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    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Hell I would love to be middle class or even lower class. would save taxes for sure...

    at the end i discoverd with the right skill set most cars are fun to drive - even Fcars...

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    - "I've been in L.A. for three months now. I have money, I have taste. But I'm not on anybody's "A" list, and Saturday night is the loneliest night for the week for me!"

    Roger the Car Salesman: "Well, a Ferrari would certainly change that."

    - "Perhaps, Mmmm. But, you know, this is the one. Yes, yes yes... I saw three of these ( Ferrari 360 ) parked outside the local Starbucks this morning, which tells me only one thing. There's too many self-Indulgent wieners in this city with too much bloody money! Now, if I was driving a 1967 275 GTB four-cam...

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Nick, you're wearing this Porsche-bashing routine thin really.
    I dont think anyone in here believes that you are not able to do simple demographics and place P, F and other brands in the client segment they normally belong to.
    U dont have to be very clever to do that. In fact, the very reason why little kids stare at most P, L, F, AM sportscars is because they are not mainstream.
    So even kids know how to position brands.

    I think it's starting to bother people, that we have a member on Rennteam whose main purpose seems to be flaming others, provoking and disrespecting other people's choices.
    After the first 20 posts like this - it's safe to say that humor and irony is no longer the driving force behind these posts. Repeating the same joke over and over again is pretty useless.
    It seems the only goal with most of your posts is to tick people off, or project yourself as superior to the rest of us in here.
    Even tho I dont understand your reason for behaving like this, I am sure you have a very good reason for it.
    There is absolutely a payoff for you, or u wouldnt keep doing it.
    Trouble is you pay a price for it - namely decreasing respect from the rest of us with each new derogatory post.

    I think what you did for Bens wife was really cool, which means you are definately capable of behaving constructively.
    Hence I cant understand why you'd rather be known as a lame troll than a cool, nice guy. Perhaps the latter is too much work?

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    nberry said: What I find disturbing is apparently Europeans feel "middle class" is a pejorative term. Middle class in the US means middle in the center. It does not mean poor, cheap or some sort of class categorization. Middle class is main stream.

    If that is considered offensive to Europeans, then I am guilty as charged and I apologize. But I will not apologize for designating Porsche as main stream because in my opinion that is what it is. If it makes anyone feel any better, I also believe Ferrari is more of an elitist car and once again I will plead guilty as charged.



    Donj't backtrack now, Nick, saying "Does anyone doubt that Porsche is a middle class car?" comes across as derogatory for the middle-class, like its something bad.

    Obviously no one, in ANY part of the world would belive that Porsches is a middle class cars (do you know how much a Boxster is in Lasse's country?) and there are target population studies which show this, simply because of the sales price of these cars are not reachable for the middle-class. Middle class is the Mondeo or the BMW 3 series.

    So one would gather from such a statement that saying Porsche is middled class is not intended as a compliment or simply statement of a fact, but rather the opposite, and using middle class as an insult is actually as classy as a rap-star with an inch thick chain around his neck and gold teeth cruising in a open top Ferrari...

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Nick you cant be for real saying All SUV's are middle class vehicles? Maybe a Ford Explorer or Chevrolet Jimmy is in the USA, but a RR, Cayenne, X5, M/GL Benzes are def not.

    I ask you this and I dare you to answer it. Please point to one person you know who makes 40-50K in the US and has bought a new Porsche this year. Good luck!

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Nick you cant be for real saying All SUV's are middle class vehicles? Maybe a Ford Explorer or Chevrolet Jimmy is in the USA, but a RR, Cayenne, X5, M/GL Benzes are def not.

    I ask you this and I dare you to answer it. Please point to one person you know who makes 40-50K in the US and has bought a new Porsche this year. Good luck!



    Jim, never in a million years would I have thought I would get the response I did. Clearly, many drive Porsche's for something other than performance.

    BTW check the article written in the LA Times about people driving Porsche's while compromising where they live and what they wear. It was all about image. Thus, many who make less than $50,000 drive a Porsche.

    But enough of this. Even Dr. Phil is headed for the couch.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    I happen to agree with Nick 100%.. I have seen more and more people in this part of the world who are categorized as less than a middle class own Porsches... Lets admit it guys Porsche is the Toyota of the next decade.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Nick, that example hardly fits the stereotypical middle income person now does it?

    I knew a student in college that leased a new Ferrari but had to freeload in his girlfriends dorm room, a tragedy I know but does that make Ferrari a "student" car?? I bought my first new Porsche using VA college money, of course I could only then afford two decent bottles of French champagne a week. Did I even have half of a middle class income? No.

