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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    nberry:
    reginos:

    I am very optimistic that in 3 years time no one will care to remember EPA's malicious witch-hunt.

     

     

     

     

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    WTF!mail You seriously believe this is a witch hunt? VW cheated big time and they were caught. To believe the EPA is after VW is nonsense.

    I can't figure you out. Most of the time your post intelligent posts but occasionally you become a Donald Trump.Smiley

    In the major markets for Volkswagen, namely Europe and China, there is very little negative response from the current and future customers.  Even in the States, there is little impact to the customer base and much of the response will be predicated on the Volkswagen's solutions to bring the vehicles back into compliance.  The only individuals screaming and yelling about this scandalous scandal are the ecotopians and the class action attorneys.  


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Hillary is the expert on witch hunts, not trump.angry Everbody from the vast right wing conspiracy, the NY times, Obama, et.al has ganged up on her. Thank God she has announced her enemies list! kiss

    As for our friend Reginos, his belief that VW is a victim of a American inspired plot is just another way to express his anger at Obama's lack of international success. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    nberry:
    reginos:

    I am very optimistic that in 3 years time no one will care to remember EPA's malicious witch-hunt.

     

     

     

     

     


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    WTF!mail You seriously believe this is a witch hunt? VW cheated big time and they were caught. To believe the EPA is after VW is nonsense.

    I can't figure you out. Most of the time your post intelligent posts but occasionally you become a Donald Trump.Smiley

    Smiley


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.

    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    A part of the public opinion outside the USA and across many countries think that the American reaction to this emissions discrepancy is grossly exaggerated. Some even say that this was not a violation on behalf of VW but a way round the testing methods applied so far.

    The above attitude is based on several factors:

    • The love for diesel cars in the ROW due to their lower consumption given the high fuel prices.
    • The high esteem in which VW Group and the VW brand in particular are held outside USA.
    • The fact that the ROW by a large majority are very suspicious and wary of US government/governmental agencies  decisions and actions which affect external persons and entities (think CIA, NSA, FinCEN etc. and now EPA) . People think that  Americans put their finger in everything around the world from security matters to banking and even to trivialities like the abolition of prostitution! There is also the wide held belief that historically successive US governments have been applying double standards in their international outlook.

     

    Hence there is a strong body of opinion that view the US Environmental Protection Agency's severe handling of the VW affair as politically motivated. Something like giving someone a life sentence for exceeding the speed limit. 

    In this negative environment various each groups of people or nationalities could envisage several plots, some plausible and others far fetched.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    A part of the public opinion outside the USA and across many countries think that the American reaction to this emissions discrepancy is grossly exaggerated. Some even say that this was not a violation on behalf of VW but a way round the testing methods applied so far.

    The above attitude is based on several factors:

    • The love for diesel cars in the ROW due to their lower consumption given the high fuel prices.
    • The high esteem in which VW Group and the VW brand in particular are held outside USA.
    • The fact that the ROW by a large majority are very suspicious and wary of US government/governmental agencies  decisions and actions which affect external persons and entities (think CIA, NSA, FinCEN etc. and now EPA) . People think that  Americans put their finger in everything around the world from security matters to banking and even to trivialities like the abolition of prostitution! There is also the wide held belief that historically successive US governments have been applying double standards in their international outlook.

     

    Hence there is a strong body of opinion that view the US Environmental Protection Agency's severe handling of the VW affair as politically motivated. Something like giving someone a life sentence for exceeding the speed limit. 

    In this negative environment various each groups of people or nationalities could envisage several plots, some plausible and others far fetched.

    This is a very good description of European perception reality. Smiley

    I know that VW cheated, I know that the EPA is doing the right thing (and that EPA is quite independent, other than some similar organizations in Europe) but I also think that the EPA should not blow this scandal out of proportions for various reasons, incl. the future of TTIP and what Europeans actually think about US government agencies (not that European opinion on these agencies could be any worse Smiley).

    I understand the European mentality very well and you have to cut Europeans a slack after what happened with the NSA scandal and the many car related recalls in the US over the past years, incl. Toyota and GM, where people actually died. The US government needs to tread carefully here because VW is not only a car company, it is a national institution in Germany and the current US/German relationship on various levels (public opinion, government, etc.) has never been that bad. If Germans are starting to lose their jobs at VW (same goes to jobs at Seat or Skoda...), the anti-US sentiments in Europe will grow to new heights, also fueled by the sensation seeking media here.

