Crown

RC:

sevoman:

I like the comment from Tomas Mezera at the Australian Porsche Driving School: "Every time your PSM lights up: you did something wrong and the car saved you". It is all too easy to believe you are a hero when driving a modern sports car to and at the limit. 

Exactly. Also the PSM is not fool proof, you can out-smart it (or better said: you can out-dumb it ). The rules of physics still apply...even with PSM on.

Personally I miss my the old air cooled 911s and hate PSM.  Even my early 996 did not have PSM nor fly by wire throttle.  A little like an underpowered GT2, lol.  Just this morning (30 min ago) I turned into Corporate Woods sharp and with a fun bit of speed when the dang PSM kept me from the fun slide I expected and had dialed up.  I know what to do when the car starts to slide - the dang thing never gets that far and it abruptly takes away the throttle, brakes one corner and sets you right like some amusement ride govenor.  I could do without PSM thank you, power is not the problem, I am quicker and smoother than PSM when I get moving quickly.  If the car is out of shape it is because I wanted it there. 

Maybe other performance cars intervene differently (like the settings on the Ferrari) but IMHO Porsche uses an approach which is too overbearing and abrupt.  When I see it come on I never feel like I did something wrong and it saved me - only that it kept me from having fun.  So I turn it off most of the time, unless I am just driving (peacefully) or forget to turn it off.

Leawood911:

Personally I miss my the old air cooled 911s and hate PSM.  Even my early 996 did not have PSM nor fly by wire throttle.  A little like an underpowered GT2, lol.  Just this morning (30 min ago) I turned into Corporate Woods sharp and with a fun bit of speed when the dang PSM kept me from the fun slide I expected and had dialed up.  I know what to do when the car starts to slide - the dang thing never gets that far and it abruptly takes away the throttle, brakes one corner and sets you right like some amusement ride govenor.  I could do without PSM thank you, power is not the problem, I am quicker and smoother than PSM when I get moving quickly.  If the car is out of shape it is because I wanted it there. 

Maybe other performance cars intervene differently (like the settings on the Ferrari) but IMHO Porsche uses an approach which is too overbearing and abrupt.  When I see it come on I never feel like I did something wrong and it saved me - only that it kept me from having fun.  So I turn it off most of the time, unless I am just driving (peacefully) or forget to turn it off.

 

The PSM on the 997GT2 and GT2RS are different, they are quite subtle and allow an enjoyable amount of sliding but 700NM in RWD turbocharged 911 needs PSM.

Big torque deployment through RWD on cambered roads can give rise to sudden loss of traction on one side which can happen with 700NM worth of ferocity, in the GT2 one sees the light flicker but without PSM/TC you may well have spun very quickly. Deploying the torque with some steering lock is even more "fun".....

For heroes and completely flat tracks one can always switch all the nannies off 

This crash is horrific and disturbs me...... I would really like to know what happened, with the nannies on the GT2RS should be controllable 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

The PSM makes sense, even on the GT2 RS. Many people use these cars as daily drivers or as some weekend toys, not necessarily for track racing only. PSM just adds another layer of security for daily/fun driving, which is a good thing.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Leawood911:

RC:

 

Personally I miss my the old air cooled 911s and hate PSM.  Even my early 996 did not have PSM nor fly by wire throttle.  A little like an underpowered GT2, lol.  Just this morning (30 min ago) I turned into Corporate Woods sharp and with a fun bit of speed when the dang PSM kept me from the fun slide I expected and had dialed up.  I know what to do when the car starts to slide - the dang thing never gets that far and it abruptly takes away the throttle, brakes one corner and sets you right like some amusement ride govenor.  I could do without PSM thank you, power is not the problem, I am quicker and smoother than PSM when I get moving quickly.  If the car is out of shape it is because I wanted it there. 

Maybe other performance cars intervene differently (like the settings on the Ferrari) but IMHO Porsche uses an approach which is too overbearing and abrupt.  When I see it come on I never feel like I did something wrong and it saved me - only that it kept me from having fun.  So I turn it off most of the time, unless I am just driving (peacefully) or forget to turn it off.

 

In sports plus, PSM intervenes only if you go  too far . You are able to slide without any intrusion.

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Gentlemen, let's not heap scorn on the GT2. The reality is all sport cars are missiles waiting to hit something. Spirited driving on city roads is dangerous and stupid particularly in a sport car because they are small often unseen and not as safe as bigger cars. Hell, even Porsche has recognized this. They are slowing transitioning to bigger and safer cars albeit with power.   

dreamcar:

Another magnificent car trashed by a nut case......

