why I do not buy my cars, I get bored fast.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    There is no doubt new cars are great. These days a lot of advances are made with each generation, no doubt. But some older cars are still good. To each his own. One thing for sure is that days of acceptable depreciation on new Porsches are over.

    Re: McLaren's little secret

    SciFrog:
    There is no doubt new cars are great. These days a lot of advances are made with each generation, no doubt. But some older cars are still good. To each his own. One thing for sure is that days of acceptable depreciation on new Porsches are over.

    One possible reason for the higher rates of depreciation for newer Porsches is, while performance increases are a given, the cars no longer feel as special or as rare as before.  Porsche is not alone with this issue.

    The eighth gear issue gives me an "excuse" to visit the McLaren showroom a few blocks from home.


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    RC:

    When I got the 997 Carrera GTS Cab, I got bored fast because there was already the new 991 on the market. I tried to convince myself that it doesn't matter but unfortunately it did. It was the first (and last) try to get something old(er).

    Yes, I could save tons of money by choosing a 997 Turbo S instead of a 991 Turbo S but in the end, wouldn't be happy with my choice, especially when I would "meet" the new car on the street. 

    I have a huge passion (and curiosity) for new stuff (cars, gadgets), so old things are just not doing it for me.

    This is why I do not buy my cars, I get bored fast.

    I'm totally happy with that. I understand your love of new, I don't wholly share it but I understand it. People like you allow people like me to buy well maintained, great, nearly new cars.

    I remember Jeremy Clarkson doing a piece on the Alfa 166 saying it was an amazing car to buy used as they were wonderful AND had depreciated so much. The only problem was that everyone knew they would depreciate so much that no one bought them new therefore there were no used ones to buy...Smiley


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Mithras:
     People like you allow people like me to buy well maintained, great, nearly new cars.

    Don't worry, I understand this very very well. The new owner of my old 997 Carrera GTS Cab told my dealer to thank me in his name for such a wonderfully optioned and well maintained car. I actually liked that a lot, very thoughtful. Smiley

    He even got a huge rebate from my dealer because the car was sitting on his lot for almost a year (because of the lack of full leather and the too sporty bucket seats).

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Actuelly i thought people lease because they dont have the cash to get the car payed they want right now.. A few people i know lease exotic but would have troubles to make a Cash payement for this car.  Are not most of the cars leased


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Actually as the cars become more complicated ala the 928 the fear of repair costs make people shy away from paying what the car is really worth.  If Porsche wanted to keep resale prices higher they would simply have to up the warranty to 10yrs and 100K miles!  It would be cheap and the dealers would benefit a great deal with extra repair work.  Lastly, they would have to be certain to make a product that does not fail else it will eat their lunch.  If Hyundai can do it for a 20K car Porsche can assure quality on a 200K car.  If at the end of a 3 year lease it still had seven years remaining on the warranty the car would be MUCH more attractive on the used car market and perhaps the original owner would even keep it longer.

    My guess is they keep the warranty short so that the cars are not kept for long and the turn-over is higher. 


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Dario:

    Actuelly i thought people lease because they dont have the cash to get the car payed they want right now.. A few people i know lease exotic but would have troubles to make a Cash payement for this car.  Are not most of the cars leased

    If I couldn't afford to buy the car, I wouldn't lease it. I just prefer to have my capital working on the stock markets instead of being "locked" in a car I plan to drive for maximum three years only anyway. I don't know about other countries but over here in Germany, car leases are pretty common, especially for companies but also private people. 

    There are also very often VERY VERY attractive lease offers available from manufacturers, especially BMW in the past. I often cannot believe how low the monthly payments incl. the initial payment (if any) are, I try to understand how this works for some companies but what do I care?! Smiley

    Example: A couple of weeks ago, I got an offer for a 36 months lease of a Fiat 500 Abarth. 199 EUR per month, no initial payment, 10k km per year. This car would have costed me 7164 EUR after three years. New price tag? 23k EUR. I was actually seriously considering getting one just for fun but then I remembered that it doesn't make sense and that my wife wants a Cab at some point.

    Also had a nice lease offer for a 991 Carrera S: 20k initial payment, 999 EUR per month for 36 months, 10k km per year. Total cost after 36 months: 55964 EUR. New car price was 135k EUR.

    In the past, people bought their cars over here to get rid of some "black" money but nowadays, if you pay cash for a car, you immediately alert the tax authorities. 

    I cannot see any advantage to BUY a car, unless I plan to keep it longer.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Returning to the topic at hand, has anyone here followed Porsche's virtual intermediate gear technology now being added to several PDK-equipped models?