    Right now, the US government (and the tons of advisors working for it) are completely misjudging and underestimating the political vibe and public opinion in Europe. This can end very badly, especially since Putin started to use a different, more sneaky, strategy to be re-accepted in Europe.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Christian,

    I fully agree with you.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC, what we all say is that the VW affair has been blown out of proportion with very damaging consequences for Germany and several other EU countries, as many car components are also manufactured in countries neighbouring Germany.

    However, I am very surprised that Angela Merkel seems very apologetic towards the Americans instead of pointing out the far reaching consequences from this unfair hyperbole. If Germany of 80 million people and the de facto leader of the EU cannot stand up to this US heavy handed approach, then who else could?

    Talk about US government advisors! These people couldn't see the fallacy in their delusional grand idea of the "Arab Spring" some years ago, as a result of which whole countries have been dismantled, ISIS filled the vacuum and a good number of EU countries+ others have a refugee/immigration crisis. Their misjudgement of European public opinion on various matters is not surprising at all.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    RC, what we all say is that the VW affair has been blown out of proportion with very damaging consequences for Germany and several other EU countries, as many car components are also manufactured in countries neighbouring Germany.

    True.

    However, I am very surprised that Angela Merkel seems very apologetic towards the Americans instead of pointing out the far reaching consequences from this unfair hyperbole. If Germany of 80 million people and the de facto leader of the EU cannot stand up to this US heavy handed approach, then who else could?

    VW did cheat, we shouldn't forget that. So Merkel needs to be apologetic, especially towards the American public. I just hope that behind the curtains, she understands how to make her US counterparts understand how important VW is for Germany and Europe.

    Talk about US government advisors! These people couldn't see the fallacy in their delusional grand idea of the "Arab Spring" some years ago, as a result of which whole countries have been dismantled, ISIS filled the vacuum and a good number of EU countries+ others have a refugee/immigration crisis. Their misjudgement of European public opinion on various matters is not surprising at all.

    The current Obama administration failed to listen to the Israelis (who knew the situation in the Arab world much better...), partially because they are stubborn and partially because they do not get along too well with the Israelis, especially after the US completely ignored the warnings from Israel regarding the Iran nuclear ambitions.

    As to the European public opinion, I think that the Obama administration just doesn't care. I get the feeling that the current US government is more interested in Asia than in Europe, which in my opinion is a huge mistake. Also, I think, the US government is relying a bit too much on the information exchange and advisories they get from the UK. UK may be part of Europe, sort of Smiley but they do not get the vibe of public opinion in Europe. 

    Maybe the US should hire some European analysts to understand the situation in Europe much better. Before it is too late and Russia gains influence again. It will happen at some point.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Yes, morally VW did cheat, but legally did they break the law (in the EU)?


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bluelines:

    Yes, morally VW did cheat, but legally did they break the law (in the EU)?

    Of course they did. Smiley Why would you ask that? Smiley The software was used in the EU as well.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    By the time BP has finished paying fines and damages for the Deepwater Horizon disaster, that company could be left in a shambles and people will certainly lose jobs over it. Companies have a responsibility to work within the parameters set by the countries they work and sell products in. If you want to blame someone for the position VW is in, there is no need to look further than VW itself. That's who Germans should be mad at. To blame the EPA is ridiculous.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JoeRockhead:

    By the time BP has finished paying fines and damages for the Deepwater Horizon disaster, that company could be left in a shambles and people will certainly lose jobs over it. Companies have a responsibility to work within the parameters set by the countries they work and sell products in. If you want to blame someone for the position VW is in, there is no need to look further than VW itself. That's who Germans should be mad at. To blame the EPA is ridiculous.

    Exactly, it was not that they cheated for a year or two, they thought they could get away with it forever.

    American companies have been targeted in Europe also, Apple, Microsoft and Google come to mind. How is that any different?

     


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    vtrader:
    JoeRockhead:

    By the time BP has finished paying fines and damages for the Deepwater Horizon disaster, that company could be left in a shambles and people will certainly lose jobs over it. Companies have a responsibility to work within the parameters set by the countries they work and sell products in. If you want to blame someone for the position VW is in, there is no need to look further than VW itself. That's who Germans should be mad at. To blame the EPA is ridiculous.

    Exactly, it was not that they cheated for a year or two, they thought they could get away with it forever.

    American companies have been targeted in Europe also, Apple, Microsoft and Google come to mind. How is that any different?

