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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Key operational phrase is minor controls.  No one will be carrying on a long conversation with their automobile to change a streaming music selection or adjust the temperature.  Tesla and Apple, unfortunately, set the trend with its large digital display touch panels as a sign of high tech.  This is something consumers view as desirable regardless of the lack of practicality. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:
    Imagine in a alternate universe where Royce Rolls, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW, etc doesn't exists. The top premium car brand is Cadillac. People with disposable income, ranging from middle class to billionaires haven no choice but to buy Cadillacs if they want a luxury premium car. That's exactly what's happening in the EV market before, Tesla was the only premium one available. The top 1%, 10% or whatever are forced to buy Tesla if they want a 'luxury' EV. 

    Now those same people can move up the ladder and buy a Porsche instead, or stay in the same segment and choose Audi or Jaguar, or Mercedes.

     

    In the '60s a Cadillac was demonstrably better than the competition, in the '80s Mercedes, in the '00s Porsche, today Tesla.  You need to be to convince somebody to spend a pile of money on a depreciating asset that sits 95% of the time.  Shift the paradigm and imagine personal transport, not as car ownership, but simply the ability to get from A to B.  A car becomes simply a bigger bicycle.  Electric automated cars are Mobi [bike rental] on steriods but even more convenient.  Who makes a Mobi or Divvy or Santander Cycle?  The user doesn't care.  This won't happen with Taycan 1.0 or 2.0 but probably by 3.0.  What drives product differentiation at that point?  Probably not a lap timer in the middle of the dashboard.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX, thanks for the link, but couldn't get the stats without signing up for membership.  If you could summarize, I would appreciate it...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    waiting for PDK:
    Whoopsy:
    Imagine in a alternate universe where Royce Rolls, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW, etc doesn't exists. The top premium car brand is Cadillac. People with disposable income, ranging from middle class to billionaires haven no choice but to buy Cadillacs if they want a luxury premium car. That's exactly what's happening in the EV market before, Tesla was the only premium one available. The top 1%, 10% or whatever are forced to buy Tesla if they want a 'luxury' EV. 

    Now those same people can move up the ladder and buy a Porsche instead, or stay in the same segment and choose Audi or Jaguar, or Mercedes.

     

    In the '60s a Cadillac was demonstrably better than the competition, in the '80s Mercedes, in the '00s Porsche, today Tesla.  You need to be to convince somebody to spend a pile of money on a depreciating asset that sits 95% of the time.  Shift the paradigm and imagine personal transport, not as car ownership, but simply the ability to get from A to B.  A car becomes simply a bigger bicycle.  Electric automated cars are Mobi [bike rental] on steriods but even more convenient.  Who makes a Mobi or Divvy or Santander Cycle?  The user doesn't care.  This won't happen with Taycan 1.0 or 2.0 but probably by 3.0.  What drives product differentiation at that point?  Probably not a lap timer in the middle of the dashboard.

     

    I would argue even I the 60s Cadillac is still way behind Mercedes. Look no further than the Mercedes-Benz sedan.

    Anyways, other than being first and only choice in the premium EV market, which part of Tesla is better? A equivalent priced Audi/BMW/Mercedes has a much better interior. Heck, even those Lexus and Acura have better interior at a cheaper price point. Even the Korean cars have better build quality than Tesla. 

    EV cars are city appliances that gets from point A to point B as you have mentioned, so the longer range one gets from a Tesla is a moot point. Faster acceleration is also useless in a city traffic scenario, it simply just gets to the next pile of traffic from the previous stop light quicker, big deal. Any Tesla, or EV for that matters, isn't a good choice for a Sunday morning spirited drive on the back roads. 

    Porsche is trying to change that last point with the Taycan. It already have a superior interior, and now with their demonstration videos and disclosing of their record attempt, they also have a superior performance advantage. 


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    waiting for PDK:
    Whoopsy:
    Imagine in a alternate universe where Royce Rolls, Bentley, Mercedes, BMW, etc doesn't exists. The top premium car brand is Cadillac. People with disposable income, ranging from middle class to billionaires haven no choice but to buy Cadillacs if they want a luxury premium car. That's exactly what's happening in the EV market before, Tesla was the only premium one available. The top 1%, 10% or whatever are forced to buy Tesla if they want a 'luxury' EV. 

    Now those same people can move up the ladder and buy a Porsche instead, or stay in the same segment and choose Audi or Jaguar, or Mercedes.

     

    You need to be to convince somebody to spend a pile of money on a depreciating asset that sits 95% of the time.  Shift the paradigm and imagine personal transport, not as car ownership, but simply the ability to get from A to B.  A car becomes simply a bigger bicycle.  Electric automated cars are Mobi [bike rental] on steriods but even more convenient.  Who makes a Mobi or Divvy or Santander Cycle?  The user doesn't care.  This won't happen with Taycan 1.0 or 2.0 but probably by 3.0.  What drives product differentiation at that point?  Probably not a lap timer in the middle of the dashboard.