    LA??? There have been unemployed actors with F, L, M, P and D cars in Hwood for decades sleeping on peoples couches and using their unemployment checks to make their exotic car lease payments. Where have you been? For gods sakes man, you live in SoCal, you should be more aware!!

    So are Ferraris a car for both college students and the unemployed? I am sure some own them. This is America where anyone who can prove $1100 a month income from KFC can lease a Ferrari or Rolls Royce. Who cares wth they live anyway! Not our business is it!

    This thread has been very revealing. Nick, I think you accidently revealed your secret love for George Bush and his economic policies.

    Hillary Clinton just offered a $5k bond to every newborn, your apt rapture for Bushs "Porsches for the middle class" plan seems way better,,,, and by your standards it is working very well!.





    Re: Resale value rankings.

    A LA Times article showing people compromising life style to project an image that they could afford a Porsche is middle class? That's your evidence councilor? To me that shows someone trying to show that they are NOT middle class through the car they drive. This article clearly contradicts what you are trying to say.

    In the US, up until a couple months ago, someone could buy a house with no money down and without proving they could afford the mortgage payment. We all know how that is working out now as some people defaulted on the very first payment due.

    As for the reactions nick, if you think you've struck a nerve I think you are mistaken, I think people are simply reacting to the absurdity of your statement.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Resale value rankings/calcs are about as statistically accurate/relevant as similarly absurd JDPowers rankings/various crash test data (and claimed overall safety)....

    Cost of cars poorly correlates w/owner's income and/or net worth.....most affluent, smart guys are neither interested in cars...nor advertising their wealth to unwashed masses....

    Some billionaires in SiliconValley drive Prius; others drive Veyron/CL63/SL55, etc....and many billionaires in NYC are driven around in beat-up S550s (or even POS/dangerous LincTownCars)....choice of private plane often reveals more re: consumption/net worth than mere cars....some of the guys w/the most unassuming, low-profile cars casually fly around in the latest/greatest G550 (or larger).....

    In fact, would argue that most buyers of new F are fairly "aspirational"/middle-class in major urban regions like NYC/SF/London/LA....in SF, even dentists daily-commute via new 599......and poseur meccas like LA are full of illiterate/innumerate ricers/rappers who are avid buyers of used (and new) F/P, etc....

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    WBH said:
    Resale value rankings/calcs are about as statistically accurate/relevant as similarly absurd JDPowers rankings/various crash test data (and claimed overall safety)....

    Cost of cars poorly correlates w/owner's income and/or net worth.....most affluent, smart guys are neither interested in cars...nor advertising their wealth to unwashed masses....

    Some billionaires in SiliconValley drive Prius; others drive Veyron/CL63/SL55, etc....and many billionaires in NYC are driven around in beat-up S550s (or even POS/dangerous LincTownCars)....choice of private plane often reveals more re: consumption/net worth than mere cars....some of the guys w/the most unassuming, low-profile cars casually fly around in the latest/greatest G550 (or larger).....

    In fact, would argue that most buyers of new F are fairly "aspirational"/middle-class in major urban regions like NYC/SF/London/LA....in SF, even dentists daily-commute via new 599......and poseur meccas like LA are full of illiterate/innumerate ricers/rappers who are avid buyers of used (and new) F/P, etc....




    I agree

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Blanket statements like those are meaningless. First, define the typical Porsche. Second, define the typical middle-class household. You cannot, because the standard deviation is so large in both cases as to make any idea of "typical" useless.

    There have always been "cheap" Porsches and "expensive" Porsches. A base Boxster is definitely affordable by any middle class standards (except in countries with prohibitive car taxes ). A GT2 is not.
    (that's hardly new... ever since at least the 912)

    A childless middle class household has got a lot more disposable income (which they should be saving anyway ) than a family with several kids.


    On the other hand, Porsche does have traditional German middle class values. Reliable, well-built, excellent value at a justified price. But also a luxury item that is too shy to agree to be considered as such.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Nick - You still gotta love what this middle-class car drives like compared to the upper-crusty Ferrari (from EVO magazine):

    1st Porsche 997 GT3 RS (95.7)

    "The Scuderia is fantastic," says Bov, "but the RS just gives you that little bit more feedback and involvement, whether you're flat out or driving through town. It's also 95 grand when the Ferrari's Pounds170k and it's hard to get that out of your head because they're doing essentially the same job."

    Out of nine judges, five of us placed the RS first, while a sixth had it equal first with the Ferrari. Roger says it's his all-time fave 911. I reckon it's the best sports/supercar I've ever driven. If the Civic Type-R was a great drive up the Col de Guery, the RS was utterly inspirational.