    Comparing apples with oranges? Smiley 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Itsme:

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”

    That's the question I've been asking...

    Is it also known (for sure) that what was done is illegal in the U.S.

    For example, if I was writing emissions control software to monitor a steady state condition (constant speed, 65MPH), I might want to turn on full emissions control.  Under full throttle conditions, I might want to back off emissions control.  There is a grey area (IMHO) between these conditions, and completely fooling tests.  And again, is the latter, illegal?


    --

     

    2005 997S Blk/Blk

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Itsme:

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”

    Yes, it is forbidden, there is no doubt about it. The media floods us with crappy reports and false informations, they mix up things and sometimes they even post completely inaccurate so called "facts". Quite similar to the many reports about immigrants raping women and stealing like crazy. Smiley So far, the police hasn't noticed...anything (just the media and the internet crowd Smiley).

    The KBA didn't make the recalls without any reasons, this is a very serious matter.

    I give you a hint: In the past, it was possible to turn off the start/stop automatic on newer Porsche through PiWiS. Lately, this is not permitted anymore because the start/stop function is part of the emissions regulations and turning it off would be an offense and a pretty serious one which would involve the German tax office. Or to be clear: It would be considered cheating taxes. VW will have serious issues not only with the KBA and other authorities but very likely also with the German tax office at some point. Good luck for them if they have to repay the tax office for missed taxes. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    Itsme:

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”

    Yes, it is forbidden, there is no doubt about it. The media floods us with crappy reports and false informations, they mix up things and sometimes they even post completely inaccurate so called "facts". Quite similar to the many reports about immigrants raping women and stealing like crazy. Smiley So far, the police hasn't noticed...anything (just the media and the internet crowd Smiley).

    The KBA didn't make the recalls without any reasons, this is a very serious matter.

    I give you a hint: In the past, it was possible to turn off the start/stop automatic on newer Porsche through PiWiS. Lately, this is not permitted anymore because the start/stop function is part of the emissions regulations and turning it off would be an offense and a pretty serious one which would involve the German tax office. Or to be clear: It would be considered cheating taxes. VW will have serious issues not only with the KBA and other authorities but very likely also with the German tax office at some point. Good luck for them if they have to repay the tax office for missed taxes. 

    Changing the start/stop automatic was never allowed in Germany because you changed the original status of the car (like more power by chip tuning).

    My voices weren’t media voices. I had one or two drinks with friends who are working for the government on the one hand and car industry on the other hand.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    How can turning off stop\start be like tuning? You can manually override the crappy system so what's the difference? It's a configuration preference - like not unlocking all doors.


    --

    991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC

    I give you a hint: In the past, it was possible to turn off the start/stop automatic on newer Porsche through PiWiS. Lately, this is not permitted anymore because the start/stop function is part of the emissions regulations and turning it off would be an offense and a pretty serious one which would involve the German tax office. Or to be clear: It would be considered cheating taxes. VW will have serious issues not only with the KBA and other authorities but very likely also with the German tax office at some point. Good luck for them if they have to repay the tax office for missed taxes.

    On a similar point, Porsche and other cars are given their CO2 and fuel consumption certifications using Normal mode. We know that with Sport things are different and with Sport+ even more so. Do authorities turn a blind eye on purpose?

    Similar to the dB measurements which are done without the PSE or similar turned ON. I know that flaps will be abolished as from 07/2016 but nevertheless this has been going on for 15 years at least.

    In conclusion manufacturers were allowed tacitly to sidestep procedures and parameters without consequences. The VW affair is just another similar example carried further, perhaps.  Authorities should have forced VW to change their technology, make tests stricter and carry on from there. All this theatre of the absurd about VW's killer emissions is totally senseless.

    Would anyone ask Porsche or any other manufacturer to pay penalties, fines or back taxes because their cars are driven in Sport mode whereas the official emissions or fuel consumption figures were arrived at in Normal mode?


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    SoCal Alan:
    Itsme:

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”

    That's the question I've been asking...

    Is it also known (for sure) that what was done is illegal in the U.S.

    For example, if I was writing emissions control software to monitor a steady state condition (constant speed, 65MPH), I might want to turn on full emissions control.  Under full throttle conditions, I might want to back off emissions control.  There is a grey area (IMHO) between these conditions, and completely fooling tests.  And again, is the latter, illegal?

