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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Top Gear EV test: Audi e-tron vs Tesla Model X vs Jaguar I-Pace

    1556608503148image.jpeg

    (April 2019)

    Has the family EV finally come of age?

    It takes five hours and 48 minutes to drive to Devon. A journey that would normally take just under three. More than a trip, it’s an education. By the time I arrive at Exmoor, I have five new apps on my phone, have battled malfunctioning charge points, know the desk staff at Tiverton leisure centre and have come to the conclusion that to buy an electric car you need a spirit of adventure.

    If you’re planning on driving it a long way, that is. Electric cars make perfect sense as a second car. A 120-mile range is fine if you’re never doing more than 60 a day. Your home charger is your lifeline. But trying to drive a long way is like casting yourself adrift in a life raft – you’re at the mercy of currents. And volts.

    I’ll get on to the cars shortly, but here’s what you need to know. The cars are all brilliant. No, seriously, they are. And there’s no such thing as range anxiety. Because battery range comfortably exceeds bladder range. Time anxiety? Absolutely, when you’re running three hours late. Infrastructure anxiety? That’s the key one for me. We can probably plan extra time into a journey, leave earlier, do some work en route while charging is occurring. But the knowledge that the infrastructure might not work as needed? That’s plain stressful.

    Unless you drive a Tesla. Welcome to first class recharging. The Supercharger: turn up, plug in, and in 40 minutes you have 80 per cent. The fastest chargers we found for the Audi and Jaguar worked at less than half that speed – 50kW per hour instead of 120. With Tesla (after a free initial period) you pay 24 pence per kWh; with the others we were paying 30–35p. At home it’s around 15p. Building its own charging network in parallel with car sales was, of course, Tesla’s genius. The joy of being a company coming at things fresh and unburdened.

    Compare and contrast with the Audi e-tron. It’s built not on a bespoke electric platform (that comes later in a joint project with Porsche), but on a modified Q7 chassis. Inserting a 700kg, 95kWh battery pack has driven weight up to 2,490kg. Even heavier than a Tesla that is 100mm longer, 60mm wider (you really notice it in the west country) and much, much airier inside.

    1556608700459image.jpeg

    Of course the approach is different. Audi needs to sell the e-tron to customers bred on internal combustion, those that need persuading to make the switch. Tesla had it easy. They soaked up those early adopters, those that wanted to embrace the tech. Now is when we find out what Tesla is really made of. Recently, it massively slashed prices (the Model X 100D by £9,750) – nothing to do with the threat of arriving rivals, says Tesla, but a long-term strategic goal. But also no support for those who have just seen thousands wiped off their car’s value. Well, if you’d bought a car recently, you could get Autopilot for half price. Big deal.

    Storm Gareth is sweeping Exmoor with 50mph horizontal rain, which nullified my tardiness. We shelter in the Tesla. It’s a six-seater with captain’s chairs for the middle row. Five seats are standard; this is a £5,900 option. Ouch. I still can’t believe the falcon-wing doors aren’t only a concept. They can open in 11in of space, with sensors to prevent knocks against pillars or squeezing children. They do not, however, like closing in 50mph winds.

    The cabin is massive, dominated up front by two screens – the 17-incher in the dash, and the eight-footer that arcs back over your head. I can’t decide whether I like this great slaphead or not. It’s tinted so sun glare isn’t an issue, and the sense of peripheral vision is great, but you also feel exposed underneath this see-through forehead. The dash screen? Well, now everyone seems to be going to touchscreen, this is the biggest and the best. As big as a road atlas, so we scout locations on it.

    The others feel very normal in comparison. Two seats up front, three in the back. Head and legroom passable, but not remarkable, the sense of theatre and drama turned right down. Not much for kids to get excited about. Where they both, especially the Audi, give the Tesla a good kicking is fit and finish. The Model X is not nearly so tightly assembled. But both Europeans also feel fussy and overly complex inside – squinting at screens, ploughing through menu systems, figuring out the functionality.

