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    Look at what Ferrari are doing

    They have revealed what might be the successor to the Enzo. It's smaller, significantly lighter, running a much smaller engine (V6) that might also be a hybrid. And of course it will be fast, but where fast is actually fun - on the track and on twisty roads, not just some meaningless performance number from Nardo.

    If they make it they will turn the supercar category on it's head. It will make the Sumo-sized Veyrons look like dinasaurs.

    If Porsche wants a set of principles for the 911 they should hire Gordon Murray and get him to lay down the strategy for them. Murray designed the McLaren F1, various F1 winning cars for Brabham, and is currently designing an eco-friendly city car. There's probably no one better right now to design the car for Porsche.

    But knowing Porsche they will sit their engineers and designers in layzee boy recliners and tell them to take it easy and just add more power. It's a shame Porsche don't really care about engineering excellence anymore.

    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    LeChef, i did not know they had layzee boy chairs in Germany, who's got the distributorship ? (jk)

    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    Quote:
    catdog said:
    LeChef, i did not know they had layzee boy chairs in Germany, who's got the distributorship ? (jk)



    It's actually a "faul"ership...

    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:...
    But knowing Porsche they will sit their engineers and designers in layzee boy recliners and tell them to take it easy and just add more power. It's a shame Porsche don't really care about engineering excellence anymore.



    I disagree. If the 911 is to stay as the icon it is today, it does not require major changes. It requires a bit more power and a bit less weight, but it should keep the same basic design. That's why I buy a 911 and not something else.

    Re: Future of Carrera

    FWIW - I couldn't buy gayman or boxster. I have two kids. For the limited time I need to transport them, neither cheaper cars will do. So...alternatives?
    Aston - V8? - no rear seats - DB9? - I'm still in my 30's
    Audi? No rear seats.
    BMW M5? - too boring - M3? see M5....
    Ferrari 430? - no rear seats. V12 ferrari? Financial murder.
    Mers SL - no rear seats. CLK? boring. CL? (see V12 Ferrari)
    Nobel? - No rear seats

    What am I left with?

    2008 facelift C2S. Depreciation isn't what it was, but still such a complete usable supercar - what else could I need?

    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Le Chef said:...
    But knowing Porsche they will sit their engineers and designers in layzee boy recliners and tell them to take it easy and just add more power. It's a shame Porsche don't really care about engineering excellence anymore.



    I disagree. If the 911 is to stay as the icon it is today, it does not require major changes. It requires a bit more power and a bit less weight, but it should keep the same basic design. That's why I buy a 911 and not something else.



    Agreed. The magic formula for the 911 is a little lighter and a little more power. It has to be an improvement over the previous generation. I have no doubt that the basic 911 shape if continued could last for another generation. I'm talking human generation, not car generation. I still encounter little kids (6 years old and younger) who LOVE the 911 (997). I drove past (slowly) a family just this morning in the local strip mall. As they past, the kid turned around and pointed at my car and said "Porsche". I swear that this kid was no older than 3 years old. I think this kid (and many others his age) will want to buy a new 911 when they can get enough money to do so. We're talking 30 years from now. If you radically change the shape of the 911, you no longer have the historic link to the past. I'm so fortunate that Porsche decided to keep the 911 shape all these years.

    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    That's an excellent point! I certainly hope the 911 is around in 13 years when I have enough money to buy one. It's been my dream car since before I took the training wheels off my bike.


    Re: Future of Carrera

    "2008 facelift C2S. Depreciation isn't what it was, but still such a complete usable supercar - what else could I need? "

    Very, very small kids and a valium before driving. Sorry your excuse for buying a Porsche (the two back seats) is like saying you want ice with your wine.

    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Le Chef said:...
    But knowing Porsche they will sit their engineers and designers in layzee boy recliners and tell them to take it easy and just add more power. It's a shame Porsche don't really care about engineering excellence anymore.



    I disagree. If the 911 is to stay as the icon it is today, it does not require major changes. It requires a bit more power and a bit less weight, but it should keep the same basic design. That's why I buy a 911 and not something else.



    That's what they said about the telegraph and the type-writer.

    Let's see where the innovators take the market and then let's see if Porsche is around to follow them

    Re: Future of Carrera

    Quote:
    bridggar said:
    FWIW - I couldn't buy gayman or boxster. I have two kids. For the limited time I need to transport them, neither cheaper cars will do. So...alternatives?
    Aston - V8? - no rear seats - DB9? - I'm still in my 30's
    Audi? No rear seats.
    BMW M5? - too boring - M3? see M5....
    Ferrari 430? - no rear seats. V12 ferrari? Financial murder.
    Mers SL - no rear seats. CLK? boring. CL? (see V12 Ferrari)
    Nobel? - No rear seats

    What am I left with?

    2008 facelift C2S. Depreciation isn't what it was, but still such a complete usable supercar - what else could I need?





    You could be left with Porsche's successor to the 911.