    It is known for sure in the US. The law specifically prohibits use of a "defeat device" and VW admitted to the EPA that they had installed a "defeat device". 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Itsme:
    RC:
    Itsme:

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”

    Yes, it is forbidden, there is no doubt about it. The media floods us with crappy reports and false informations, they mix up things and sometimes they even post completely inaccurate so called "facts". Quite similar to the many reports about immigrants raping women and stealing like crazy. Smiley So far, the police hasn't noticed...anything (just the media and the internet crowd Smiley).

    The KBA didn't make the recalls without any reasons, this is a very serious matter.

    I give you a hint: In the past, it was possible to turn off the start/stop automatic on newer Porsche through PiWiS. Lately, this is not permitted anymore because the start/stop function is part of the emissions regulations and turning it off would be an offense and a pretty serious one which would involve the German tax office. Or to be clear: It would be considered cheating taxes. VW will have serious issues not only with the KBA and other authorities but very likely also with the German tax office at some point. Good luck for them if they have to repay the tax office for missed taxes. 

    Changing the start/stop automatic was never allowed in Germany because you changed the original status of the car (like more power by chip tuning).

    My voices weren’t media voices. I had one or two drinks with friends who are working for the government on the one hand and car industry on the other hand.

    You are wrong. It was permitted until the tax office found out and claimed that it would affect the original certification of the car. The KBA agreed, so the "switch" in PiWiS was removed. This had nothing to do with chip tuning, it was a normal setting in the PiWiS system and nobody thought it would affect the original certification until they actually got the message. It is very likely that the (hardware) switch to turn off start/stop in current cars will disappear and this could also affect different software settings for throttle response, etc.. There is a lot going on right now and since the VW scandal, the KBA and authorities have become much more aware of software setups and possible modifications/changes.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    reginos:

    RC

    I give you a hint: In the past, it was possible to turn off the start/stop automatic on newer Porsche through PiWiS. Lately, this is not permitted anymore because the start/stop function is part of the emissions regulations and turning it off would be an offense and a pretty serious one which would involve the German tax office. Or to be clear: It would be considered cheating taxes. VW will have serious issues not only with the KBA and other authorities but very likely also with the German tax office at some point. Good luck for them if they have to repay the tax office for missed taxes.

    On a similar point, Porsche and other cars are given their CO2 and fuel consumption certifications using Normal mode. We know that with Sport things are different and with Sport+ even more so. Do authorities turn a blind eye on purpose?

    Similar to the dB measurements which are done without the PSE or similar turned ON. I know that flaps will be abolished as from 07/2016 but nevertheless this has been going on for 15 years at least.

    In conclusion manufacturers were allowed tacitly to sidestep procedures and parameters without consequences. The VW affair is just another similar example carried further, perhaps.  Authorities should have forced VW to change their technology, make tests stricter and carry on from there. All this theatre of the absurd about VW's killer emissions is totally senseless.

    Would anyone ask Porsche or any other manufacturer to pay penalties, fines or back taxes because their cars are driven in Sport mode whereas the official emissions or fuel consumption figures were arrived at in Normal mode?


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    You made a very good point here but this is actually legal. However, I think we should expect more strict measures, especially when it comes to software "mods" over the next couple of years. Now that the authorities are aware of software "gimmicks", I am pretty sure that they will take a much closer look at software and how it affects the certification process.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bridggar:

    How can turning off stop\start be like tuning? You can manually override the crappy system so what's the difference? It's a configuration preference - like not unlocking all doors.

    I didn’t write the laws and I am no lawyer.

    You are not allowed to change the original electronic of the car in Germany.

    Example: in the late 90ies I had a car with one of the first (?) automatic systems to switch on the light when it is getting dark. It doesn’t work very well, when it became foggy or in winter when we had snow the system didn’t switch on the lights as early as I wanted. I changed the electronics (don’t ask me how) to the Swedish model where the light is always on when you start the engine. You probably know that in Germany every car has to visit the TUEV to get a certificate “road legal for the next 2 years”. I didn’t get this certificate because of my modification (although you are allowed to drive with the lights on). I had to reconfigure the car, visit the TUEV for a second time, had to pay the fees (all? I can’t remember) for a second time and then I got the mandatory certificate.