    We're all agreed it has by some margin the best steering here, for its sense of connection and wealth of detailed feedback. "Stupendous engine, incredible steering and a chassis you'd never tire of" is Barker's summation. "If this was the one car sitting outside me house - I wish - I would have absolutely no regrets about not having one of the others," says Catchpole, and I know exactly what he means. As Metcalfe points out, it's not just a raw road-racer either. "I chose this for the trip down, and you'd never have done that with the previous RS. How do they make a car so competent on the road, then be so good on the track. The traction control doesn't get in the way either. And what an engine..."

    "What I really like," says Meaden, "is that a car that's completely traditional, with a stick-shift 'box and the engine at the wrong end, can compete with a car that's completely the opposite, loaded with technology, with a ridiculously fast gearshift and the facility to adjust everything minutely. It's personal preference at the end. This is probably the best 911 I've driven. It's always alive, you always feel what's going on, even if you don't drive it quickly. I just like the process of making it go, of making everything mesh and gel, and the gearing allows you to savour the full reach of the engine. You have to work at it - get it right and it starts to dance, and then it feels like no other car here."

    "The RS feels that bit more organic that the Scuderia, and by that I don't just mean slightly more feelsome (though it is), but because you sense it has evolved entirely naturally, with a clear bloodline from Porsche's motorsport programme, that it's a genuine brother to the Cup cars, where the Ferrari feels ever so slightly contrived, like it's trying a bit too hard to play up the F1 connection. Which just makes the Porsche that bit cooler. And you'd never, ever tire of finding it tucked up in your garage..."

    * evo Car of the Year 2007 *

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Kelly Blue Book says the five brands with the best overall predicted resale values after 5 years are

    1. VW 48.1%
    2. BMW 45.6
    3. Acura 45.4
    4. Honda 45.2
    5. Porsche 44.9

    The survey excludes low-volume models and most vehicles with sticker prices above $60,000.

    Does anyone doubt that Porsche is a middle class car?



    ...Nick

    J.Seven

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Grant how do you explain that the 599 beat out the GT3 which is essentially the same car as the RS? The Ring time difference between the two GT3's is about one second. Many reviewers are on record stating for the money the Gt3 is a better buy than the RS. Yet the RS beats the Scuderia?

    It is quite possible that had the Scud been a manual the result would have been different but considering their preference of the 599 over the GT3 that doesn't seem likely. What this is about is the strong bias for Porsche among British magazines. Do you realize that but for an eye lash the Gt3 could have been the car of the year in 2006 and Gt3RS 2007. Even EVO magazine would be embarrassed if that happened.

    A couple of years back EVO acknowledged the dominance of Porsche for their COTY and indicated in their qwest to be more balance they were concerned they may judge Porsche too harshly. Fat chance.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    EDITED BY MODERATOR

    David, your post was out of place comepletely and cruel, there will be no personal attacks on the forum. If Nick bothers you then counter-argue his posts with arguments and facts but refrain from insults, and derogatorry judgements about his life, health and what not. With these type of posts and the way you express them you cross the line and does little for proving anything or getting any support here, so tone it down out of respect of the forum and your fellow members.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    What makes Nick think that Ferraris are not middle class cars too? They are middle class cars in the UK since white collar middle class professionals, playboys and poseurs buy Ferraris here in the UK by the truckload.



    Ferraris are middle class cars too here in the San Francisco bay area. True, Ferraris are low volume, that's why you don't see more of them, not because people can't afford them around here. Well, people in the bay area might have better taste. Interesting 60 Minutes last week had a profile on Tom Perkins (the famouse VC) drives a Carrera GT and not a gaudy Ferrari. I consider myself middle class, perhaps upper middle class, and I could afford a F360 if I really wanted one. In fact my next sports car might be a Ferrari if it's not as ugly as the F360/F430.

    David

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    When I first came on Rennteam one of Nick's anti-Porsche posts really wound me up and I responded accordingly.

    I was immediately advised by a long-standing member that, by rising to it, I was, in fact, encouraging him and if everyone simply ignored his controversial posts he would probably revert to his better side.

    I think this is probably still good advice.

    We've all recently seen his good side and I'm sure there's a sense of humour in there somewhere.

    As it is - he's getting off on this response and it all makes no sense whatsoever...

    I'm on my seventh Porsche but I don't like every model they've ever made. Some are higher 'class' than others but none are ordinary.

