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    New Porsche boxer engines

    According to AutoZeitung this is what to expect:

    1. Flat 8 5067cc, Biturbo VTG, 750-800 PS for the 960 in 2017
    2. Flat 6 3000cc, Biturbo VTG, min 420 PS for the 911 in 2015
    3. Flat 4 2500cc, single VTG, 380PS for all sportscars in 2015
    4. Flat 4 2000cc, single conventional turbocharger, 270 PS for Boxster/Cayman in 2015

    The first is very exciting news. The 908 racers had flat 8 engines.

    The other 3 are in the interest of downsizing and reducing manufacturing costs.

    How will they name the 3 L turbo vis a vis the proper one? 

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    That list makes no sense...i was thinking about the possibility of Porsche going turbo like everyone else and my idea was they would go back to where they started...2.0l 6cyl Carrera, 2.2 S,2.5 ScreamerTurbo and 3.0 proper Turbo...and 4cyl for Boxster/Cayman...that list is suggesting 4cyl 911 not sure how people would react to that


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Apparently, if this list is correct they see no merit in small displacement 6C turbo. Up to 2500cc, 4C only.

    The  4C will be introduced in the Boxster/Cayman and with familiarity to the 911 after a longer period of time. There was a 4C 911 years ago, not one of Porsche's best efforts.

    IMO the Flat 6  3L Turbo in the 911 will be the most popular engine when time comes, especially if  it is also very economical..


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Info from this AZ article is pretty credible.


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    So basically 6cyl 911 will be what Turbo is now,200k+...and the rest will be 4cyl?Will they call it 912 then?


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    There will be a bigger capacity turbo too, like we have now. The "real Turbo".

    It seems only the GT3 and GT3RS will be atmospheric engines


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    I didnt read the article,only what you posted here...and what i understood is Carrera will become 4cyl while 6cyl is for Turbo only(i am refering to names of current models)...3.0 turbo can be way more powefull than current 3.4 or 3.8 no way it would be basic engine


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    It will be like on new Panamera range.

    Panamera 4S = 3.0l biturbo V6

     

    FL 991.2 range from 2015

    Carrera = 2.5L B4 VTG turbo 380ps

    Carrera S = 3.0L B6 VTG biturbo 420ps

    Turbo = 3.8L B6 VTG 540ps

    Turbo S = 3.8L B6 VTG 580ps


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Thank you Kreso for explaining, that lineup does make sense


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    The downsizing happened and will happen because of stricter enviromental laws, not for reducing cost. A turbo charged engine is actually slightly more expensive than the n/a counterpart.

    Also, no 4-cyl for the 911 as far as I heard.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    KresoF1:

    It will be like on new Panamera range.

    Panamera 4S = 3.0l biturbo V6

     

    FL 991.2 range from 2015

    Carrera = 2.5L B4 VTG turbo 380ps

    Carrera S = 3.0L B6 VTG biturbo 420ps

    Turbo = 3.8L B6 VTG 540ps

    Turbo S = 3.8L B6 VTG 580ps

    So will the FL come in 2014 as a model year 2015 or will it come in 2015 as a model year 2016?  Thanks.


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    RC:

    Also, no 4-cyl for the 911 as far as I heard.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    Then we're back to my list B6 2.0T Carrera,B6 2.2T Carrera S,B6 2.5 ST,B6 3.0T Turbo, i used historic numbers and started from smallest ones because future models will be getting bigger engines so it leaves room for that...i am just speculating i haven't heard anything


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    If the 4C will be delayed for the 911 until the 992 perhaps (for psychological reasons mostly) then we shall expect the Carrera to stay with the present 3.4 L normally aspirated with some 5PS extra and  the Carrera S to receive the new 6C 3.0 L turbo with 420PS.

    I wonder if the 8C will fit  into the 991 and if so,  whether the extra length and mass will upset the 911 balance. A flat 8 GT2/RS could become a reality, if technically feasible.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    While I understand the logic and technical reasons for a completely new engine for the Carrera models, I'm still not too fond of the turbo charger approach. Using a turbo charged engine in the Carrera and Carrera S models would actually make the "real" 911 Turbo obsolete in a way or another. For Porsche, this decision (to use turbo charged engines in the Carrera models) is very tricky, they could actually loose customers by doing that. I would have to think twice before getting a 911 Turbo IF all 911 models (with the exception of the GT models) actually come with a turbo charged engine. Seriously, I think that Porsche needs to be careful. Maybe a supercharged engine would be the better solution for the 911 Carrera range?! Unless of course the new 911 Turbo generation (992) gets that infamous tri-turbo engine, this would be certainly a motive to stick with the 911 Turbo.