    1556608907695image.jpeg

    The Tesla is simpler. And more playful. Where the Audi and Jaguar label their driving modes Eco and Efficiency, the Tesla goes for Chill. Can’t see Audi giving its cars a Fart mode any time soon, either. That would wear off, I know, and I’d get frustrated by the unsupportive seats, less cosy driving position and, yep, the way it looks outside.

    I nickname it ‘Heffalump’. It’s just a dirty great fat blob. The Audi is an Audi and the Jaguar is gorgeous. It really is. And from just about every angle. It looks light on its wheels, blends tradition and modernity. It’s the one I want to be seen driving the most, the one that’s neither an SUV or a giant hatchback MPV.

    But then it’s not so much a family car as a five-seat GT. All things considered, it’s very well packaged and performs the family role perfectly acceptably. The sculpted looks do a good job of concealing how much space there is inside, with packaging aided by the bespoke electric platform. It’s the halfway house here, one for the interested and keen.

    The Audi is for electro-sceptics. And, by God, does it do a good job of convincing them they don’t need to be scared of the future. What is there to be worried about outside? The colour? Grey is quite challenging, isn’t it? And inside – well, the gearlever is a bit different, twisting fore and aft under a housing. That takes five seconds to figure out. And the new hollow centre console with its useful layered storage. How will you cope? The only thing that’s going to unsettle you about the e-tron is how quiet and smooth it is.

    Not just quiet and smooth. The quietest, smoothest electric car I’ve ever driven. It feels like a few grains of Woolacombe Bay sand might have been blown into the motors of the other two. In isolation, they’re lovely, of course, but the Audi is lovelier still. It’s the softness with which it pulls away, the perfectly calibrated throttle, the supple ride (the e-tron wears 20in wheels wrapped in plump rubber to the 22s of its rivals). It behaves how you want a family car to behave. Or maybe not. What it won’t do is drown out the back-seat arguments.

    Until you add small people it is serene, then. And it shows up flaws in the Tesla. Structural stiffness is the first and most obvious. You sense the body twist, feel shudders, hear the trim creak. If there were engine noise maybe it would be less obvious, but there isn’t, so you notice. And the ride is simply too firm. It’s been done to keep roll and heave in check, but the Model X thumps and bangs across Exmoor. On coarse surfaces, there’s tyre noise, and it reflects back from the giant windscreen, making the Model X that bit more hectic.

    The Tesla feels ponderous where the Audi manages to disguise its weight. Barring steering that’s not quite as accurate as the Jaguar’s, the Audi is very composed if you pile on a bit of speed. Against the stopwatch it’s the slowest here, but it’s still swift. It just doesn’t do the mind-bending this-shouldn’t-be-possible acceleration of the fastest Teslas. The 100D isn’t the super-quick one (that’s the P100D Ludicrous), but it’s still plenty fast enough at getting itself between corners that then pose it… issues. It’s a bit scrappy, really – you don’t get any sense of what the steering is up to, but a great deal of awareness of how much weight you’ve just tried to make change direction. And with no separation between load bay and seating area, stuff comes crashing through. A flask tumbles irritatingly around the flat floor of the rear cabin as we head along the B3223.

    1556608651708image.jpeg

    If you want to enjoy driving your electric car, have the Jaguar. It’s the crispest, the most accurate and rewarding. It even growls when you accelerate hard – Jag attempting to inject some roar into electricity, there. One-pedalling it cross-country is good fun, and you get the warm feeling engendered by motor retardation replenishing the batteries. It does in all of them, although in the Audi it’s not automatic – you pull a paddle like you’re downshifting, which actually gives you more control. In the others, you choose from two selectable levels deep in the menus. The Tesla and Jag provide enough retardation to slow even when the Exmoor gradients tip beyond 20 per cent.

    The I-Pace is lighter, which helps give it athleticism, and Jags have famously good suspension control and damping. This one’s no exception. It scythes through corners, never stumbles, shrugs off bumps, traction never in doubt – even if you use all the performance that the twin motors (one on each axle, same as the opposition) can deliver. There’s not much in it for sprinting between this and the Model X. The Audi is slightly more sluggish, but still fleet enough.