And a life of Nexia driver...

sportcars-history.com

Leawood911:

Personally I miss my the old air cooled 911s and hate PSM.  Even my early 996 did not have PSM nor fly by wire throttle.  A little like an underpowered GT2, lol.  Just this morning (30 min ago) I turned into Corporate Woods sharp and with a fun bit of speed when the dang PSM kept me from the fun slide I expected and had dialed up.  I know what to do when the car starts to slide - the dang thing never gets that far and it abruptly takes away the throttle, brakes one corner and sets you right like some amusement ride govenor.  I could do without PSM thank you, power is not the problem, I am quicker and smoother than PSM when I get moving quickly.  If the car is out of shape it is because I wanted it there. 

Maybe other performance cars intervene differently (like the settings on the Ferrari) but IMHO Porsche uses an approach which is too overbearing and abrupt.  When I see it come on I never feel like I did something wrong and it saved me - only that it kept me from having fun.  So I turn it off most of the time, unless I am just driving (peacefully) or forget to turn it off.

 

I always wish there was a "deactivate PSM" push-button on the steering wheel, just for the situation you describe. PSM would be deactivated only while you're holding it down, and would come back on if you let go. Might be hard to countersteer while holding that button down however...

Leawood911:

RC:

sevoman:

I like the comment from Tomas Mezera at the Australian Porsche Driving School: "Every time your PSM lights up: you did something wrong and the car saved you". It is all too easy to believe you are a hero when driving a modern sports car to and at the limit. 

Exactly. Also the PSM is not fool proof, you can out-smart it (or better said: you can out-dumb it ). The rules of physics still apply...even with PSM on.

Personally I miss my the old air cooled 911s and hate PSM.  Even my early 996 did not have PSM nor fly by wire throttle.  A little like an underpowered GT2, lol.  Just this morning (30 min ago) I turned into Corporate Woods sharp and with a fun bit of speed when the dang PSM kept me from the fun slide I expected and had dialed up.  I know what to do when the car starts to slide - the dang thing never gets that far and it abruptly takes away the throttle, brakes one corner and sets you right like some amusement ride govenor.  I could do without PSM thank you, power is not the problem, I am quicker and smoother than PSM when I get moving quickly.  If the car is out of shape it is because I wanted it there. 

Maybe other performance cars intervene differently (like the settings on the Ferrari) but IMHO Porsche uses an approach which is too overbearing and abrupt.  When I see it come on I never feel like I did something wrong and it saved me - only that it kept me from having fun.  So I turn it off most of the time, unless I am just driving (peacefully) or forget to turn it off.

 

I share that same irritation vs. the DSC on my M3, I always turn it off as it hampers every spontaneous slide that might occur, yet sometimes I forget to turn it off only to be reminded when it abruptly intervenes in one of my favorite corners.

I wish its default setting was "off" rather than "on".

Porker:

Leawood911:

RC:

sevoman:

I like the comment from Tomas Mezera at the Australian Porsche Driving School: "Every time your PSM lights up: you did something wrong and the car saved you". It is all too easy to believe you are a hero when driving a modern sports car to and at the limit. 

Exactly. Also the PSM is not fool proof, you can out-smart it (or better said: you can out-dumb it ). The rules of physics still apply...even with PSM on.

Personally I miss my the old air cooled 911s and hate PSM.  Even my early 996 did not have PSM nor fly by wire throttle.  A little like an underpowered GT2, lol.  Just this morning (30 min ago) I turned into Corporate Woods sharp and with a fun bit of speed when the dang PSM kept me from the fun slide I expected and had dialed up.  I know what to do when the car starts to slide - the dang thing never gets that far and it abruptly takes away the throttle, brakes one corner and sets you right like some amusement ride govenor.  I could do without PSM thank you, power is not the problem, I am quicker and smoother than PSM when I get moving quickly.  If the car is out of shape it is because I wanted it there. 

Maybe other performance cars intervene differently (like the settings on the Ferrari) but IMHO Porsche uses an approach which is too overbearing and abrupt.  When I see it come on I never feel like I did something wrong and it saved me - only that it kept me from having fun.  So I turn it off most of the time, unless I am just driving (peacefully) or forget to turn it off.

 

I share that same irritation vs. the DSC on my M3, I always turn it off as it hampers every spontaneous slide that might occur, yet sometimes I forget to turn it off only to be reminded when it abruptly intervenes in one of my favorite corners.

I wish its default setting was "off" rather than "on".

With some of the drivers we have behind the wheel of such vehicles I'm glad the default is on. People need to learn a bit about what there driving sometimes..

throt

"I didn't do it"

Just for me and Porker then.  The rest of the world defaults to OFF.  ( I might also offer the manly Dr. Phil the option - where is that oracle of advice?)

