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    Tip improvement question for RC...


    Is the 997 Turbo's tip performance advantage (over the manual) due to an improved transmission design per se? or is it due to transmission/engine control synergies?

    If the advantage is due to an improved tranny design, what are the chances of that design migrating to the Carrera/Carrera S?

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    ADias said:

    Is the 997 Turbo's tip performance advantage (over the manual) due to an improved transmission design per se? or is it due to transmission/engine control synergies?

    If the advantage is due to an improved tranny design, what are the chances of that design migrating to the Carrera/Carrera S?



    1. both
    2. none

    The Tiptronic on the 997 has already been improved. I don't know if you've driven a version with Sport Chrono package, it is a very nice combo.
    We still don't have accurate information if the Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo is still Mercedes manufactured or if Porsche took the plunge and changed to Aisin like they did with the Cayenne Tiptronic and the 997/987 manual gearboxes.

    Let some water flow down the river like we say here and we'll get more accurate information about the "Tiptronic Wonder" on the 997 Turbo.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...


    Thanks RC. I've not driven the 997 tiptronic; I drove a 6-speed Carrera S and appreciated the gearbox/clutch improvements over the 996 versions.

    I have been waiting for a PDK though...

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    The 997 Tips have vast improvements over the 996 Tips too. Faster response between shifts...even more so with sport mode.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:

    Is the 997 Turbo's tip performance advantage (over the manual) due to an improved transmission design per se? or is it due to transmission/engine control synergies?

    If the advantage is due to an improved tranny design, what are the chances of that design migrating to the Carrera/Carrera S?



    1. both
    2. none

    The Tiptronic on the 997 has already been improved. I don't know if you've driven a version with Sport Chrono package, it is a very nice combo.
    We still don't have accurate information if the Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo is still Mercedes manufactured or if Porsche took the plunge and changed to Aisin like they did with the Cayenne Tiptronic and the 997/987 manual gearboxes.

    Let some water flow down the river like we say here and we'll get more accurate information about the "Tiptronic Wonder" on the 997 Turbo.



    I do hope (at least) that the 997TT Tiptronic has been massively improved as compared to the 997 Tiptronic.

    I have driven a 997 with Tiptronic once and I was very disappointed

    The performance was not even close to modern DSG gear boxes. Downshifts were particularly annoying A very bad compromise in a sports car.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:

    Is the 997 Turbo's tip performance advantage (over the manual) due to an improved transmission design per se? or is it due to transmission/engine control synergies?

    If the advantage is due to an improved tranny design, what are the chances of that design migrating to the Carrera/Carrera S?



    1. both
    2. none

    The Tiptronic on the 997 has already been improved. I don't know if you've driven a version with Sport Chrono package, it is a very nice combo.
    We still don't have accurate information if the Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo is still Mercedes manufactured or if Porsche took the plunge and changed to Aisin like they did with the Cayenne Tiptronic and the 997/987 manual gearboxes.

    Let some water flow down the river like we say here and we'll get more accurate information about the "Tiptronic Wonder" on the 997 Turbo.



    I do hope (at least) that the 997TT Tiptronic has been massively improved as compared to the 997 Tiptronic.

    I have driven a 997 with Tiptronic once and I was very disappointed

    The performance was not even close to modern DSG gear boxes. Downshifts were particularly annoying A very bad compromise in a sports car.



    Wait for the PDK. In the mean time, you can safely enjoy your 996TTS, knowing that it's just as fast as a 997TT 6spd

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:

    Is the 997 Turbo's tip performance advantage (over the manual) due to an improved transmission design per se? or is it due to transmission/engine control synergies?

    If the advantage is due to an improved tranny design, what are the chances of that design migrating to the Carrera/Carrera S?



    1. both
    2. none

    The Tiptronic on the 997 has already been improved. I don't know if you've driven a version with Sport Chrono package, it is a very nice combo.
    We still don't have accurate information if the Tiptronic on the 997 Turbo is still Mercedes manufactured or if Porsche took the plunge and changed to Aisin like they did with the Cayenne Tiptronic and the 997/987 manual gearboxes.

    Let some water flow down the river like we say here and we'll get more accurate information about the "Tiptronic Wonder" on the 997 Turbo.



    I do hope (at least) that the 997TT Tiptronic has been massively improved as compared to the 997 Tiptronic.

    I have driven a 997 with Tiptronic once and I was very disappointed

    The performance was not even close to modern DSG gear boxes. Downshifts were particularly annoying A very bad compromise in a sports car.



    Wait for the PDK. In the mean time, you can safely enjoy your 996TTS, knowing that it's just as fast as a 997TT 6spd




    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    I do hope (at least) that the 997TT Tiptronic has been massively improved as compared to the 997 Tiptronic.

    I have driven a 997 with Tiptronic once and I was very disappointed

    The performance was not even close to modern DSG gear boxes. Downshifts were particularly annoying A very bad compromise in a sports car.


    FWIW, the tip in the 997 Carrera is already far better than tip in any 996 model variant .
    DSG or PDK is vastly different from a torque converter dependent tip.
    Furthermore, the 997TT uses a different tip box from the 997 carrera too.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Sorry, But imho I have a hard time believing that in the real world a 996ttS will perform as well as a manual 997tt. I believe some people are not giving the 6spd 997tt a fair asessment.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Sorry, But imho I have a hard time believing that in the real world a 996ttS will perform as well as a manual 997tt. I believe some people are not giving the 6spd 997tt a fair asessment.



    In theory it should be impossible (30 additional hp, new VTG technology, etc.).