    "The Audi is the quietest, smoothest electric car I’ve ever driven"

    But speed and handling aren’t why you’re interested in making the switch to electric. Smoothness and silence and, maybe too, the promise of self-driving. Tesla’s tech is little different from anyone else’s – it’s the tolerances that make the difference. It’ll wait longer before telling you to put your hands back on the wheel, make earlier, more positive corrections and so on. The Jaguar seems short-sighted, like it’s walking with its head down, so obstacle avoidance and white line ricochets are more abrupt. But none of these systems drive well. They don’t see more than one car ahead, get spooked by cars in the next lane and panic brake. People will think your dog is driving.

    Now, economy and running costs, the crux of the matter. Audi reckons the e-tron will do 241 miles at 2.57 miles per kilowatt hour (mpkWh). The I-Pace claims 263 miles and 2.92mpkWh, while Tesla hasn’t yet switched to the new WLTP regs so reckons you’re good for 351 miles between stops. It won’t. It’ll do 200 miles. That’s what they’ll all do, in fact.

    Between these three, we covered over 1,600 miles, and they all achieved two miles per kWh overall. What does this mean? Well, let’s assume you only charge at home, paying 15p per kWh. That 15p will take you two miles; extrapolated, 10,000 miles a year will cost you £750. Or the equivalent of a regular petrol car doing 73.4mpg. Of course, costs will rise if you’re charging away from home. But it was cold and windy during our tests, and we drove spiritedly, so I reckon you’ll do better, average 2.5 maybe. It cost me £50.63 to drive the I-Pace to Devon and back, some 390 miles, not including being full at home when I left. But still, cheaper than diesel. A bit.

    But don’t worry about that. Worry about recharging. A diesel splash and dash takes five minutes and adds 400 miles of range. The kids barely notice. Now imagine you did what I did: arrive pre-dawn at a dank Bristol Park and Ride to discover the 43kW charger is only pushing out 7kW. So you drive on and have to face two hours waiting in a services. And then stop again further on. With kids. Pressure cooker, right? So you’ll need to plan well before you leave. Stop at Tiverton leisure centre for a swim perhaps. There’s something curiously heart-warming about your car charging while you’re otherwise occupied.

    And it turns out you don’t need to be daunted by charging. A bit of tech-savviness helps, as you need to set up accounts with providers on your phone, but then it’s simplicity: scan QR code or touch pay, and off you go. In two days, we learn so much about the UK’s charging infrastructure. And what we mainly learn is you don’t need to be too scared of it.

    The cars, then. If you’re intent on buying a premium electric car now, it has to be the Tesla. Is it the best car? No. But right now you can’t separate car from infrastructure, and between Superchargers and Destination chargers, Tesla has the best combination. The kids will certainly think it’s the coolest and most exciting, too. Going to be solo more of the time? The I-Pace. For a ground-up, first-time effort, it’s brilliant, handsome and good to drive. And then there’s the e-tron: super-smooth, silent, beautifully built. If you’re nervous about the switch to electric, driving an e-tron will put you right. But as I said at the start, they’re all great cars, as technically proficient and more efficient than their oil-burning equivalents. Getting home from Devon? Four hours and 18 minutes. That’s progress.

    Tesla Model X 100D
    Price: £80,200/£103,050
    Engine: twin e-motors, 100kWh battery, 417bhp, 487lb ft
    Transmission: 1spd, 4WD
    Performance: 0–62mph in 4.9secs, 155mph 
    Range: n/a mpkWh, 351 miles (NEDC)
    Our range: 1.99mpkWh, 189 miles
    Weight: 2459kg

    Audi e-tron 55 quattro
    Price: £70,805/£75,265
    Engine: twin e-motors, 95kWh battery, 402bhp, 490lb ft
    Transmission: 1spd, 4WD
    Performance: 0–62mph in 5.7secs, 124mph 
    Range: 2.57mpkWh, 241 miles (WLTP)
    Our range: 2.04mpkWh, 184 miles
    Weight: 2490kg

    Jaguar I-Pace EV400 SE
    Price: £74,445/£80,860
    Engine: twin e-motors, 90kWh battery, 394bhp, 513lb ft
    Transmission: 1spd, 4WD
    Performance: 0–62mph in 4.5secs, 124mph 
    Range: 2.92mpkWh, 263 miles (WLTP)
    Our range: 2.15mpkWh, 183 miles
    Weight: 2068kg

    Link:  https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big-reads/ev-test-audi-e-tron-vs-tesla-model-x-vs-jaguar-i-pace

     

    That seems to be the most objective electric car review I have ever seen. It isn't those that blindly kissing Tesla's butt articles nor blindly bashing ones. 