    This is what so many here either don't see or more likely don't want to see. 

    We as car enthusiasts are a dying breed. My wife and I drive the 7km to work together in the morning (so we can actually have 15 minutes of adult conversation), I jump out at my office building and my wife parks under hers. She drives home and I take transit or an Uber. We live in the downtown and walk to restaurants etc. We probably on average put 50-75km a week on the car. And we have two. Why exactly?

    If you start looking at car costs not as a per month cost but a per minute cost or a per KM cost there is little reason to have a car for the amount of time you use it. Certainly as everyday transport as opposed to a toy. 

    There are massive amounts of money and brain power in Silicon Valley and other places looking at this. If I could share a pool of MB, Jag, Audi equivalent cars that I only used when I needed them, and they drove themselves so I could have a real conversation on the phone or with my wife (or work on papers). You have them all EV and you reduce inner city smog and noise. etc...

    This is the future. It IS going to happen. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Pretty gloomy assessment, which my optimism and joy for life rejects.  You can apply that assessment to anything really. Watches, fine clothes, nice houses, good schools, poetry, literature, music, poetry--anything of quality (which can only be defined by the absence of it).  Why buy a Patek Philippe when a Timex of cell phone will do?  Why a fine house when a B and B will do?  Why go to Yale when an online course will do? Why read a poem if a news bite will do? Etc., etc.

    I own a Porsche because it gives me great pleasure every moment I am in it, even if I drive around the block, and that goes for enjoying a owning every other thing of quality. Oscar Wilde says it best in The Artist when he traded the sorrow that endureth forever for the pleasure that abideth for a moment.

    You are only a dying breed if you choose to be....


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    So this morning I was thinking about how compelling, in those modern times, the first full EV Porsche will be, when I came upon this.  At first I thought it was a really good looking Panamera and when I realized what it was, my heart started racing and I instantly morphed into one of those dumbasses who shoots videos while driving.

    It looks really good, relatively compact, low, squat and so sporty.  It is to me the most exciting Porsche in the line-up.

    Edit 1: Can someone help rotate the photos in the correct orientation? DONE 

    Edit 2: Also, how can one embed a video shot on the iPhone? 

    1566423811639image1.jpeg

    1566466315104image3.jpeg

    1566466324070image2.jpeg


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    This discussion is getting into the rather depressing topic of personal versus private property.  Some may recall that one has written before about Elon Musk's maternal grandfather and his senior leadership role within Technocracy, Inc., a shadowy neo-socialist organization started in the 1920s when a group of economists and engineers, including Thorstein Veblen, wanted to replace the price-based systems of the economy with professional oversight.  One of the aspects of this group was to increase the overall utilization of the car, and moving it into the overall category of transportation, by making cars a public, not private, good.  Sadly, for many motoring enthusiasts that goal seems more and more a reality.

    Cars have typically stood for something more than mere forms of transportation and as an extension of one's personality.  Without dwelling too much on the industrial organizational aspects, moving a car away from being viewed as a commodity allows for premium pricing among as select group of manufacturers.  Musk has followed the model of Henry Ford and the creation of the Model T as his template for Tesla; however, Musk has missed several important details.  Even those that profess emotional detachment from the automobile are still expressing an emotional sentiment.

    Ford missed this aspect of car ownership when he became too fixated driving down the per unit price of the Model T.  That optimization plan, while mobilizing the American public, fell apart when General Motors, through Chevrolet, introduced newer and newer product in myriad colors, not just black.  For those that have not followed the history of the Model T, Ford originally produced the car in a series of colors.  However, paint technology at that time led to large quantities of freshly painted car bodies drying in fields for days and days.  

    Ford intrinsically understood that work-in-process ("WIP") inventory consumed working capital.  In a desire to reduce the high levels of WIP, Ford tasked his engineers to develop a quick drying paint.  Those engineers found that stove paint was quick drying and because of its unique chemical formulation could only be produced in black, so Ford made the decision that all Model Ts would be painted black.  

    Meanwhile, General Motors tapped into the expertise of its major shareholder, DuPont Chemical to develop quick-drying colorful lacquer paints that broke the competitive advantages of Ford.  Ford responded by introducing colors back on the Model T.  Unfortunately, the Model T was woefully out-of-date but ole Henry was still too wedded to that car to change.   Finally, Ford's son, Edsel, convinced his father to develop a new car to replace the Model T.  That car, the Model A, was the most highly anticipated car of all times with confirmed orders of over 750,000 by the time it entered production in the 1927.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I understands for some portion of the population, owning a car isn't a desired, feasible or logical thing to do, and they would rather prefer to do car sharing thing, as there will be no obligations or commitment from their part.