    Small price: Kids grow up. forget about the rear seats.

    Make a *mid-engined* V8 with 500+hp (more?). One that looks more substantial and less feminine and soooo different from ill-named Cayman and panty-ish Boxster. Give it more human physique room and room for luggage.

    I don't care, call it the "poor man's Carrera GT." Make it look like an "evolved" 911 (teardrop shape etc).

    Sell it for us$100-150K

    Voila: the flat 6 rear-engine-anomaly 911 will be forgoten.


    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    Quote:
    neunhundertelf said:
    That's an excellent point! I certainly hope the 911 is around in 13 years when I have enough money to buy one. It's been my dream car since before I took the training wheels off my bike.





    It will be and you'll have one!

    Re: Look at what Ferrari are doing

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Le Chef said:...
    But knowing Porsche they will sit their engineers and designers in layzee boy recliners and tell them to take it easy and just add more power. It's a shame Porsche don't really care about engineering excellence anymore.



    I disagree. If the 911 is to stay as the icon it is today, it does not require major changes. It requires a bit more power and a bit less weight, but it should keep the same basic design. That's why I buy a 911 and not something else.



    That's what they said about the telegraph and the type-writer.

    Let's see where the innovators take the market and then let's see if Porsche is around to follow them



    If you think that way, why do you bother with 911s? Either you are a 911 guy or not. I suspect you are not one, you just drive (currently) one.

    There are many reasons to switch. I love the car but tomorrow I may decide I want a different one. But it will not be because I got tired of the timeless 911 design.

    Re: Future of Carrera

    Quote:
    MMD said:Make a *mid-engined* V8 with 500+hp (more?). One that looks more substantial and less feminine and soooo different from ill-named Cayman and panty-ish Boxster. Give it more human physique room and room for luggage.



    You can buy that today!



    It meets all your criteria, it just isn't made by Porsche.

    Re: Future of Carrera

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    "2008 facelift C2S. Depreciation isn't what it was, but still such a complete usable supercar - what else could I need? "

    Very, very small kids and a valium before driving. Sorry your excuse for buying a Porsche (the two back seats) is like saying you want ice with your wine.



    You completely missed his point. The rear seats (good for kids up to 9 years old) in our 911 are bonuses, not excuse. No other "sport cars" allows our kids to come along except our 911, or the much more expensive Ferrari 612 or Aston DB9.

    Re: Future of Carrera

    Quote:
    Targa Tim said:The rear seats (good for kids up to 9 years old) ...



    Hey, I fit in those rear seats! I sure hope I'm over 9 years old, otherwise Nugget may be in trouble...

    Re: Future of Carrera

    Quote:
    Nugget said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:Make a *mid-engined* V8 with 500+hp (more?). One that looks more substantial and less feminine and soooo different from ill-named Cayman and panty-ish Boxster. Give it more human physique room and room for luggage.



    You can buy that today!



    It meets all your criteria, it just isn't made by Porsche.



    FUNNY! Clever. Good one.

    Timeless

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Le Chef said:...
    But knowing Porsche they will sit their engineers and designers in layzee boy recliners and tell them to take it easy and just add more power. It's a shame Porsche don't really care about engineering excellence anymore.



    I disagree. If the 911 is to stay as the icon it is today, it does not require major changes. It requires a bit more power and a bit less weight, but it should keep the same basic design. That's why I buy a 911 and not something else.



    That's what they said about the telegraph and the type-writer.

    Let's see where the innovators take the market and then let's see if Porsche is around to follow them



    If you think that way, why do you bother with 911s? Either you are a 911 guy or not. I suspect you are not one, you just drive (currently) one.

    There are many reasons to switch. I love the car but tomorrow I may decide I want a different one. But it will not be because I got tired of the timeless 911 design.



    No I hate the 911, that's why I'm on my 4th and talking to the dealer about my 5th...and btw the "either you're with us or against us" argument has proven to be a division that garners few friends and an increasing number of enemies.

    The point is the 911 can remain timeless, but increasingly competitively irrelevant over time, or stay truly competitive, but have to work much harder (innovative?) than rivals who do not have an iconic car to protect and complete freedom to design to a format that bests suits the market. Porsche doesn't have that luxury.

    Porsche can, and should innovate in materials, engine technology and aerodynamics, while keeping the essence of the 911 rear-engined, flat-6 and that iconic shape. The rest can be flexible. and if that means a hybrid flat-6, or a hydroformed aluminum space-frame "chassis" so be it.

    Re: Timeless

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    The point is the 911 can remain timeless, but increasingly competitively irrelevant over time, or stay truly competitive, but have to work much harder (innovative?) than rivals who do not have an iconic car to protect and complete freedom to design to a format that bests suits the market. Porsche doesn't have that luxury.

    Porsche can, and should innovate in materials, engine technology and aerodynamics, while keeping the essence of the 911 rear-engined, flat-6 and that iconic shape. The rest can be flexible. and if that means a hybrid flat-6, or a hydroformed aluminum space-frame "chassis" so be it.