    Highlights the biggest short comings of electric car, charging. Tesla is already the best but it's still way behind normal cars. 


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    An interesting review. If I read this text correctly the only advantage of the Tesla seems to be the charging infrastructure (in the US). Technically speaking the Audi seems to be a much more refined and better car, based on this review. Very interesting.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Indeed that seems like a good article. There is something very fishy about the range of the X though. On my first 1,000 miles my average is 2.5 miles per kWh, and I have not babysat the car at all, driven above the ideal efficiency range whenever possible (60-65 is ideal) and driven a lot in the city with traffic, floored the car a bunch of times. To get to 2 miles per wh I would have to drive like a maniac. So something is very wrong about their findings. Also please note the X is now 15 to 20% more efficient than the model tested.

    As far as inside fit and finish, maybe the others are better but I cannot find a single flaw or issue with my interior except for a small rattle (my Cayenne TTS was worse in that regard, never fixed). I will not comment on handling as it would require a back to back drive. But the X is a large 7 seater and there is little body roll, the steering feel is no real different than my RRS. No doubt the interior of the Audi and Jag are better though in a more traditional sense. Tesla does not even try to compete directly yet though.

    On another note, today I will end up with 20% or less battery with my 2.5 miles per wh actual measure. With the Audi or the Jaguar, I would have to recharge, This would be a deal breaker, I would never buy a car with less range than mine, that excludes the cars in this article and the standard range X or model 3.

    Also there is something wrong with the prices, how did they manage to put 20k pounds of options? Mine has everything and it was only an extra $10k.

    Last the real competition of the non Tesla will be the model Y, not the X.

    So basically the article skips over or lies about the two strengths of the Tesla: range and autopilot wink is it biased? Your call.

    And for the record, for people who routinely do long trips, EV is not for you today.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    So basically the article skips over or lies about the two strengths of the Tesla: range and autopilot wink is it biased? Your call.

     

    You are right, they did not write much about the Autopilot. More focused on "traditional" qualities of cars, they seem Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Yup, but if traditional is what you look for, I would much rather buy a RRS, Cayenne or Macan, even a GLC or GLS. All pretty good cars.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Yup, but if traditional is what you look for, I would much rather buy a RRS, Cayenne or Macan, even a GLC or GLS. All pretty good cars.

    With „traditional“ i meant handling, steering, ride comfort, built quality, cabin ergonomics etc., of course. These qualities will be of relevance to EV buyers as well, makes sense to review these Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    kiss


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    So basically the article skips over or lies about the two strengths of the Tesla: range and autopilot wink is it biased? Your call.

     

    You are right, they did not write much about the Autopilot. More focused on "traditional" qualities of cars, they seem Smiley

    They spent an entire section on Autopilot - there just not that convinced:

    “But speed and handling aren’t why you’re interested in making the switch to electric. Smoothness and silence and, maybe too, the promise of self-driving. Tesla’s tech is little different from anyone else’s – it’s the tolerances that make the difference. It’ll wait longer before telling you to put your hands back on the wheel, make earlier, more positive corrections and so on. The Jaguar seems short-sighted, like it’s walking with its head down, so obstacle avoidance and white line ricochets are more abrupt. But none of these systems drive well. They don’t see more than one car ahead, get spooked by cars in the next lane and panic brake. People will think your dog is driving.”


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Oops must have missed it... Of note the “panic braking” or “phantom breaking” of the X is supposed to be gone in the latest update and was not present before. “None of these system drive well”. On the highway, that is an absolute lie. Many here have reported that it is working very well, my short experience confirms it. It can see more than one car ahead as shown in the dash display. It does not make sudden moves and can pretty well change lane by itself... also it can hog a concrete barrier even better than a normal driver does due the the side proximity sensors.