    And start/stop automatic is probably even worse because by that you change the fuel consumption which is important for the tax calculation as RC mentioned

    So if your car is modified in that way it isn’t road legal. Theoretically you can even have trouble with your insurance if you are involved in a crash (never heard of it)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    reginos:

    RC

    I give you a hint: In the past, it was possible to turn off the start/stop automatic on newer Porsche through PiWiS. Lately, this is not permitted anymore because the start/stop function is part of the emissions regulations and turning it off would be an offense and a pretty serious one which would involve the German tax office. Or to be clear: It would be considered cheating taxes. VW will have serious issues not only with the KBA and other authorities but very likely also with the German tax office at some point. Good luck for them if they have to repay the tax office for missed taxes.

    On a similar point, Porsche and other cars are given their CO2 and fuel consumption certifications using Normal mode. We know that with Sport things are different and with Sport+ even more so. Do authorities turn a blind eye on purpose?

    Similar to the dB measurements which are done without the PSE or similar turned ON. I know that flaps will be abolished as from 07/2016 but nevertheless this has been going on for 15 years at least.

    In conclusion manufacturers were allowed tacitly to sidestep procedures and parameters without consequences. The VW affair is just another similar example carried further, perhaps.  Authorities should have forced VW to change their technology, make tests stricter and carry on from there. All this theatre of the absurd about VW's killer emissions is totally senseless.

    Would anyone ask Porsche or any other manufacturer to pay penalties, fines or back taxes because their cars are driven in Sport mode whereas the official emissions or fuel consumption figures were arrived at in Normal mode?


    --

     

    "Form follows function"

     

    You made a very good point here but this is actually legal. However, I think we should expect more strict measures, especially when it comes to software "mods" over the next couple of years. Now that the authorities are aware of software "gimmicks", I am pretty sure that they will take a much closer look at software and how it affects the certification process.

    I expect everything to be measured in the "highest" mode instead of the "lowest" as the case is now. Or ban software variations all together and return to the 1970s.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Software will be a problem in future certification processes. What is even worse: What happens if regulations are asking for a new certification for each single software modification? This would mean that improvements during a model year, like a smoother running engine, etc., would require a re-certification of the software. Just an example of how bad this could get for the car industry. Or just imagine you cannot get an improved gearbox software because it may change the fuel consumption/emissions output in a way or another. In the past, this wasn't really an issue, the certification of the car was there and everything else didn't really concern anyone. Now things have changed (I think), the VW scandal has made authorities much more aware of software in the car industry. Many "manipulations" won't be possible anymore because authorities will take a closer look and the risk is just too high. VW may actually be the one who gets the punishment, to scare off other possible offenders.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I think in the American point of view, the most important thing is that VW lied when they have been chaught.

    Every car builder "optimize" the fuel consumption / emissions for tests. It is very simple to do it and, on top of that, to justify it.

    Let me explain : when the car is on the bench test, some informations received by the ECU indicate an abnormal way of running : speed with hood open, speed with some wheel stopped, speed without any suspension or steering wheel action. All these infos are monitored by the ECU to warn the driver when something get wrong and put the engine on a safety mode for... safety puropse !

    By chance, this safety mode reduces consumption and emissions...

    End of story !


    --

    I remember when sex was safe and motor racing was dangerous...


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Well, this isn't good news: Volkswagen Investigating if Diesel Emissions Deception Was More Extensive


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:

    Well, this isn't good news: Volkswagen Investigating if Diesel Emissions Deception Was More Extensive

    That's an old story.  Volkswagen has publicly confirmed that the software issues are isolated to the EA189 family of engines, not the newer EA288 family.   http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-22/volkswagen-says-recall-will-be-limited-to-older-diesel-engines

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    Itsme:

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”

    Yes, it is forbidden, there is no doubt about it.

    Why? Do you know how the law around this is formulated?


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bluelines:
    RC:
    Itsme:

    Yes they used the software and of course they cheated the customer at least in a moral way.

    But are you sure that it is forbidden by law here in the EU? I heard some voices that the EU laws aren’t that clear. I am no lawyer, but someone told me that the laws can be interpreted in different ways.

    Electronics of modern engines are controlled by so many different parameters. Someone told me that it is not explicitly forbidden that one of the parameters may not be “test” or “real world” (different in the US). So legally maybe there is no difference between “cold engine” and “warm engine”

    Yes, it is forbidden, there is no doubt about it.

    Why? Do you know how the law around this is formulated?

    There are many unanswered questions and many of the articles have relied on information not taken directly from the EPA's letter of nonconformance to Volkswagen AG, as a consequence, I place less veracity on many of the articles.


     
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