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    Jun 27, 2007 11:09:13 AM

    aspenripper
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    aspenripper
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    996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    need to buy a car this week the bug is back dont care about harsh ride creature comforts etc. Will be a bit of a daily driver from may thru november. help me pick 04 yellow GT3 speed yellow 5100 miles CPO until 2010 or 997 series S or C4S all 3 cars nearly same price at same dealer.

    Jun 27, 2007 11:36:29 AM

    Flyer..
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    Flyer..
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    Reply to: aspenripper

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    GT3 if you can really drive on the roads you do on a daily basis. Otherwise the 997S!

    Jun 27, 2007 2:42:38 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: Flyer..

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    997S if for a daily driver...

    Jul 25, 2007 2:52:24 AM

    CPA4S
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    CPA4S
    Loc: Ottawa area - Canada , Canada
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    get the C4S - it will be collectable in time based on killer looks and much lower build numbers then 997S

    Jul 25, 2007 3:33:49 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: CPA4S

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    GT3 will have by far better value retention than C4S, imo...

    Jul 25, 2007 9:45:19 AM

    Joost
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Tradeoff between GT3, the all time favorite, and the C4S, for those who love widebody.
    Like flyer says, the GT3 won't be a pleasure to drive over snow and ice, so if it is a daily driver, be aware of that.
    -Joost-

    Oct 7, 2007 1:32:22 AM

    connoisseur
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    Reply to: Joost

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    If your driving is really May through November the C4S may be a waste of money. The four wheel drive excel's in slippery conditions. Otherwise not a great deal of difference with the S. You also have increased mechanical complexity along with losing some luggage space in the nose.

    Oct 7, 2007 5:09:53 AM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: connoisseur

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    The GT3 may be a bit too much for cold /rainy days. If it is your only car, this is a big issue, otherwise get it and never regret it.

    Oct 8, 2007 12:36:41 PM

    BC
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    I had a GT3 (MKII 996) that was used as a daily driver for just about a year. It really wasnt too bad for me and is not really uncomfortable. Only downside was ride height and the fact that the steering is really lively. We dont have snow here but our winters are really wet and it wasnt that bad then to.
    Practicality wise, its not the best as it does not have the rear seats and the boot is smaller. It did not matter to me much though as I'm still quite young and never really had a lot to take around with me ...

    Depreciation wise the GT3 should hold its value the best too IMO

    BTW theres no doubt the GT3 is the most fun to drive Although for people with are less skilled, the 997 series cars would be safer and easier cars to learn

    Oct 16, 2007 2:01:13 PM

    lodgt3
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    lodgt3
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    Reply to: BC

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Like BC911 - I have had a 2005 GT3 Club Sport with short box as a daily driver since May 2006 - and no regrets. Takes me to the airport every week and back -and is great fun on weekends. Did South of France to London and back next day - no comfort issues whatsoever despite bucket seats. easy pick if you're not a creature of comfort! Only downside: whare to go from here?? Think I'll have to keep her:)

    Oct 20, 2007 4:58:44 AM

    cibergypsy
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    cibergypsy
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    Reply to: BC

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Quote:
    BC911 said:
    I had a GT3 (MKII 996) that was used as a daily driver for just about a year. It really wasnt too bad for me and is not really uncomfortable. Only downside was ride height and the fact that the steering is really lively. We dont have snow here but our winters are really wet and it wasnt that bad then to.
    Practicality wise, its not the best as it does not have the rear seats and the boot is smaller. It did not matter to me much though as I'm still quite young and never really had a lot to take around with me ...

    Depreciation wise the GT3 should hold its value the best too IMO

    BTW theres no doubt the GT3 is the most fun to drive Although for people with are less skilled, the 997 series cars would be safer and easier cars to learn



    I've owned air cooled Porsches for the past 21 years and now have also own Carrera S and a 1987 911. A Carrera based Porsche is not necessarily for the ones who are "less skilled." That is broad generalization and not indicative of reality. I can put my 1987 3.2L air cooled 911 - with no driver aids or power steering - through its paces at the track and still bought the Carrera S because I needed the rear seats and couldn't wait for the Turbo to come out. I paid $122k+ for my Carrera S because it includes the X51 and the Aerokit, plus a few other options, so it is not that I couldn't afford the Turbo. I would have been happier had the European sports suspension with limited slip differential been offered for the USA. Nevertheless, that comment of a Carrera being for "less skilled" drivers is completely off base. GT Purely Porsche magazine published a very thorough article including the X51 Carrera S, GT3, GT3 RS and Turbo and that shed some light into the differences in performance between the cars. A better driver in a Carrera S will lap an inferior driver in a GT3 - there is just so much the car can do and most times the limiting factor is the driver. That article was with a Carrera S with Michelin Pilot Sport tires and regular steel brakes whereas all the other cars had PCCBs and Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, except I think for the Turbo which also had Michelin Pilot Sport tires. Therefore, the lap times between the X51 Carrera S and the GT3 or GT3 RS would have been closer had the Carrera S been shod with the same tires as the GTs and also had it had PCCBs.