    It's all a matter of personal taste and everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just the way an opinion is expressed that's important.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    It's funny what we concider "middle class" or "upper middle class". Most of us are urbanites and either from wealthy countries or living in the more upscale areas of our not so wealthy countries. In that reguard "middle class" takes on a wholely different conitation than it would in rural middle america or South Africa, Canada or even (to a lesser extent) the U.K.

    I live in Toronto. The average home price just went over $400,000 and it's that low because of all of the 400 sq.ft. condos in the city that sell in the $200's. The semi detached single family home average is almost $600,000. In new York city the median and mean price of an apartment is now over a million...

    I would hazard a guess you would be hard pressed to even FIND a house in Idaho for that money!

    North American Upper Middle Class "The Professional Class" is supposed to be an average of $63,000 a year with a total hosehold income average of under $90,000.

    a $90,000 household would have a hard time carrying a $600,000 house, let alone a million dollar one. And yet this is the average for Upper Middle Class... They certainly couldn't afford a house like that AND a lease on a new Porsche (other than MAYBE a Cayenne V6).

    All I'm saying is that our views of the "Middle Class" is not the norm. 5% of households in North America earn over $100,000. 1.5% earn over 250,000 and 0.01% earn over $500,000 (that's just over 140,000 hoseholds in total by the way). This is NOT the middle classs!!!!

    Most middle class people do not buy $60,000 cars, they buy $35-40,000 cars. And the certainly don't buy$100,000 Porsche's or $250,000 Ferrari's...

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    John H said:
    It's just the way an opinion is expressed that's important.



    Bingo. Especially on the Net!

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    EDITED BY MODERATOR

    David, your post was out of place comepletely and cruel, there will be no personal attacks on the forum. If Nick bothers you then counter-argue his posts with arguments and facts but refrain from insults, and derogatorry judgements about his life, health and what not. With these type of posts and the way you express them you cross the line and does little for proving anything or getting any support here, so tone it down out of respect of the forum and your fellow members.



    I want to say my comments were not directed at Nick per se. What I posted does apply to trolls in general, not just Nick. Trolls are a different kind of person on internet forums and there are psychological reasons why they are the way the are. What I posted was meant to describe why certain people end up being trolls on the internet. It wasn't directed at Nick specifically per se except for one example applicable to Nick. I don't think there's any doubt, not even among Nick's supporters, that Nick is a "unique" contributor to rennteam.com and IS a troll par excellence (every internet forum has its resident troll). The thread he started here and his responses are absolute proof of it!

    David

    p.s. good articles on trolls and troll psychology:

    http://www.mj-holmes.com/trolls.htm
    http://amasci.com/weird/flamer.html


    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    John H said:
    When I first came on Rennteam one of Nick's anti-Porsche posts really wound me up and I responded accordingly.

    I was immediately advised by a long-standing member that, by rising to it, I was, in fact, encouraging him and if everyone simply ignored his controversial posts he would probably revert to his better side.

    I think this is probably still good advice.

    We've all recently seen his good side and I'm sure there's a sense of humour in there somewhere.

    As it is - he's getting off on this response and it all makes no sense whatsoever...

    I'm on my seventh Porsche but I don't like every model they've ever made. Some are higher 'class' than others but none are ordinary.

    It's all a matter of personal taste and everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just the way an opinion is expressed that's important.



    "It's all a matter of personal taste and everyone is entitled to an opinion. It's just the way an opinion is expressed that's important."

    That's the key to being a successful troll. Nick thinks hard and knows exactly how to word his opinions as to draw the most ire from the community (Porsche fans) he's targetting.

    "As it is - he's getting off on this response and it all makes no sense whatsoever..."

    It makes no sense to most people, I agree. However it makes sense to only the troll, it energizes the troll, feeds the troll, and the troll loves it.

    David

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Kelly Blue Book says the five brands with the best overall predicted resale values after 5 years are

    1. VW 48.1%
    2. BMW 45.6
    3. Acura 45.4
    4. Honda 45.2
    5. Porsche 44.9

    The survey excludes low-volume models and most vehicles with sticker prices above $60,000.

    Does anyone doubt that Porsche is a middle class car?



    Sorry Nick, all I can read from this is that Porsche sells enough cars in the US to make it's reported resale values statisticly significant. Going from that to Porsche being a "middle-class" car is a stretch, and why you choose to spice it with as much arrogance only you know.

    Reading your posts, I do see certain clues to why you are a good lawyer, I just wish you'd refrain from using some of the supporting skills to your profession on this forum as often as you do.

    But in the end;

    1. the information is actually quite interesting.
    2. do still keep posting, Nick

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    How do you get through the day with your nose always pointed toward the sky? You miss so much.