    Your position is now clear, thank you. We have no argument. I agree.

    P.S. - hydroformed aluminum chassis... what car already has that? isn't it the American Sports Car?

    Re: Timeless

    You guys just made the case for a 928. An updated one would fulfill all your requirements and still keep the 911 going for the diehards.

    Lets see if they can do it right with the 2 door panamera. The panamera mule looks like a miss so far.

    Re: Timeless

    Quote:
    ADias said:P.S. - hydroformed aluminum chassis... what car already has that? isn't it the American Sports Car?


    The Vette has hydroformed aluminum frame, but it is far from a spaceframe. It's a ladder frame with plastic body attached. Not something suitable for a top-end sportscar, imho. Audi, Lotus, Aston-Martin, and Ferrari use something entirely different (and safer and more rigid)...

    Re: Timeless

    Okay here's another angle.

    Look how original and contemporary units have changed "drasticaly" in appearance. Nobody has a problem identifying them as 911s.

    Now is it _possible_ Porsche can stuff a mid-engined V8 (with all the HP/Tq potential) in the "911" and need only change the body styling _still_more_ and still have it be seen as a 911?

    Just a thought. FWIW.

    Re: Timeless

    MMD, I think the point is that Porsche does not "have" to stuff a V8 in the 911 in order for the car to continue to be competitive. More power is just a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. There are other paths Porsche may choose to take as they advance the performance of the 911.

    Porsche engineers aren't pondering how they can add horsepower. They're pondering how they can make the car perform better.

    I'd also respectfully suggest that if history is any guide (and I do believe that it is) we'll continue to see better and better hp per litre capabilities as powerplant technology improves (as it always does).

    The notion that the 911, and specifically its engine, will have to grow heavier is specious. The notion that "more horsepower" is a worthwhile goal for Porsche is also specious.

    Edited to clarify:

    Look at it this way. You shouldn't be saying to yourself "I want a 911 with more horsepower." You should realize that what you really want is "a 911 that accelerates faster." A 4 cylinder 220HP Ariel Atom will leave any 911 in the dust. Granted, the Atom driver will be picking bugs out of their teeth at the end of the race but there are far less extreme examples out there.

    Broaden your perspective somewhat and stop being so narrowly-focused on mere horsepower. The reality of he situation is far more nuanced than simple horsepower.

    Not more power, not faster, but more enjoyable

    The race for more power seems to be slowing - everybody understands that emissions laws will make it unacceptable unless the engine is ultra clean.

    Faster, with all the restrictions, cameras, larger fines, more congestion etc. are making pure speed a questionable goal.

    What is still wide open is finding new ways to get more pleasure and enjoyment out of driving.

    Maybe that's a lifetime of track days that come with the car, like a warranty. Or maybe it's a car with skinnier tires, no power steering and no power brakes but vastly greater road feel and a sensation of speed.

    Having driven a classic 2.7RS not that long ago brought home to me that pure speed was not providing the ultimate thrill, but driving a car at 50mph that felt "alive" certainly was an enormous thrill.

    Frankly I would probably get more enjoyment out of owning a classic and driving it at weekends than driving an even faster more luxurious next generation 911.

    Does anyone else feel the same way?

    Re: Timeless

    Quote:
    Nugget said:

    Porsche engineers aren't pondering how they can add horsepower. They're pondering how they can make the car perform better.





    I'm sorry I should have been more clear: I'm speculating on the future of the Carrera.

    More HP and _more_fun_to_drive_ offered by ending the rear engined 911.

    Yeah yeah, it takes some training to get the most out of the 911, but how many guys get that training? How many purchasers of a carrera when coming from a Boxster are disappointed by the limited fun factor?

    "Everybody" knows if the Boxster had 400+ hp "nobody" would buy the Carrera.

    The thread is about the future of the 911: why can't that future be mid-engined?

    What is the _rear-engined_ Carrera? It's a legacy from the days prior to WW2. It's been refined beyond anyone's imagination: now what?

    How about "painlessly" making "The Flagship" model for Porsche mid-engined?

    Karl Ludvigsen called the __Boxster__ "Porsche's Masterpiece" of road cars. (he also probably thought it was underpowered )

    He did _not_ say that about the Carrera. My guess is because the 911 lacks a mid-engine.


    P.S. I'm grateful for your clear thinking. Sorry I mislead about my apparent HP obsession (HP _IS_ fun though!). I figure get a V8 in there and Porsche can maybe have a new "sky's the limit" (also cost-feasible) attitude in the planning and engineering dept.


    Re: Timeless

    If you want the pure driving experience and don't give a hoot about rear seats or comfort you'd buy a Lotus.

    Porsche is about engineering excellence, practicality, performance, asthetics and aural pleasure.

    Personally, I can't see the new 4 door V8 pig taking too many 911 customers. Cayenne....absolutely.

     
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