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    2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Back to back races on consecutive weekends Smiley

    It seems that Jenson Button is favourite to win the Driver's Championship with his team-mate, Rubens Barrichello, standing a ever-lessening chance of overhauling Jenson's lead. I believe that Sebastian Vettel's chances are mostly theoretical only. I think the points deficit is too great in practice to overcome. Smiley

    I love the Suzuka circuit - should be a lot of fun Smiley


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    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    weather forecast?a wet race will be more interesting !


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    Dedi La vita è troppo corta per non guidare italiano.....

    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Qualification:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/results/7921062.stm

    Grid:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/results/7921118.stm

    Pre-race weights:

    1. Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, 658.5kg
    2. Jarno Trulli, Toyota, 655.5
    3. Lewis Hamilton, McLaren, 656
    4. Nick Heidfeld, BMW Sauber, 660
    5. Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, 661
    6. Nico Rosberg, Williams, 684.5
    7. Robert Kubica, BMW Sauber, 686
    8. Adrian Sutil, Force India, 650
    9. Rubens Barrichello, Brawn GP, 660.5
    10. Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso, 682.5
    11. Jenson Button, Brawn GP, 658.5
    12. Heikki Kovalainen, McLaren, 675
    13. Giancarlo Fisichella, Ferrari, 661.5
    14. Sebastien Buemi, Toro Rosso, 665.4
    15. Kazuki Nakajima, Williams, 695.7
    16. Romain Grosjean, Renault, 691.8
    17. Fernando Alonso, Renault, 689.5
    18. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India, 682.5
    19. Timo Glock, Toyota, n/a
    20. Mark Webber, Red Bull, n/a

    http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/10/10041.html

     


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    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

     Oh no, that's early. Will the race be worth setting up the alarm clock?


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

     Congratulations Vettel! Commanding performance from him. Everything is still up for grabs, although the Constructor's is pretty much wrapped up.

    Can someone please explain to me why Lewis wasn't glued to Jarno's gearbox at the restart? He wasn't going fast enough to be worried about his front end washing out on him. He might have had a chance for second.

     


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

     Another boring race...

    What is the FIA doing for cars to overtake each other?


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    GO VETTEL!! its possible now, Brawn is all over the map... only two more, going to be interesting for me for sure.

    But yes the race was pretty boring to watch


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
    _____________________________________________________________________
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    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    SciFrog:

     Another boring race...

    What is the FIA doing for cars to overtake each other?

     

     

    Purnell: More rule changes still needed

     

     

     

    FIA technical consultant Tony Purnell believes more changes are needed to Formula One's regulations if the sport hopes to keep fans entertained.

     

    This year's Championship saw some of the biggest rule changes in the last decade with the return of slick tyres, a reduction in downforce, the introduction of KERS and other various aerodynamic changes.

     

    But even with the new rules, Formula One has seen very little overtaking this season as while the cars are getting closer to one another, 'dirty' air is preventing passing.

     

    "No, not really," Purnell told F1 Racing magazine when asked if the new rules had been a success.

     

    "If we're going to give the fans what they want, we've got to take another step."

     

    Purnell reckons the biggest problem facing F1 is the aerodynamic rules, which although changed in the hope of improving overtaking, have by in large failed in their objective.

     

    "It happens again and again that you make rules to rid the cars of downforce and, nine months later, it pops back up again," he said.

     

    "The new rules have been a worthwhile step in improving these things.

     

    "The F1 community is desperately conservative, and with good cause, because they feel the cars are very popular so don't want to mess things up.

     

    "The way to tackle the problem is step by step.

     

    "What's good is that, over the past year, more thought has gone into this problem than before."

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Oh well, I believe the guys building the cars are simply smarter than the one making the rules. 

    They are going to change the rules again, we're going to complain and nothing will change.

    If you want to see overtaking, watch touring car races, if you want to see the fastest cars possible and precision driving, watch F1. You can't have both.


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Dogs bark, cows moo and regulators regulate!

    If not contained, they will be the death of motorsport.


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Eunice:

    .... if you want to see the fastest cars possible and precision driving, watch F1.


    Or, if you want to watch 'precision crashing', watch Piquet Jnr Smiley


    --

    Rennteam Moderator - 997.1 Carrera S Coupe GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Remember when sportscars were as fast if not faster than F1? If the diesel cars didn't still have the advantage we would see more interest from other manufacturers. You want exciting racing, stop slowing these cars down! I much prefer watching GT2 and LMP cars but the fields aren't what they could be. Make it more attractive to the manufacturers so they can showcase their expertise while still spending much less than they would in F1.    