    As to a 8 cyl. engine in the 911...well...Porsche just downsized the 8-cyl. in the Panamera and Cayenne, why would they actually move from a 6-cyl. to a 8-cyl. engine in the 911? Not going to happen.

    I also think that customers will have a very very hard time to pay over 120k (fully optioned 991 Carrera) for a 4-cyl. engine. I wouldn't, no matter how powerful or good.

    That said, I think that Porsche will try to downsize the engines on their Panamera, Cayenne and Macan model line, maybe even on the Boxster and the Cayman but if they do that with the 911, they are doomed. The downsizing has to stop with the 911 and the future "960".

    Speaking of the "960": I heard something of around 600-650 hp in the base model, 750 to 800 hp are way too much.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Sept. 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    If all 911s are turbocharged, then the differentiation will be done on the basis of the level of turbocharging and the technology used, from conventional turbo to VTG, twin, triple etc. and whatever other system is being devised now.

    Apparently, the old adage "there is no substitute for cubic capacity" will be replaced by "there is no substitute for the number of turbochargers you have".

    Times are changing  in everything including cars.

    However, something like the GT2 or GT2 RS, the most extravagant 911s, could do with a Boxer 8, regardless of the downsizing elsewhere. I am sure at Weissach they are already taking 991 measurements for size indecision


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    This would be very sad news if true... a Carrera with a Turbo engine would have more lag, less high reving nature, and loose the atmospheric sound, without the benefit of the extra power that the Turbo brings (i.e. a  turbocharged Carrera will still be limited to Carrera horsepower figures and not 911 Turbo HP figures). This is a DOWNGRADE from the driver's point of view with no benefits and all disadvantages.

    Porsche better ttread lightly here because this would be a MONUMENTAL disappointment to potential Carrera customers. If they got a lot of heat for not offering a manual on a GT3, this would be 1000 times worse, because the GT3 is a low production car that afffect many many less customers than the Carrera and the PDK is still a great option with some benefits over the manual. A turbocharged Carrera is all drawbacks if it doersn't carry the extra 200HP and gobs torque that Turborcharging can bring.

    Personally one of the things I appreciate most of the Carrera is its atmospheric engine. How it climbs and revs in the upper rev range, and the exhaust sound with the sport exhaust. That will be gone with a Turbo. I would seriously reconsider forking the cash they are asking for a new Carrera S as my next car if on top of it they substitute the engine for a turbo engine with  the same performance, and that says a lot coming from a loyal fan like me. Whats next a Turbo GT3?


    --


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    RC:

    Using a turbo charged engine in the Carrera and Carrera S models would actually make the "real" 911 Turbo obsolete in a way or another. 

    It wouldn't if there was a big difference in engine size,like i suggested 2.0/2.2 vs 3.0...as for 8cyl i hope RC is right,but for different reasons...911 is by default 6cyl,and Porsche has been doing wonder with turbo 6 since the 70ies,they should be able to get all the power they need from it


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Carlos from Spain:

    This would be very sad news if true

    I couldn't agree more but it seems to be the trend in the auto industry to go turbocharging...we only have Porsche , Ferrari and Lambo left without turbo engines and my guess is Ferrari will go turbo because of their F1 connection,eventhough i believe like any other trend it will end sooner or later


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Most cars are turbocharged nowadays. Some owners might not even know about it, in the case of mainstream cars like VW, Audi, Mercedes.

    I have been a fan and driver of the atmospheric flat six for many years and I love it especially the latest DFI. But if Porsche (have to) go for  a 3 L 6C boxer turbo in the near future, I trust it will be implemented in the impecable way, we have come to expect from Porsche engineering.  Such engine will offer next to 450PS, lots of torque, very good economy for the class and imperceptible lag with the use of some new technologies. I wouldn't mind at all, if the other option will be a conventional and thirstier 4 L to arrive at the same performance.