    Porsche engineers have added software code in the PDK controller module to slip the two clutches to joint engage the two sequential gears to effectively create a "gear ratio" between the two physical gears.  So if the McLaren's seventh gear is a traditional overdrive, as some have suggested, top speed would be reached in sixth, not seventh gear.  Hence, if a similar virtual intermediate virtual gear strategy was employed,  the displayed eighth gear is actual 6.5, displaying lower rpms per corresponding speed when compared to sixth gear but eliminate the overdrive limitations of the seventh gear.   


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Interesting concept. Need to let that 'simmer' in my mind for a while... (is it viable?)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    DuckieRS:

    Interesting concept. Need to let that 'simmer' in my mind for a while... (is it viable?)

    Okay, let's add some maths and technical information to the analysis.

    According the official MP12-4C information provided by McLaren on the transmission specifications:

     - Sixth gear ratio is 0.9 yielding 42.24 km/h/1000 rpm

    - Seventh gear ratio is 0.7 yielding 55.68 km/h/1000 rpm

    If one were to determine the 6.5 gear ratio, the average of the sixth and seventh gears gives 48.96 km/h/1000 rpm.  Dividing 318 kph, as taken from the photograph on the first posting of this thread, by 0.04896, one determines an engine speed of 6495 RPM, which is +/- 2% of the indicated tachometric figure.


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    CGX car nut:

    Returning to the topic at hand, has anyone here followed Porsche's virtual intermediate gear technology now being added to several PDK-equipped models?

    Porsche engineers have added software code in the PDK controller module to slip the two clutches to joint engage the two sequential gears to effectively create a "gear ratio" between the two physical gears.  

    Wow!  That sounds crazy at first blush.  

    The clutches would have to be dissipating some serious slip heat in this mode.  If they were both fully engaged, the transmission would be locked up.  Having both clutches partly engaged, one could split the difference between gear ratios in any proportion depending on the relative pressures applied to each clutch.

    I can see using this technique to smooth transitions when shifting between gears in "boulevard mode".  Trying to transmit continuous high power, especially in a top-speed run, would sap grotesque amounts of engine power, making it impossible to reach top speed, and frying or exploding both clutches.  

    It's probably just fine in a low power, lower speed regimen as a "creamy" shift enhancer.

    EDIT -- When one thinks about this a little, this "virtual gear" thing happens to some degree in every dual-clutch transmission during shifts.  Unless one designs the transmission to allow the engine to be completely disconnected from any gear for a short time during shifts, there is bound to be a slight "both-at-once" overlap as one clutch releases and the other one engages.  The relative timing and pressure profile of the hydraulic control fluids can get anything you like in the way of high or low overlap.  I assume that a clever engineer called a strong overlap situation a "virtual gear" just to have some fun.  It was his way of describing the control program's "secret sauce".


    --

    Mike

    Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Multiple clutches; each partially engaged! laugh   So very wrong!  

    I've had throw out bearings fail to last as long as clutches. I still wonder how that has been dealt with in PDK.

     


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    The 911 was tackled ever since. So far it is more popular than ever before. 

    If the competition does right - really be spot on on the same price, value and performance tag - they will have a market but so far they always be week in one of the areas.

    As consumer I think a strong competition would be great for the 911 as on any other product, too - more pressure equals in better prices and normally also higher interest to innovate. 

     


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Lars997:

    The 911 was tackled ever since. So far it is more popular than ever before. 

    If the competition does right - really be spot on on the same price, value and performance tag - they will have a market but so far they always be week in one of the areas.

    As consumer I think a strong competition would be great for the 911 as on any other product, too - more pressure equals in better prices and normally also higher interest to innovate. 

     

    I really think that Porsche needs some pressure, so competition is good. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: McLaren's little secret

    Gladstone:

    Multiple clutches; each partially engaged! laugh   So very wrong!  

    I've had throw out bearings fail to last as long as clutches. I still wonder how that has been dealt with in PDK.

    These PDK clutches are liquid-cooled "wet" clutches.  They are common in industrial equipment and have a very long life.

    In normal to spirited driving, they are both partially engaged for only a brief moment.  This overlap time is short enough that the resulting temperature rise is within the transmission's ability to cool the clutches.  The overlap is great for not making "banging" shifts when the designer doesn't want that to happen.  In my view, it's a clever way to get some of the feel of a torque converter without the constant pumping losses.  PDK is just as efficient, or more so, than a lock-up torque converter and with clever clutch-overlap programming, just as tunable for feel.

    At very low power demand, a PDK might be tricked into behaving like a CVT for advantageous behavior in low traction conditions.  Just my speculation.


    --

    Mike

    Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0


     
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