    I am still very puzzled how they could average 500mw/mile on a 3 hours drive. The car is rated 340 by the EPA and 360 is very achievable if you are a conservative driver. I managed to do 368 on my long daily commute using autopilot (speed control) most of the way of that particular one. But overall having fun I get 400. If 500 was normally observed, there would be a gazillion articles specifically shooting down the Tesla range. And that’s not even the newer version.

    On another on topic note:

    Tesla Roadster’s New Updated Range is going to make Tesla the Range King (over 1,000km)

    https://apple.news/AxCsZD3u8Tz6-Cw33o80RmQ


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    @RC and xander71 thanks for Info.

    I am in Italy end of May for a small road trip to Dolomites and Lake Garda and in September for the McLaren Summer Drive in Tuscany and i will go olso on the Autostrada so its good to know not too exceed 160kmh there.

    @Christian: Imho Austria is one of the best Countrys for speeding. I go most of the time to the driving license limits (+50kmh outside citys, +40kmh inside) and ive no problem with tickets or the police. A lidar warning system is enough (portable or fixed doesnt matter). Laserjammer are right now not a good idea because the police is trained on them. Be nice and friendly (as you said in Italy) and you are safe.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Top Gear: Tesla Model 3 vs BMW M3 on Track (video)

    "It's the super-saloon fight we've all been waiting for: Tesla Model 3 Performance vs BMW M3, electric vs petrol. We head to Thunderhill Raceway in Northern California..."

    Video Link:  https://www.topgear.com/videos/video/video-tesla-model-3-vs-bmw-m3


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Would have found it interesting to see how the lap times varied after, say, about five laps, instead of one.  Also, one should consider that the M3 is basically superseded by the M3 Competition, in many markets, as the current model is on the sunset phase.  The replacement is rumored to offer more horsepower, torque, and all-wheel drive.  That car should be a near match for the Tesla Model 3, which performed respectfully in this comparison test.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Oops must have missed it... Of note the “panic braking” or “phantom breaking” of the X is supposed to be gone in the latest update and was not present before. “None of these system drive well”. On the highway, that is an absolute lie. Many here have reported that it is working very well, my short experience confirms it. It can see more than one car ahead as shown in the dash display. It does not make sudden moves and can pretty well change lane by itself... also it can hog a concrete barrier even better than a normal driver does due the the side proximity sensors.

    I am still very puzzled how they could average 500mw/mile on a 3 hours drive. The car is rated 340 by the EPA and 360 is very achievable if you are a conservative driver. I managed to do 368 on my long daily commute using autopilot (speed control) most of the way of that particular one. But overall having fun I get 400. If 500 was normally observed, there would be a gazillion articles specifically shooting down the Tesla range. And that’s not even the newer version.

    On another on topic note:

    Tesla Roadster’s New Updated Range is going to make Tesla the Range King (over 1,000km)

    https://apple.news/AxCsZD3u8Tz6-Cw33o80RmQ

     

    They have 3 EVs, on the same trip, basically all driven the same way in the same condition, one can't get more real world objective than that comparison. It's not even comparing to gasoline cars.

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The Italian average speed cameras don’t work for non Italian number plates. I just recently took an s class with driver from Milano to Genoa and we were at 170 The whole way in the Italian car, driver said the avg speed can’t deal with foreign cars. Speaking from experience I have done the same stretch at 180 to 200 and it is wonderful and no traffic and no tkts.....


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    hunterone:

    @RC and xander71 thanks for Info.

    I am in Italy end of May for a small road trip to Dolomites and Lake Garda and in September for the McLaren Summer Drive in Tuscany and i will go olso on the Autostrada so its good to know not too exceed 160kmh there.