    I 'll be very sad to see a 4C low c.c. turbo in the 911, though. I hope this is idea is thrown out of the window. It might be a bad idea for the Boxster even. For this VW have the Audi TT.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Carlos from Spain:

    This would be very sad news if true... a Carrera with a Turbo engine would have more lag, less high reving nature, and loose the atmospheric sound, without the benefit of the extra power that the Turbo brings (i.e. a  turbocharged Carrera will still be limited to Carrera horsepower figures and not 911 Turbo HP figures). This is a DOWNGRADE from the driver's point of view with no benefits and all disadvantages.

    Porsche better ttread lightly here because this would be a MONUMENTAL disappointment to potential Carrera customers. If they got a lot of heat for not offering a manual on a GT3, this would be 1000 times worse, because the GT3 is a low production car that afffect many many less customers than the Carrera and the PDK is still a great option with some benefits over the manual. A turbocharged Carrera is all drawbacks if it doersn't carry the extra 200HP and gobs torque that Turborcharging can bring.

    Personally one of the things I appreciate most of the Carrera is its atmospheric engine. How it climbs and revs in the upper rev range, and the exhaust sound with the sport exhaust. That will be gone with a Turbo. I would seriously reconsider forking the cash they are asking for a new Carrera S as my next car if on top of it they substitute the engine for a turbo engine with  the same performance, and that says a lot coming from a loyal fan like me. Whats next a Turbo GT3?

    Carlos,

    I did not expect such a harsh response from you.Smiley

    Look at potential specs of 3.0L B6 biturbo

    420ps-435ps/5700-7000rpm

    540Nm/1700-5700rpm

    Max revs around 7400rpm

    This sounds bad to you? Soundwise it will be more or less in the same bag as current 991 Turbo. Power delivery will be as on current Pamanera S biturbo V6 or forthcoming M4 biturbo engine(likewise better since this is Porsche after allSmiley).

    It will kill current 991 Carrera S on the autobahn and on the Ring. This all is not enough for you because you love NA engine advantages more(only better throttle response and higher revs comes to my mind as objective advantages)? PDK will solve throttle response on best possible manners.

    Exhaust note? Well, this is very subjective indeed...


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    I would agree with Carlos - but of course above what Kreso says correctly is the future as we've seen it with the new BMW M4 specifications - but I am glad that I have reached a age where I can appreciate older cars again more and more indecision


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Other manufactures are showing it - the way to go are Turbo's to bring consumption down and power up. So for me this is a clear way Porsche has to follow up to be competitive and offer cars with good economy and high performance. Do I care if the "Turbo" would be just one of others - not at all, there are so many differentiators for a super car, the "Turbo" or something at the high end will always be special and unique. Different body, different chargers with additional power - so no reason that they will lose clients. And most Turbo drivers I know are not buying because of the power, they buy because they want to have "top of the range".

    Anyway - the 911 Turbo we have today (speaking still of the 997) - even I always was impressed not to say blown aways by the insane power I never liked the carachteristic of the engine to much. Always thought the Rev's & shiftings didnt do it for my taste. That all might be different on a new platform.

    A future Turbo might be a "Hybrid" - adding electical engines for the "extra power" - that should be insane anyway in combination with a strong Turbo.

     


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Since 1974  there has been the 911 and the 911 Turbo with the second defining the high performance , every day usability  concept that  remains true today with the 991 Turbo. The future , and I understand the reasons for it, will bring turbocharging to the whole  or almost whole 911 model line up. This will become a marketing challenge for Porsche to define what the new 911 Turbo will be.   What I find hard to accept is a 4 cylinder 911 . In the minds of long term Porsche fans the 4 cylinder and Porsche are associated with the 912,914 (US) , 924, 944 and 968 models - even though few of those were pretty good cars (ex. the 968 CS)  those were not successful ventures and the result was that they reinforced the role and the strength of the 911 . Of course this is long gone history and the younger crowd might not even know about it ,so a 4 cylinder 911 might, finally, not appear as such a strange proposition . I am pretty sure Porsche can build an amazing 4 cylinder engine (and likely they will do so for next year`s Le Mans) and deliver a good product  but finally to me the 911 will always be, maybe irrationally, the flat six in the back.


    --

    911 Club Coupe, 993 4S Riviera Blau, 12' Audi S4 Avant


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    The myth of NA engines has been broken thoroughly already with modern technology. 

    Modern turbos can have quite a high rpm range, look at the McLaren 12C, it can revs all the way up to 8500rpm, a lot of NA engines can't even rev that high.