    I am sensing the middle class moniker is not readily accepted by the Porsche owners.



    You yourself note that the survey excludes cars that cost in excess of $60K so I suspect those figures are only for Boxsters, a few Cayennes and perhaps some of the last 968's that were sold. "Easiest way to lie is with statistics" - forgot whose quote I'm paraphrasing.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Kelly Blue Book says the five brands with the best overall predicted resale values after 5 years are

    1. VW 48.1%
    2. BMW 45.6
    3. Acura 45.4
    4. Honda 45.2
    5. Porsche 44.9

    The survey excludes low-volume models and most vehicles with sticker prices above $60,000.

    Does anyone doubt that Porsche is a middle class car?



    And you are a lawyer? How did you come to the conclusion that Porsche is middle class cars from that list?

    For under $60k the only Porsche one can buy are Boxsters and Caymans and the Cayennes and that does not includes the upper ranges of those models, even the entry level ones have to be lightly equipped to be included, all models 911s are excluded.

    Only conclusion I can see from the list is that the Boxsters and Caymans keep their value pretty good.

    VW's entire model ranges are good on value, which is actually a surprise to me, same for Acura and Hondas but that's not a big surprise, the BMWs that can be counted are the Z4s and 3 series and since the 3s have always been regarded as a best in class car and are in great demand over the years the resale value is not a surrpise either.

    A simple objection from a junior legal aid can throw your point of view out the court window Come on Nick, I know you can do better than that, gives us a better argument.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Pretty accurate description of our hero:
    "Internet trolls are additionally interested in meeting their own attention-needs, which are often unmet in their real life, and may suffer from various psychological disorders. Whether trolling is a protected free speech activity or whether it amounts to libel and defamation depends upon the nature, content, and result of the statements by the troll.

    Internet trolls have been described as "sad people, living their lonely lives vicariously through those they see as strong and successful." They typically possess a poorly developed set of social skills and have difficulty viewing their actions from the perspectives of their victims. They may be callous to the fact that they are harming real people, instead viewing Internet users as "digital abstractions". They may thus feel no remorse for harm they cause, and in fact may judge their own level of "success" by the amount of that harm. Most are impervious to rationale, mature arguments against their wares, and will protest that their right to free speech is being curtailed if ever there is an attempt to call them on their trolling."

    Source: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    Whoopsy said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Kelly Blue Book says the five brands with the best overall predicted resale values after 5 years are

    1. VW 48.1%
    2. BMW 45.6
    3. Acura 45.4
    4. Honda 45.2
    5. Porsche 44.9

    The survey excludes low-volume models and most vehicles with sticker prices above $60,000.

    Does anyone doubt that Porsche is a middle class car?



    And you are a lawyer? How did you come to the conclusion that Porsche is middle class cars from that list?

    For under $60k the only Porsche one can buy are Boxsters and Caymans and the Cayennes and that does not includes the upper ranges of those models, even the entry level ones have to be lightly equipped to be included, all models 911s are excluded.

    Only conclusion I can see from the list is that the Boxsters and Caymans keep their value pretty good.

    VW's entire model ranges are good on value, which is actually a surprise to me, same for Acura and Hondas but that's not a big surprise, the BMWs that can be counted are the Z4s and 3 series and since the 3s have always been regarded as a best in class car and are in great demand over the years the resale value is not a surrpise either.

    A simple objection from a junior legal aid can throw your point of view out the court window Come on Nick, I know you can do better than that, gives us a better argument.



    Read carefully my post. It indicates it "excludes low volume models" WHICH PORSCHE IS NOT and "MOST" vehicles with sticker price above $60,000. I do not believe Porsche was excluded because most of their cars are stickered above $60,000.

    Porsches are the Lexus in the sport car field. Well built, reliable and good value. Nothing to be ashamed about.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Porsches are the Lexus in the sport car field. Well built, reliable and good value. Nothing to be ashamed about.



    LOL. You should become a comedian instead of a lawyer. Whaa-haha! You know, you almost made me laugh...

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Porsches are the Lexus in the sport car field. Well built, reliable and good value. Nothing to be ashamed about.



    That's the best compliment towards Porsche that I've heard from you in a long time, Nick.

    Re: Resale value rankings.

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Porsches are the Lexus in the sport car field. Well built, reliable and good value. Nothing to be ashamed about.



    That's the best compliment towards Porsche that I've heard from you in a long time, Nick.



    I believe comparing a Porsche to a Lexus is called "sarcasm", Alan. Not a compliment.

     
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