    @Christian: Imho Austria is one of the best Countrys for speeding. I go most of the time to the driving license limits (+50kmh outside citys, +40kmh inside) and ive no problem with tickets or the police. A lidar warning system is enough (portable or fixed doesnt matter). Laserjammer are right now not a good idea because the police is trained on them. Be nice and friendly (as you said in Italy) and you are safe.

    the trick here is the following:

    Autostrada where they have TUTOR system, which is only active sometimes, you should actually get problem if the system is on doing a average speed above 178 km/h, which with normal traffic it is very hard to achieve, over that limit the fines get home ( but only for Itallian plates at the moment, no foreign plates are read by the system), normaly you should slow down to 130 when you pass under the TUTOR system, which is the big led board above the ausotstrada and it must be written. Normaly it also is a good thing to slow down where the AUTOGRILL are, the police normaly are there, and of course have also an eye ont the slow lane at the right, where the police rides at 90 to control the lorries. I use to do soo and can also drive really fast + 200 many times.

    Autostrada without TUTOR, it is almost a no limit place, just need to use waze app and keep always an eye on the right for fixed autovelox or police....here is where all people drive fast, you just don't have to exagerate doing + 300 with many cars, if the autostrada is free enough from traffic you can have fun...keep in mind always that the problems start over 178 kmh if they get you.

    on normal roads just don't exagerate, only some streets like the Bologna Firenze pass where all the bikes are, you have absolutely drive slow in the villages, but outside every body drives fast, and slow down at the next village...and at the top there are 100 bikes and always some sports car..

    so it is still fun usiing cars here, but avoid city center where even here we got the german style of hate and social envy....and if you get stopped by police, just be calm, say you are sorry, be honest and most of the time they will not be to hard with you, but it all depends of course...

    if you guys should pass trough Bologna, just let me know and stop by for a coffe or a good tortellini, you are my guests.

     


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    993 c2


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Thanks for explaining the Tutor system. Was driving from Verona to Milano last week where these are installed every 10km (or so). Stayed within the speed limit, because I didn't know how they work.

    Recently I talked to an Italien friend about speeding and he told me the following: On the Autostrade a single police car takes car of a certain stretch of that road. Most of the time they will monitor the traffic from an Autogrill.  If you spot them, you can drive by and ask (with a hand sign) if it is ok to speed. Depending on traffic, your car and their mood they may allow it or not. Don't know if this is true. 
     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    guys, this is TESLA thread and not italian speed traps


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    AM


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    Oops must have missed it... Of note the “panic braking” or “phantom breaking” of the X is supposed to be gone in the latest update and was not present before. “None of these system drive well”. On the highway, that is an absolute lie. Many here have reported that it is working very well, my short experience confirms it. It can see more than one car ahead as shown in the dash display. It does not make sudden moves and can pretty well change lane by itself... also it can hog a concrete barrier even better than a normal driver does due the the side proximity sensors.

    I am still very puzzled how they could average 500mw/mile on a 3 hours drive. The car is rated 340 by the EPA and 360 is very achievable if you are a conservative driver. I managed to do 368 on my long daily commute using autopilot (speed control) most of the way of that particular one. But overall having fun I get 400. If 500 was normally observed, there would be a gazillion articles specifically shooting down the Tesla range. And that’s not even the newer version.

    On another on topic note:

    Tesla Roadster’s New Updated Range is going to make Tesla the Range King (over 1,000km)

    https://apple.news/AxCsZD3u8Tz6-Cw33o80RmQ

     

    They have 3 EVs, on the same trip, basically all driven the same way in the same condition, one can't get more real world objective than that comparison. It's not even comparing to gasoline cars.

     

     

    I still call complete BS on the Tesla number:

    4AF754D7-0982-4FED-949C-D61CE1F3C124.jpeg
    2D8D1FED-FA47-454C-BA5F-0C4F0CA05BDF.jpeg

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    274 wh/mi over 15 miles, 314 over 30 miles, and that’s just driving with the flow on the left lane, as fast as possible on the highway but with some traffic. These are real proven first hand observed data. 30 miles is a long distance, not some random sample. Terrain was mostly flat, no elevation change between the start and finish point.

    Like I said, 500wh/mi is driving like a maniac, or way above 70mph.

    Using 314, that’s 310 miles using 98kw that’s available, yet the article states 200 miles range or so. EPA rating is 295 miles at 340wh/mi.