I had the chance to drive an M3 during a two-day-training with BMW in SPA this year and I was certainly surprised how much and early the DSC intervenes into ones driving - I had never experienced something like it in my 911, though,certainly, the weight layout of the 911 is different. I do not and have never turned PSM off in my 997, therefore, I was more than puzzled when all the experienced M3-drivers on the course (and the instructors as well) first programmed the DSC to MDM mode, which obviously cuts in "later" and then made themselves ready to drive....  Nevertheless, one can possibly stretch the laws of physics but not overcome them - sad...

nberry:

Gentlemen, let's not heap scorn on the GT2. The reality is all sport cars are missiles waiting to hit something. Spirited driving on city roads is dangerous and stupid particularly in a sport car because they are small often unseen and not as safe as bigger cars.

Yes and no (...not as safe as bigger cars).

 

Hell, even Porsche has recognized this. They are slowing transitioning to bigger and safer cars albeit with power.   

Not quite true. There are safety standards which need to be met. Porsche could have lowered the weight of the Panamera and Cayenne but "safe" lightweight material is also more expensive.

Do you remember one particular case, the one with the Carrera GT? I never wanted to mention this here in the forum, especially not after the deadly accident which left a small baby an orphan and two beautiful women widows but the very same driver has once posted a video showing him driving one handed in a drift/slide on a public street (the other hand was holding a cell phone, he was talking on the phone at the same time). 

I am sorry, maybe I am too old for this crap but while I enjoy driving a fast car, I don't do stunts like that.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

I'm a bit late to the party but wow....just wow...it isn't often that I see a crash of that nature. 

atomic80:

I'm a bit late to the party but wow....just wow...it isn't often that I see a crash of that nature. 

Welcome back, Jason.  We missed you.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Yeah I've missed you folks too. Put my deposit down for a 991 GT3 RS so I'm looking for any info (which so far is none) that I can find about it. Still quite a ways away before it comes around! I hope to contribute again to RT. I've got a LOT of catching up to do! 

Welcome back. Can't wait to see more of your awesome photos ...

atomic80:

Yeah I've missed you folks too. Put my deposit down for a 991 GT3 RS so I'm looking for any info (which so far is none) that I can find about it. Still quite a ways away before it comes around! I hope to contribute again to RT. I've got a LOT of catching up to do! 

 

 Jason, how can u put a deposit down in the US for a car that is not announced ? Is this a way to pass the cue once it's announced or do you have to buy in with a premium to get a early slot ?

RC:

nberry:

Gentlemen, let's not heap scorn on the GT2. The reality is all sport cars are missiles waiting to hit something. Spirited driving on city roads is dangerous and stupid particularly in a sport car because they are small often unseen and not as safe as bigger cars.

Yes and no (...not as safe as bigger cars).

 

Hell, even Porsche has recognized this. They are slowing transitioning to bigger and safer cars albeit with power.   

Not quite true. There are safety standards which need to be met. Porsche could have lowered the weight of the Panamera and Cayenne but "safe" lightweight material is also more expensive.

Do you remember one particular case, the one with the Carrera GT? I never wanted to mention this here in the forum, especially not after the deadly accident which left a small baby an orphan and two beautiful women widows but the very same driver has once posted a video showing him driving one handed in a drift/slide on a public street (the other hand was holding a cell phone, he was talking on the phone at the same time). 

I am sorry, maybe I am too old for this crap but while I enjoy driving a fast car, I don't do stunts like that.

Hi RC,

Couldnt agree more..I own a GT2 997 - and Im still relatively young--but I know my limits. With this car this is the lesson no1 " its a dangerous car - and dont try to do things that youre not sure of - at least not on publich streets".

No Safety Standard could have saved the driver..it seems the car made a frontal impact at 160mph..even in F1 this would still involve a certain risk.

Yes, its sad, there is a family etc. Its also sad because of the car...agian one GT2RS less..

Guys, please drive carefully ..

GTlover:

Guys, please drive carefully ..

You can't repeat these words often enough. 

Yesterday, I watched an hour of russian crash videos with my son and at the end, he told me that he is never going to drive too fast (I know that he is still a kid and that he will do stupid things in life, especially with a car but I think he was quite impressed with the possible impact of car accidents).

I also have to say that I am sometimes stunned how fast people can go despite bad weather/visibility conditions. 