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Sportscars were nearly as fast beacuse F1 cars were more restricted. Left to their own devices, F1 cars would be incomparably faster than sportscars. If left unrestricted race cars of all sorts would be too dangerous and ultimately undriveable.


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    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    REALZEUS:

    Sportscars were nearly as fast beacuse F1 cars were more restricted. Left to their own devices, F1 cars would be incomparably faster than sportscars. If left unrestricted race cars of all sorts would be too dangerous and ultimately undriveable.

     I think that is true, without restrictions, drivers would probably feel g-forces comparable to jet fighters, but if you pass out in a jet you always have at least some time to react, in a F1 car passing out a second in a corner could be your death.

    Having said that, I find it very wrong HOW the restrictions are applied. I think the only real restrictions should be about fuel consumption and driver safety.  


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    I wasn't saying no limits, mearly that the current rules seem backwards to me. I wish I remembered the tracks that the 917 could match their pace but it was just an example of how good it used to be. Sportscar racing could do much better in my mind.


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    REALZEUS:

    Sportscars were nearly as fast beacuse F1 cars were more restricted. Left to their own devices, F1 cars would be incomparably faster than sportscars. If left unrestricted race cars of all sorts would be too dangerous and ultimately undriveable.

    No quite true.

    F1 cars have  been designed for sprint type races on shorter circuits. (there was a time that F1 and sportscar raced together).

    Sportcar's (Prototypes) are designed for longer circuits with longer straights. (Le Mans)

    Prototypes (in general) spend longer periods of time during a lap at full speed.

    F1 need to accelerate much quicker.

    Obviously the F1 is quicker around a lap (much higher cornering speeds and acceleration), but in a straight line the Sportscar will have the advantage. Especially due to aerodynamics and gearing.

    Remember the long tails?

    Unrestricted, both would be un-drivable!

    The problem is that regulators have a compulsion to constantly regulate. They feel that they need to constantly change the rules; often to accommodate political and lobby pressure rather than for the good of the sport. They will find any little excuse to "mess" with the rules every year (and in many cases even during the year)

    They start off with poor rules and then spend the next decade modifying them, until eventually a "new" set of rules get written. Then the cycle starts all over again.

     


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Spyderidol, what would you propose as a ruleset?


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    That’s a hard one Eunice. I'm not a regulator, but here are some of my general thoughts and concerns:

    1. There are no set of rules that will please everyone.
    2. F1 need to clearly define what they want F1 to be.
    3. It’s no good saying that “F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport” and then regulates it into almost a “spec” series.
    4. Regulators (and organizers) need to understand that the fans don’t just want to see close racing; they want to see spectacular machines as well. Noisy, fast and technologically advanced.
    5. The “tighter” the set of rules, the more similar the cars will be to each other. (no room for innovation)
    6. Generally speaking, the “tighter” the rules, the more expensive it becomes to gain a competitive advantage.
    7. Constant rule changes make the sport more expensive (manufacturer’s must adapt) and as a result increases gaps between cars (in the medium to long term) rather than equalize the performance.
    8. Don’t just focus on regulating the cars! How about the tracks!?
    9. Many tracks do not offer enough “overtaking” opportunities. They are boring (to both driver and spectator) and clinical. (that’s why nowadays, everyone has “orgasms” over some of the “older” tracks (Monza, Spa, etc)
    10. Not everything can be a priority. If safety and TV viewing is the priority when building a track, then “real” racing and imaginative circuit design, can often be compromised. (to a lesser or greater extent)
    11. Rather start with smaller engine capacity with more permissive engine rules, than with larger engine capacities that need to be regulated down.

    Also note: I'm more of a sportscar guy.

     


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Spyderidol:
    REALZEUS:

    Sportscars were nearly as fast beacuse F1 cars were more restricted. Left to their own devices, F1 cars would be incomparably faster than sportscars. If left unrestricted race cars of all sorts would be too dangerous and ultimately undriveable.

    No quite true.

    F1 cars have  been designed for sprint type races on shorter circuits. (there was a time that F1 and sportscar raced together).

    Sportcar's (Prototypes) are designed for longer circuits with longer straights. (Le Mans)

    Prototypes (in general) spend longer periods of time during a lap at full speed.