    As for throttle response, modern turbos are in a way more responsive than NA engines, most NA engines are tuned for high revs, they make next to nothing down low in the rpm range, one has to pretty much wait out the 'lag' in the lower rev range before the power kicks in higher up. In contrast,  turbo engines have all the torque in the world low in the rpm range, instant power anywhere on the rpm range. 


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    KresoF1:

    Carlos,

    I did not expect such a harsh response from you.Smiley

    Look at potential specs of 3.0L B6 biturbo

    420ps-435ps/5700-7000rpm

    540Nm/1700-5700rpm

    Max revs around 7400rpm

    This sounds bad to you? Soundwise it will be more or less in the same bag as current 991 Turbo. Power delivery will be as on current Pamanera S biturbo V6 or forthcoming M4 biturbo engine(likewise better since this is Porsche after allSmiley).

    It will kill current 991 Carrera S on the autobahn and on the Ring. This all is not enough for you because you love NA engine advantages more(only better throttle response and higher revs comes to my mind as objective advantages)? PDK will solve throttle response on best possible manners.

    Exhaust note? Well, this is very subjective indeed...

    Problem is that performance increase is not "substatially" greater than the typical facelift jump that we have been seeing already in the atmopheric engines, so there is no big advantage. Sure it will be faster in the Ring, but so has every new 911 Carrera compared to its predecesor.

    And even though technology have reduced some of the disadvantages of Turbocharging, they are still there, the 997TT is the worst sounding 911 by far, no comparison with a Carrera with PSE,  they don't even bother offering a PSE for the Turbo, So after yeasr and yeras, why do we expect Porsche to be abel to make a great sounding Turbo now? and on top of it on a smaller power and displacement engine? And the lag is still there compared to an atmospheric no matter the tech, throttle response is just not the same. Also the to rev range of the Turbo is not as sporty and emotional as the atmosphetric versions. To me all this is much more important than marginal performance increase.

    Turbocharging makes sense for two reasons (1) is to reach same power output with a smaller engine which yields better fuel consumption and cheaper to build. Examples of this are hot hatcbacks and mid-sized sedans. And the other appplication (2) is to greatly increase power output to increase performance significantly to levels were the same engine in atmospheric configuration would not be able to do or would be impractical. Examples of this are sportcars, like the 911 Turbo.
    What they are doing with the Carrera falls in the first category, not in the second, which for a sportcar is a downgrade in the point of view of the driver's experience, the only benefit is for Porsche and their numbers. That is why I'm being so harsh, I'm extremly dissapointed if this were true, and this may blow up on thieir face if they are not careful, they cannot just switch the traditional sporty and charismatic atmospheric engine on their most popular models to a small turbocharged engine and continue as if nothing happened. They wolud either need to offer it for a more competive price, or offer a much greater HP increase to "try" compensate...the second option making much more sense to me.


    --


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Unfortuantley, what many enthusiasts look for in a sports car hamper sales growth.  Porsche have already sacrificed compactness, steering feel, manual gearboxes, manual handbrakes, etc. so why would they care about keeping high revving N/A engines? 

    Just look at how dull BMWs have become to drive in order to broaden their appeal and increase sales.

    I can only hope that the likes of Ruf can adapt to fill the gap.


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    What about the weight of the engines? smaller engine = less weight?


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Just a thought regarding a four cylinder 911: Didn't the 912 outsell the 911 every year that it was produced?  (except maybe 1976)  Smiley

    Oh, and it looked just as good especially if you were deaf.   Smiley


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Itsme:

    What about the weight of the engines? smaller engine = less weight?

    Wouldn't the turbo hardware add back any weight difference?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: New Porsche boxer engines

    Turbo engines don't need to sound bad. Just have a look at New Maserati (actually Ferrari) turbo engines. They deliver beautiful noises. The new turbo engines on sports cars such as M3/4, new Porsche boxer engines can rev up to 7500 rpm which was the limit for ex-911 engines.

    I think it is a move forward in every respect. In the end, Porsche still offers GT3 which can rev up to 9000 rpm while screaming all the way up.


    --

    ONUR

    THE BEST CAR EVER smiley

    11 E92 M3 CP - 09 Audi TTS Coupe - 07 997 Carrera S - 05 M3 Coupe - 03 M3 Coupe - 96 M3 Coupe EVO (PASS TIME HISTORY)

     


     
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