    But look at the specs... That's part of the story why I am so disappointed by the 997TT (the other part is the lack of PDK and the continued use of the "old" Tiptronic technology)

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    There have been no independent tests of the 997tt 6spd or tiptronic. I am sure that the times for the 6spd will improve upon Porsche's claims. I cant remember the official Porsche performance numbers for a 996tts, but I believe they were much slower than those of the 997tt manual.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    trip said:
    There have been no independent tests of the 997tt 6spd or tiptronic. I am sure that the times for the 6spd will improve upon Porsche's claims. I cant remember the official Porsche performance numbers for a 996tts, but I believe they were much slower than those of the 997tt manual.




    Factory times

    996 Turbo


    Top speed: 305 km/h (Tiptronic S 298 km/h)


    0-100 km/h: 4,2 s (Tiptronic S 4,8 s)
    0-160 km/h: 9,3 s (Tiptronic S 10,4 s)

    996 Turbo S/X50



    Top speed 307 km/h (Tiptronic S 300 km/h)

    0-100 km/h: 4.2 s (Tiptronic S 4.5 s)
    0-160 km/h: 9.0 s (Tiptronic S 9.7 s)

    997 Turbo - Standard 620 Nm without "Powerkit 680 Nm"


    Top speed 310 km/h

    0-100 km/h: 3.9 s (Tiptronic S 3.7 s)
    0-160 km/h: 8.4 s (Tiptronic S 7.8 s)
    0-200 km/h: 12.8 s (Tiptronic S 12.2 s)


    Test times

    996 Turbo X50

    Test in ams 1/2003
    Gewicht 1578 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,0 s
    0 - 100 km/h 3,9 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,5 s
    0 - 140 km/h 6,8 s
    0 - 160 km/h 8,4 s
    0 - 180 km/h 10,9 s
    0 - 200 km/h 12,9 s


    996 Turbo

    Test in ams 1/2003
    Gewicht 1584 kg
    0 - 80 km/h 3,0 s
    0 - 100 km/h 4,0 s
    0 - 120 km/h 5,7 s
    0 - 140 km/h 7,1 s
    0 - 160 km/h 8,9 s
    0 - 180 km/h 11,3 s
    0 - 200 km/h 13,7 s


    Not really much of a difference in 62-100 mph times. I'd say that MKSGR can safely drive around in his X50, knowing that the 997TT without the powerkit isn't really something he needs to buy outright.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Can we reliably use 0-100KPH and 0-160KPH times to infer 100-160KPH elasticity...esp if 997TT supposedly substantially reduces turbo lag seen in mid-range launches?

    Also, what adjustment does one need to make for fact most manual tranny owners won't choose/are actually incapable of reliably shifting as quickly as needed to achieve factory/car mag times....vs the more duplicable Tip times?

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Can we reliably use 0-100KPH and 0-160KPH times to infer 100-160KPH elasticity...esp if 997TT supposedly substantially reduces turbo lag seen in mid-range launches?

    Also, what adjustment does one need to make for fact most manual tranny owners won't choose/are actually incapable of reliably shifting as quickly as needed to achieve factory/car mag times....vs the more duplicable Tip times?



    Well, that's part of the issue. Most people were already as fast or even faster with a Tip before, but now even a total rookie can be faster than Walter Rohrl (at least in the straights). That sucks for people who love manual transmissions. However we put it, despite all the claims about how straight-line doesn't matter, this isn't true. We do value cornering performance very much, but I still feel very bad when an automatic version is faster. Screw it, I don't like to lose.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Thanks for the numbers, Crash.

    Now, let's see if I've got this straight...

    From 996TT to 997TT (0-160 kmh)

    Manual 9.3 down to 8.4 (0.9 sec improvement)
    Tip 10.4 down to 7.8 (2.6 sec improvement)

    WTF?

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    WTF?



    What he said...

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    WTF?



    What he said...



    Guys,

    We keep obsessing about the same crazy numbers without any more detail about why the jump for TipS versus manual 997TT versus 996TT/TTS:
    1. 997TT-TipS technical advances (?Mercedes versus Aisin),
    2. ECU/new AWD transaxle electronic control programmed with the VTG power and torque curves specifically for the new TipS, with (? "unintentional" ) advantage over previous 6-speed manual,
    3. Both

    As RC stated above, let's wait for more data, hopefully by Geneva.

    BTW, guys, any idea when we will get an "independent" test drive of TipS versus manual with overboost on dry pavement?

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Well, I think that the 997TT / tiptronic engineering team deserve an A+ for their accomplishment. Give them a raise, bonus, vacation, etc. We have a vehicle that we can really be proud of, and that can really kick some ass! Can't wait to see how it really compares head to head with the likes of the F430, Z06, etc.,

    As for the 997TT / manual engineering team, on the other hand, ... YOUR FIRED!

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Thanks for the numbers, Crash.

    Now, let's see if I've got this straight...

    From 996TT to 997TT (0-160 kmh)

    Manual 9.3 down to 8.4 (0.9 sec improvement)
    Tip 10.4 down to 7.8 (2.6 sec improvement)

    WTF?



    You compare to the 996TT figures and not the 996TTS figures...

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    ... YOUR FIRED!



    Having your Donald Trump day...?

    It still remains mysterious to me how these differing acc. times between manual and Tip. have been accomplished.
    Could imagine that launching the car plays an important role below 100 kph, the shorter gearchanges and therefore possibly lower lack of turbocharger energy might make the difference beyond that speed.

    Let's wait and see - anyway the 997 TT is clearly faster than its predecessor, no matter which gearbox is used.

    Re: Tip improvement question for RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    But look at the specs... That's part of the story why I am so disappointed by the 997TT (the other part is the lack of PDK and the continued use of the "old" Tiptronic technology)



    Like I said in another post: you're making the mistake of comparing factory specs to test results.

    The new 997 Turbo is a rocket...if I believe the stuff I've been told.

     
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