    It's like some people in our society prefer to go to brothels instead of finding a real girlfriend or wife. They just need a hole. They don't want, can't retain or desire the responsibility of having their personal hole, they don't mind share a hole with others. And once they are done, they just pay and zip up their pants and go, no obligations. 


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The hole 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Ziggy:

     

    It looks really good, relatively compact, low, squat and so sporty.  It is to me the most exciting Porsche in the line-up.

    Nice catch . I think lots of people are warming up quite nicely  to the Taycan . Porsche 's marketing has also managed very well the build up .  I am actually also pretty excited about it . 


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    what to not be excited about?

    he does look good.

    you have as much autonomy or even more than your GT3.

    interior will be luxurious

    very sporty performance

     

    I prefer the Taycan any day of the week compared to base entry models SUVs or even the top end SUVs. fat, not very agile, questionable performance.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Taycan is huge for Porsche, lots at stake, like when they introduced the Cayenne back in the day.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

    I understands for some portion of the population, owning a car isn't a desired, feasible or logical thing to do, and they would rather prefer to do car sharing thing, as there will be no obligations or commitment from their part.

    It's like some people in our society prefer to go to brothels instead of finding a real girlfriend or wife. They just need a hole. They don't want, can't retain or desire the responsibility of having their personal hole, they don't mind share a hole with others. And once they are done, they just pay and zip up their pants and go, no obligations. 

    Like you say. In addition, cars have always been more than just a means of transportation. They have been a convenience, an expression of lifestyle and status. All the alternatives that only provide a means of transportation without taking into account these aspects is bound to fail imo.


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Ziggy:

    So this morning I was thinking about how compelling, in those modern times, the first full EV Porsche will be, when I came upon this.  At first I thought it was a really good looking Panamera and when I realized what it was, my heart started racing and I instantly morphed into one of those dumbasses who shoots videos while driving.

    It looks really good, relatively compact, low, squat and so sporty.  It is to me the most exciting Porsche in the line-up.

    Edit 1: Can someone help rotate the photos in the correct orientation? DONE 

    Edit 2: Also, how can one embed a video shot on the iPhone? 

    Ziggy, for your edit 2, I just pic the video like I would a picture to upload.  It takes a while but seems to work.  Hope that helps.  Thanks for the pics Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-22/tesla-jumps-after-german-press-says-musk-preparing-acquisition

    Article on ZH which seems to be written by people who don’t understand cars as one would think the absolutely least interesting point for VW to look at Tesla would be when it is about to launch the Taycan which should eat Tesla‘s lunch...

    thoughts?


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    996FourEss:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-22/tesla-jumps-after-german-press-says-musk-preparing-acquisition

    Article on ZH which seems to be written by people who don’t understand cars as one would think the absolutely least interesting point for VW to look at Tesla would be when it is about to launch the Taycan which should eat Tesla‘s lunch...

    thoughts?

    1566493511026image.jpeg

    Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

     


    --

     

    Mike

     

    918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    lexs4:
    Ziggy:

    So this morning I was thinking about how compelling, in those modern times, the first full EV Porsche will be, when I came upon this.  At first I thought it was a really good looking Panamera and when I realized what it was, my heart started racing and I instantly morphed into one of those dumbasses who shoots videos while driving.

    It looks really good, relatively compact, low, squat and so sporty.  It is to me the most exciting Porsche in the line-up.

    Edit 1: Can someone help rotate the photos in the correct orientation? DONE 

    Edit 2: Also, how can one embed a video shot on the iPhone? 

    Ziggy, for your edit 2, I just pic the video like I would a picture to upload.  It takes a while but seems to work.  Hope that helps.  Thanks for the pics Smiley

    Thank You!  Smiley

    1566510291126Video.MOV


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Taycan interior reveal this evening.  The number, size of the screens, and the impeccable integration makes Tesla look that much worse: https://www.motor1.com/news/366633/porsche-taycan-interior-revealed-official/


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    996FourEss:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-22/tesla-jumps-after-german-press-says-musk-preparing-acquisition

    Article on ZH which seems to be written by people who don’t understand cars as one would think the absolutely least interesting point for VW to look at Tesla would be when it is about to launch the Taycan which should eat Tesla‘s lunch...

    thoughts?

     

    Why would anyone want to buy Tesla at current price? At 40 billion, its about 4-5 times too expensive. 

    The right time for another company to buy Tesla would be when it is fair valued at 8-10 billion, and with a closing price under 15 billion. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    B59326DC-7AFE-4889-B8BB-BAC21C5B391F.jpeg


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    AB51E322-C039-4FEB-A6EA-BB4532CCC4D8.jpeg



    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    5978C0A6-BE9D-4E80-ADBA-E751D49CD6E4.jpeg


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I’m not keen on the big edge around the centre console. Looks like protecting wrap one uses on your sharp table edges when you have a toddler at home...


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    That looks really good


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I think it’s the nicer, more modern 911 interior


     
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