    Maybe they drove all the cars the same way and observed similar ranges, but do you seriously think EPA numbers would be that dramatically different for cars with the same real range Smiley There is something that does not compute.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    You do realized most people and most cars cannot even come close to EPA ratings right?

    Government fuel economy ratings are the biggest lie there is. NO ONE ever drives like the testing procedures. How you think car makers can game that system with small displacement turbo cars? The engine is off boost for the whole cycle.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Well yesterday on my long commute I got 352wh/mi, door to door, mix of city, highway and suburban road (including a lot of 0-70-0 due to traffic lights). The only compromise was not to floor the car unlike I usually do for fun and proper testing angry

    Over almost 1,000 miles, 403wh/mi average which includes some pure city drives with a lot of traffic. That’s with the 22” wheels (the 340 EPA rating is for 20” wheels). As you said, it is not easy to get close to EPA numbers, especially with this group of people here.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Why would Top Gear distort the performance, especially in light of the very supportive article on the Tesla Model 3 versus the BMW M3?   What you are not factoring in is the difference in driving conditions.   The article mentions that the Model X falcon doors had problems operating in the 50+ mph winds.  Now add cool, rainy weather with high winds and these range numbers become realistic.  Also consider you are only sampling one of the three EVs.  If you were to drive the Jaguar or the Audi over the same drive, you may have similar result, you just don’t know.  

    The EPA’s ratings are provided by the manufacturer, so the EPA only cares if the manufacturer overstates projections.  However, with corporate average fuel economy standards, and corresponding gas guzzler fines, few automakers will significantly understate fuel economy measures.  For EVs, there are no such fines, so Audi has taken a very conservative approach to range to mitigate unfavorable press and unhappy consumers.  

    I have noted your numerous commentary on how Tesla produces the most efficient EV.  Note that the GM EV1, from almost 25 years ago and with lead-acid batteries, remains the undisputed champion of EV efficiency, as measured by the EPA standards.  In reality, that two-seater lacked range and overall usability.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Well yesterday on my long commute I got 352wh/mi, door to door, mix of city, highway and suburban road (including a lot of 0-70-0 due to traffic lights). The only compromise was not to floor the car unlike I usually do for fun and proper testing angry

    Over almost 1,000 miles, 403wh/mi average which includes some pure city drives with a lot of traffic. That’s with the 22” wheels (the 340 EPA rating is for 20” wheels). As you said, it is not easy to get close to EPA numbers, especially with this group of people here.

     

    You know, the roads you drove is different than their roads. Just like gas milage in the same car will be different in say flat Kansas or hilly Colorado or congested NYC.

    But all 3 cars are being driven on the exact same road at the same time, I suspect the Audi and the Jaguar will achieve ~same milage with your Tesla on your roads under the same condition.

    Could it be the Audi and Jaguar published more accurate official mileage figures than Tesla? None of them achieved published ones anyways.

    Wouldn't be the first time Tesla says something that's overly optimistic, it's their MO after all.

     

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Bigger wheels absolutely KILL range and this apply for all EVs. The Audi tested by Top Gear had 20" and the Model X had 22". I would say that the wheels alone on the X account for about 15-20% higher consumption vs 20". The E-tron can also be optioned with 21" and 22" so a more fair comparison would be to run the test with the same wheel and tire size. Not saying that the TopGear test was bad, because it wasn't and I did find it quite balanced. But if discussing pure range and efficiency and draw any conclusions it was not a good test due to the difference in wheel size highlighted.

    With the newer more efficient motors Tesla now have in production for X/S I'd give a qualified guess that the Model X will have about 25-30% less consumption on average if both the E-tron and X run on 20" tires and under the same driving conditions. Increase the average speed and the E-tron will fall behind even further due to worse aero (Cd and CdA).

    I'm probably one of few in here (maybe the only one?) who have driven all these cars quite extensively (E-tron, I-Pace and all the Teslas) probably a lot more than any of the TopGear testers and I of course have my own opinion about each of the cars. But when it comes to efficiency and range in the real world, the Teslas win hands down I can say with confidence based on my own tests and findings.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I think moving from 20 to 22 only affects range by 5-10%.