Not really sure who it was (maybe my old man) but somebody once told me that the difference between a good driver and a bad driver is that the good driver not only cares about how he is driving but he also pays attention to the traffic/drivers around him to avoid an accident. I couldn't agree more. If I wouldn't pay attention to the traffic and how other drivers drive, I would have crashed my car at least a couple of dozens of times during the past 24 years or so.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:
Yesterday, I watched an hour of russian crash videos with my son and at the end, he told me that he is never going to drive too fast (I know that he is still a kid and that he will do stupid things in life, especially with a car but I think he was quite impressed with the possible impact of car accidents).
 

Well, perhaps by the time your son gets the driving license, there won't be no more cars.
Or at least we won't be driving on our own anymore...

Just kidding.

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

atomic80:

Yeah I've missed you folks too. Put my deposit down for a 991 GT3 RS so I'm looking for any info (which so far is none) that I can find about it. Still quite a ways away before it comes around! I hope to contribute again to RT. I've got a LOT of catching up to do! 

Welcome back Jason, congrats on your deposit. We've gotten tons of base GT3 spy shots and mules for you to drool over. If you want some RS flavor check the 991 RSR thread because apparently Porsche will take the GT3 RS to a much more raw and "cup" car direction... it will be way more hardcore! Looking forward to your fantastic photos already

RC:

GTlover:

Guys, please drive carefully ..

You can't repeat these words often enough. 

Yesterday, I watched an hour of russian crash videos with my son and at the end, he told me that he is never going to drive too fast (I know that he is still a kid and that he will do stupid things in life, especially with a car but I think he was quite impressed with the possible impact of car accidents).

I also have to say that I am sometimes stunned how fast people can go despite bad weather/visibility conditions. 

Not really sure who it was (maybe my old man) but somebody once told me that the difference between a good driver and a bad driver is that the good driver not only cares about how he is driving but he also pays attention to the traffic/drivers around him to avoid an accident. I couldn't agree more. If I wouldn't pay attention to the traffic and how other drivers drive, I would have crashed my car at least a couple of dozens of times during the past 24 years or so.

Somehow it appears the drivers of fast ("safe") limousines risk more than those who drive sportscars... I recently met a BMW (I am not sure but I guess it was a 550) on the Autobahn. Weather conditions were not the best, to say the least...  Somehow, he tried to keep in front of me. In one of the faster bends (the pavement was still quite dry before it started to snow/rain quite heavily) he drove with a speed of approx 220kph and it was really interesting to see how the electronics of the BMW prevented him from crashing badly. You could virtually see the non-linear interaction of PSM as the rear moved to the outside of the bend a tiny bit, got stabilized again and then the procedure repeated itself again an again. After the bend he had to brake hard and again you could tell that the car was at its 100% limits (it is interesting to watch the brake lights in these situations as the change their flashing pattern...). The worst part was that (in the bend) he realized that he might switch the lane to let me pass finally (he did not want to leave the left lane on the kms before). When I was driving virtually next to him he moved back to the left lane. Very dangerous driving. Apparently he noticed what risky situation he created as he drove very cautious afterwards. I have to say that in retrospect this was one of the situations in which I should drive calmer. Just thinking of what happens if he crashed and I had to ask myself if he would have crashed as well if I had not pushed him. One gets wiser every day 

MKSGR:

RC:

GTlover:

Guys, please drive carefully ..

You can't repeat these words often enough. 

Yesterday, I watched an hour of russian crash videos with my son and at the end, he told me that he is never going to drive too fast (I know that he is still a kid and that he will do stupid things in life, especially with a car but I think he was quite impressed with the possible impact of car accidents).

I also have to say that I am sometimes stunned how fast people can go despite bad weather/visibility conditions. 

Not really sure who it was (maybe my old man) but somebody once told me that the difference between a good driver and a bad driver is that the good driver not only cares about how he is driving but he also pays attention to the traffic/drivers around him to avoid an accident. I couldn't agree more. If I wouldn't pay attention to the traffic and how other drivers drive, I would have crashed my car at least a couple of dozens of times during the past 24 years or so.