    F1 need to accelerate much quicker.

    Obviously the F1 is quicker around a lap (much higher cornering speeds and acceleration), but in a straight line the Sportscar will have the advantage. Especially due to aerodynamics and gearing.

    Remember the long tails?

    Unrestricted, both would be un-drivable!

    The problem is that regulators have a compulsion to constantly regulate. They feel that they need to constantly change the rules; often to accommodate political and lobby pressure rather than for the good of the sport. They will find any little excuse to "mess" with the rules every year (and in many cases even during the year)

    They start off with poor rules and then spend the next decade modifying them, until eventually a "new" set of rules get written. Then the cycle starts all over again.

     

     

    I agree, and closed wheel is far superior design to open wheel due to the inherent aerodinamics advantages of a closed wheel, closed cockpit design, if both would be unrestrticted, the prototypes would be faster in all aspects than F1 cars, because it would then be like comparing coupes to cabs.


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    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Also note: I'm more of a sportscar guy.

     


    Exactly!!!!!

     

    porsche_08.jpg


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    Spyderidol:
    REALZEUS:

    Sportscars were nearly as fast beacuse F1 cars were more restricted. Left to their own devices, F1 cars would be incomparably faster than sportscars. If left unrestricted race cars of all sorts would be too dangerous and ultimately undriveable.

    No quite true.

    F1 cars have  been designed for sprint type races on shorter circuits. (there was a time that F1 and sportscar raced together).

    Sportcar's (Prototypes) are designed for longer circuits with longer straights. (Le Mans)

    Prototypes (in general) spend longer periods of time during a lap at full speed.

    F1 need to accelerate much quicker.

    Obviously the F1 is quicker around a lap (much higher cornering speeds and acceleration), but in a straight line the Sportscar will have the advantage. Especially due to aerodynamics and gearing.

    Remember the long tails?

    Unrestricted, both would be un-drivable!

    The problem is that regulators have a compulsion to constantly regulate. They feel that they need to constantly change the rules; often to accommodate political and lobby pressure rather than for the good of the sport. They will find any little excuse to "mess" with the rules every year (and in many cases even during the year)

    They start off with poor rules and then spend the next decade modifying them, until eventually a "new" set of rules get written. Then the cycle starts all over again.

     

    I will have to disagree. IRL cars regularly do 240 mph or more! Honda back in 2004 or 2005 tried a V10 F1 car with different front and rear wings (but still legal) on Boneville and topped 420 km/h!!! Honda reckoned that if it was a tarmac runway the car would do more than 430 km/h. To my knowledge that's way faster than what the sportscars could do down the Mulsanne straight.

     


     


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    We were comparing F1 to sportscars.

    The fasted trap speed of a F1car was the (1999) record for F1 is 361.8 km/h = 100.5 m/s by David Coulthard at Monza.

    The highest speed recorded in an European race was at Le Mans:

    The record for top speed in a closed circuit held by a WM at Le Mans (when Les Hunaudieres was still a 5 km long straight). at about 405-407 Km/h (sources differ on the exact speed).

     

    IRL is a very different story at the cars are specifically built to run long distances at full speed.


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    The Monza straight is too short compared to that huge 5 km straight. An F1 car with extremeley low downforce setting would do much more than 405 on such a straight. Finally, in 2004 M. Schumacher was clocked at 372 km/h down the Monza straight - the 1999 cars had much less power than their 2004 counterparts; power peaked in 2004 and started decreasing afterwards.


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    FERRARI RULES!!!


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    The length of the straight make no difference if both cars had reached their top speed.

    But as you can see, the difference between the two is not abysmal.


    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    An F1 car's top speed is dependent on the downforce levels it carries, which in turn depend on a) the lenght of the striaghts and b) the existence or not of fast turns. Monza has the lowest downforce levels of the whole calendar but there is still a huge amount of downforce by sportscars standards. If a car was to be stripped of its downforce (like in the Honda experiment) top speeds would be much higher than they now are. A super-long straight would neccessitate such a set up, hence my reference to that 5 km vastness. 


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: 2009 Japanese F1 Grand Prix in Suzuka

    You are just making my point in my fist post.

    No one builds a F1 car that does 400Km/h because they don't race on tracks that allows for those speeds.

    Furthermore, their aerodynamics does not allow for huge top speeds. They simply don't need them.


     
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