    Oct 20, 2007 6:37:21 AM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: cibergypsy

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Quote:
    cibergypsy said:
    A Carrera based Porsche is not necessarily for the ones who are "less skilled."



    Less or More skilled, there is definitely less margin for error on the non-PSM/TC-equipped GT3/GT2 cars. Even the best driver makes mistakes and when there is no safety net...

    Those cars need to be driven with respect at ALL times. Lose attention for one minute and it can really come out from under you.

    One minute your trodding along on a warm summer day on Pilot cups, split second later you hit a standing puddle of water and you are met with power oversteer. Quick wits needed!

    Oct 21, 2007 4:54:43 AM

    cibergypsy
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    cibergypsy
    Loc: FL, USA , United States
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Quote:
    cibergypsy said:
    A Carrera based Porsche is not necessarily for the ones who are "less skilled."



    Less or More skilled, there is definitely less margin for error on the non-PSM/TC-equipped GT3/GT2 cars. Even the best driver makes mistakes and when there is no safety net...

    Those cars need to be driven with respect at ALL times. Lose attention for one minute and it can really come out from under you.

    One minute your trodding along on a warm summer day on Pilot cups, split second later you hit a standing puddle of water and you are met with power oversteer. Quick wits needed!



    A safety net is not infallible and cannot save your neck in every ocassion. Shouldn't all cars, including the Carreras or even a Prius, be driven with care and mindful of conditions? As far as I am concerned, that is the way I drive both my '87 911 or my '06 997S. My 997S is no GT3 but I approach driving it the same way I would were it one. I don't rely on a "safety net" and neither should any real driver. The safety net is there in case all else fails but one shouldn't rely on it as a means to not drive correctly and within one's abilities. The new 997 GT3 does have TC or, in your words, a "safety net" and I think so will the new GT2.

    Oct 23, 2007 11:25:32 AM

    BC
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    BC
    Loc: Cape Town , South Africa
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    Reply to: cibergypsy

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    The new GT3 does have TC, it doesnt have stability management...
    A safety net may not save your life on 'every occasion', but it will do so 80% of the time ...

    BTW a 997 series car (any) is IMO easier to drive than a 996 GT3. This is from experience.
    Compared to a Carrera/S (997) the GT3's limits are higher too, so when driving fast and a mistake is made, the consequences would be more severe. And then again, there would be no safety net too help out...

    Oct 31, 2007 4:05:45 AM

    dan212
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    Reply to: BC

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    I am at the same cross roads.. I have a 997/4S. PASM Sport handles well on the track. I am able to get very good performance on the track. Very fast. I do as many track days as I can - well over 30 for this year (probably 36) - I would imagine less next year. But I do feel the weight in the 997/4S. I put in 996/GT3 front control arms to dial in more negative camber than stock and that REALLY helps - the car is more balanced, but it is still a big heavy car on the track.

    So I am at a this decision point.. And I need to put a bar, seats and harness etc in. Even in PASM/Sport, the body roll & sway needs to be curbed. So I can change the springs, bigger sways (probably adjustable GT3) maybe put in PSS10's, dump the PSE exhaust for something slightly lighter and free breathing for weight and power gains.. But I will still have about as heavy a 911 track car as you can have (aside from a Turbo).. PASM Normal on the street is great and PASM sport on the track is really good, but not enough.

    This would still be my only car. Live in NYC, but don't drive every day. Certainly not in the city. Most miles are on the track or going to and from.. I put 18K on since April - at least 4K or more on the track.

    The 997/GT3's are way beyond my means. I can swap my 997/4S for a nice 996/GT3 for close to even money. If I do it now, I will still have good trade in on my 4S. Or I can throw a bunch of modifications into the chassis. If I wait a year with more track time and these modifications, that won't be true. I can probably skip most of the mod's with the GT3 anyway. I've talked to people who have 996/GT3's as daily drivers. They don't mind the ride. They do say it is twitchier.

    Reading through this thread, I've seen various opinions in general. With the specifics above in mind - I am curious to hear suggestions/opinions on my particular cross road.

    Oct 31, 2007 8:08:06 AM

    Moogle
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    Moogle
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    Reply to: dan212

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Daily drove a 996 GT3 from NYC/CT for 2 years, and having raced my 996GT3RS in HK/Europe/Asia/Gumball 3000... I can conclude that

    Twitchy behaviour is completely resolved with a PROPER alignment (Kussmaul - which involves rotating the front suspension mounts)

    This car is not the best candidate for a daily driver, it CAN, if you are very hardcore, but there are far better choices out there. I found that driving it everyday deluded the sense of occasion slightly. That said, I've racked up over 60k miles in both cars. half of that on the track.