Somehow it appears the drivers of fast ("safe") limousines risk more than those who drive sportscars... I recently met a BMW (I am not sure but I guess it was a 550) on the Autobahn. Weather conditions were not the best, to say the least...  Somehow, he tried to keep in front of me. In one of the faster bends (the pavement was still quite dry before it started to snow/rain quite heavily) he drove with a speed of approx 220kph and it was really interesting to see how the electronics of the BMW prevented him from crashing badly. You could virtually see the non-linear interaction of PSM as the rear moved to the outside of the bend a tiny bit, got stabilized again and then the procedure repeated itself again an again. After the bend he had to brake hard and again you could tell that the car was at its 100% limits (it is interesting to watch the brake lights in these situations as the change their flashing pattern...). The worst part was that (in the bend) he realized that he might switch the lane to let me pass finally (he did not want to leave the left lane on the kms before). When I was driving virtually next to him he moved back to the left lane. Very dangerous driving. Apparently he noticed what risky situation he created as he drove very cautious afterwards. I have to say that in retrospect this was one of the situations in which I should drive calmer. Just thinking of what happens if he crashed and I had to ask myself if he would have crashed as well if I had not pushed him. One gets wiser every day 

I run into thess kind of a-holes every once in a while on the highway, mostly are Sedan/SUV owners that don't know their limits, they either block your way and drive below the speed limit or just don't want to move the hell out

BiTurbo:

 

I run into thess kind of a-holes every once in a while on the highway, mostly are Sedan/SUV owners that don't know their limits, they either block your way and drive below the speed limit or just don't want to move the hell out

But they will not be doing 130+mph, big difference....... I think I would have just backed off from this BMW, he sounds like an accident waiting to happen. 

3.9  GT2 2011 make over

I always adapt to weather conditions (and I learned how to react in critical situations on wet and snowy pavement) but 90% of the drivers around me drive faster and I always wonder if they are just idiots or really driving better than me. 

It is amazing...a couple of years ago, I was driving in Austria on the Autobahn which was completely covered with snow, going 60-70 kph which was already too fast but a speed I knew I was able to "control" the car if something would happen. Now imagine this: I think 95% of the traffic passed me at 90-100 kph, including a couple of transporters (those semi-truck type of vans). I was wondering with my wife how they do it because one little mistake and there would not be a chance in hell to avoid an accident. Most of the cars/transporters passing us were from Germany, the Czech Republic and Italy, only a few Austrians (which may have had spikes but I doubt it, they had no signs on the rear).

So they were driving at almost 100 kph on a snow covered Autobahn, absolutely crazy for amateur drivers.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Yep, some of those big sedans drivers think that their car is bullet proof in any type of road conditions.

I also have encountered some of these drivers that were going unbelieavable speeds in heavy rain  , wondering if I am a ' scary cat'  ??   In bad road conditions there are too many factors that are uncontrolable ..... I adapt my speed .

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

MKSGR:

Somehow it appears the drivers of fast ("safe") limousines risk more than those who drive sportscars... I recently met a BMW (I am not sure but I guess it was a 550) on the Autobahn. Weather conditions were not the best, to say the least...  Somehow, he tried to keep in front of me. In one of the faster bends (the pavement was still quite dry before it started to snow/rain quite heavily) he drove with a speed of approx 220kph and it was really interesting to see how the electronics of the BMW prevented him from crashing badly. You could virtually see the non-linear interaction of PSM as the rear moved to the outside of the bend a tiny bit, got stabilized again and then the procedure repeated itself again an again. After the bend he had to brake hard and again you could tell that the car was at its 100% limits (it is interesting to watch the brake lights in these situations as the change their flashing pattern...). The worst part was that (in the bend) he realized that he might switch the lane to let me pass finally (he did not want to leave the left lane on the kms before). When I was driving virtually next to him he moved back to the left lane. Very dangerous driving. Apparently he noticed what risky situation he created as he drove very cautious afterwards. I have to say that in retrospect this was one of the situations in which I should drive calmer. Just thinking of what happens if he crashed and I had to ask myself if he would have crashed as well if I had not pushed him. One gets wiser every day 

I have had similar situations, before I would push the pedal to the floor and illustrate the difference between a sportscar and a sporty-car. But now I have come to realise, after one once almost lost control  serioulsly almost having a very serious accident trying to keep up (fortnately nothing happened and he drove off with a huge scare),  that I would have felt somewhat responsible if something would have happened, since even though each one makes their own desitions and are responsible for their consecuences, if I would not have engaged in the situation the damnger wouldn't have arisen in the first place.

So now I'm much more prudent on how much a push them and sometimes backoff completely if I see a hint of reckelesness, some people just don't know their limits, or their's car's. And don't want any of it on my conscience if anything happened on the count of me driving along with one of them.

--

TB993tt:

BiTurbo:

 

I run into thess kind of a-holes every once in a while on the highway, mostly are Sedan/SUV owners that don't know their limits, they either block your way and drive below the speed limit or just don't want to move the hell out

But they will not be doing 130+mph, big difference....... I think I would have just backed off from this BMW, he sounds like an accident waiting to happen. 

I've realised that whenever I jump into the Lambo everybody wants to stay in the back or right lane and listen to the exhaust note

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4