    Nick is probably right, the test seems to be done driving aggressively on slower roads, which would reduce the difference in efficiency between the cars.

    Soon enough there will be plenty of real life experiences though. Before committing to an EV, I did some research to see what range people could really get out a long range X. I decided that I could get an absolute minimum of 150 miles in real daily use under any weather condition. And indeed this is proven true. I doubt the other cars would give this level of assurance.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    I think moving from 20 to 22 only affects range by 5-10%.

    Unfortunately that is not true. I think you would be surprised how much more efficient your car would run on 20". 15-20% is realistic extra consumption with 22". I've driven X with 20" and 22" summer tires and also Model S compared 19" with 21". It is a dramatic difference. The tires on the 22"/21" also often are more sportier, stiffer and grippier which accounts for higher rolling resistance which also increase consumption. And then last but not least how the actual wheel is designed for aero does add up.

    A good example is the Model 3 with 18" standard rims. It has Aero caps which can be popped off. With these caps off range will increase with 3-5% which is quite much just for a wheel cap on the otherwise same rim and tire.

    Nick is probably right, the test seems to be done driving aggressively on slower roads, which would reduce the difference in efficiency between the cars.

    Yes, difference is smaller at lower speeds of course so that makes sense.

    For me it is however most important how much the consumption is when driving at higher speeds, because that is where the difference matters. Driving around town and on country roads is often done on shorter commutes where the total range of the car most likely is sufficient anyway. When driving 130-140km/h on a roadtrip on the the motorway it become MUCH more apparent and this is what I refer to when I talk about much better efficiency with the Teslas compared with both E-tron and I-Pace. At least this is what I have found out when driving the different cars on longer speedier commutes.

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I have all season tires on the 22” so maybe only 10%...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Ok. Then it makes sense that you see a bit less increase in consumption. I've never driven a Tesla with all seasons, but understand it is popular in US and that the car comes with those standard.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Ok. Then it makes sense that you see a bit less increase in consumption. I've never driven a Tesla with all seasons, but understand it is popular in US and that the car comes with those standard.

    My wife's 2018 Model S P100D was delivered with 19" summer tires.

    We purchased a winter tire/wheel set for snow season.


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + 991.2 GT2 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:

    Bigger wheels absolutely KILL range and this apply for all EVs. The Audi tested by Top Gear had 20" and the Model X had 22". I would say that the wheels alone on the X account for about 15-20% higher consumption vs 20". The E-tron can also be optioned with 21" and 22" so a more fair comparison would be to run the test with the same wheel and tire size. Not saying that the TopGear test was bad, because it wasn't and I did find it quite balanced. But if discussing pure range and efficiency and draw any conclusions it was not a good test due to the difference in wheel size highlighted.

    With the newer more efficient motors Tesla now have in production for X/S I'd give a qualified guess that the Model X will have about 25-30% less consumption on average if both the E-tron and X run on 20" tires and under the same driving conditions. Increase the average speed and the E-tron will fall behind even further due to worse aero (Cd and CdA).

    I'm probably one of few in here (maybe the only one?) who have driven all these cars quite extensively (E-tron, I-Pace and all the Teslas) probably a lot more than any of the TopGear testers and I of course have my own opinion about each of the cars. But when it comes to efficiency and range in the real world, the Teslas win hands down I can say with confidence based on my own tests and findings.

     

    Now you are really pushing it. 

    Different manufacturers spec different diameters for aesthetic purposes. Within Model X, going from 20" to 22" does't change the overall diameter of the wheel/tire combo, more wheel less tire only. The gearing stays the same. Larger wheels weights more but in the grand scheme of things it's minuscule as the weight of the tire also decreases at the same time. 

    Wheels designs however makes much more of a difference, hence why most EV cars comes with ugly aero oriented wheels. Normal cars, especially performance cars, have wheel designs that extract hot air out for cooling purposes, the down side to drag is secondary. EV cars comes with aero wheels that makes drag reduction top priority and pushing the cooling part as secondary, normally it doesn't matter anyway as EV cars have regen braking. 

     


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