    In terms of driver feedback and purity it is definitely one of the finest automobiles ever made. If you get the opportunity dan, jump on it!

    I would always advise having a 2nd car, perhaps a 4X4 like a range rover/x5, or even a jeep. especially necessary in New england.

    Now that I live in NYC full time, opportunities to drive are few and far between. That's why I have an AMV8 on order, perfect balance IMO. All the sportiness of a 911, the exclusivity that no Porsche can match, and now that AM's are quite reliable, the perfect mix of luxury and sportiness for daily use



    Best.

    Oct 31, 2007 9:16:51 PM

    dan212
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Tom - Thanks for the insights.. I am going to have to compromise somehow. I'll modify the 4S suspension or switch cars.

    I found PASM sport on the track is a requirement. But its not enough. On the street I have set it to sport by accident a few times and didn't immediately realize it. I didn't find the ride objectionable and only realized that it was in sports mode after a little while when I wondered why the road seemed rougher than normal. I switched Sport mode off because I COULD, not because I was miserable. Probably 18-20% of my 18K miles since April is on the track.

    I wouldn't lower the GT3 more than stock. The stock GT3 dampers are not adjustable, but I was also thinking of putting in Cross or JRZ adjustable dampers. I would set them to a soft damp (not rebound) setting on the street and switch to a firmer setting for the track.

    The image below is on the Pocono North Course. I am hanging on and leaning like a fool against the G's on the turn. I know I need a harness and am about to add a bar and seats.. (again - start carving up the 4S or put bar and seats in the GT3), I was startled when I saw this picture. To me the 4S in Sport mode is kind of struggling at this point. Especially since this corner has a fair amount of camber. The left tire is fully depressed and the right is all but off the ground. (yes, I could have taken a different line, but there was a lot of crud just out of sight)

    I think that Farnbacher is right about messing with sways on PASM cars. Does all this make sense?



    dan

    Oct 31, 2007 9:51:57 PM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: dan212

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    If you get a GT3, get the moton suspension, it's sublime and fully adjustable.

    I am not too familiar with the 997 Series and how tuners are working around PASM/etc/etc without compromising the electronic's harmony.

    To my knowledge sport mode does nothing except make the throttle twitchier, giving the feel that the car is performing better.

    I would not advise modding your car with anything permanent or perhaps warranty voiding (such as ECU flashing/etc).

    Suspensions/etc are good because when you sell, you can restore the car to OEM and also recover some money from selling the aftermarket parts.

    As with ANYONE, the driver has the most room for improvement, listen to what the instructors have to say about your track performance before buying modifications that may or may not yield anything depending on the driver skill.

    Oct 31, 2007 10:03:48 PM

    dan212
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    On the 997's with Sport Chrono, the sport mode changes the throttle mapping (as you described - twitchier), firms up the suspension a lot and changes the tolerances for the PSM to allow for more yaw/slip before intruding. Without the chrono, its just the suspension/PSM change.

    Oct 31, 2007 10:20:52 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: dan212

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    Quote:
    dan212 said:I wouldn't lower the GT3 more than stock. The stock GT3 dampers are not adjustable, but I was also thinking of putting in Cross or JRZ adjustable dampers. I would set them to a soft damp (not rebound) setting on the street and switch to a firmer setting for the track.


    Just remember that adjusting a suspension to suit either road or track takes more than just changing damper settings. There is certainly a small range of advisable adjustment, but any serious adjustment really needs to incorporate a change to springs. Going from a soft damper to a firm damper (or vice versa) while leaving the springs alone will result in under-damped suspension (bouncing) or over-damped suspension.

    Nov 7, 2007 7:35:44 PM

    dan212
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    I think that pretty much describes what I think that PASM does. As near as I can tell, all it does is dynamically adjust the dampers.

    I find the stock GT3 ride quite palatable - don't know why some people complained. OK - maybe not so nice in NYC, but I dont drive in town anyway.

    Nov 8, 2007 11:11:09 AM

    OCG
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    If you got a chance for a GT3 than get it, but if your more around an area that gets snow or rain than a C4S. I love them all so to me its a winner in any decision you make.

    Nov 28, 2007 8:43:38 AM

    turbolite
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    Reply to: CPA4S

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    anyone knows the production numbers of 996 gt3 mk2 and 996gt3rs?
    and anyone knows if the 996rs is lower than the gt3? (am interested in ground clearence!)

    thanks

    Nov 28, 2007 10:02:20 AM

    silvershadow
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    Reply to: turbolite

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    The RS should be 10mm lower then the GT3 but double check with others

    Nov 28, 2007 12:57:06 PM

    turbolite
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    Reply to: silvershadow

    Re: 996GT3 or 997cs or C4S

    thanks. that will make it tough for my garage!!
     
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