Crown

 it does look huge on the roads mostly because its wide

Again, don't get me wrong: the Panamera looks very special compared to other sedans of its class. This is exactly the problem why business men over here seem to avoid it. The BMW 7 series, Audi A8 and Mercedes S class are not too spectacular and de-badging is also very easy.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Simply, Panamera isn't a regular  car for business purposes... It's some kind of a lifestyle item, IMO.

RC:

Again, don't get me wrong: the Panamera looks very special compared to other sedans of its class. This is exactly the problem why business men over here seem to avoid it. The BMW 7 series, Audi A8 and Mercedes S class are not too spectacular and de-badging is also very easy.

I find it fascinating that successful people in the country most responsible for high-performance automobiles are reduced to hiding their enjoyment from their other countrymen.

--

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

Mike, this is actually a very very sad thing indeed. You just can't ignore the people around you.

I would call Germany a state with a capitalist brain, a socialist heart and an anarchist soul.

Not sure if this makes sense to you but I guess you get the point.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

I would call Germany a state with a capitalist brain, a socialist heart and an anarchist soul.

Well put

TEE:

RC:

I would call Germany a state with a capitalist brain, a socialist heart and an anarchist soul.

Well put

I like the above aphorism.

I can understand the first 2 characteristics but how is the "anarchist soul" demonstrated in real life? From what I've come to know Germans are very obedient to State Authority and to Rules in general

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

reginos:

From what I've come to know Germans are very obedient to State Authority and to Rules in general

 

 Only on paper.  We learned from the many foreigners living here and influencing German society in both ways, positive and negative. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

reginos:

From what I've come to know Germans are very obedient to State Authority and to Rules in general

 

 

 Only on paper.  We learned from the many foreigners living here and influencing German society in both ways, positive and negative. 

RC:

reginos:

From what I've come to know Germans are very obedient to State Authority and to Rules in general

 

 

 Only on paper.  We learned from the many foreigners living here and influencing German society in both ways, positive and negative. 

 I don't think that the presence of foreigners in Germany would have explained the events of 1968 or the Red Army Fraction.  

fritz

fritz:

 I don't think that the presence of foreigners in Germany would have explained the events of 1968 or the Red Army Fraction.  

Maybe foreign operatives of KGB?

Mike

2005 Carrera GT - Signal Yellow + 2008 Tesla Roadster - Thunder Gray +1972 BMW 3.0 CSi - Nachtblau +2009 Bentley Arnage T - Black Saphire

W8MM:

fritz:

 I don't think that the presence of foreigners in Germany would have explained the events of 1968 or the Red Army Fraction.  

 

Maybe foreign operatives of KGB?

KGB and former STASI. Btw: Vladimir Putin was head of a KGB branch in former East Germany, maybe we should ask him.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 Vladimir Putin is a smart one by the way... in Russia a lot of clans were trying to seize the power and he was the one to get it. He always remembers his German times with great pleasure

rgrd Germans - I think the social unrest lies somewhere in the past - long before the 20th century...  all nations have their unexplicable trais and Germans do as well

may be Panamera is not a German type of a car - it;s more like Bentley

RC, is Bentley popular in German? if yes - then Panamera should be as well!

BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class are popular in Germany. I didn't see many Audi A8 lately but many in the past. One of my customers drives a Bentley Continental GT Coupe, she is a baroness (real one). Otherwise, I haven't seen a Bentley here for some time, only in Munich once.

You can see tons of BMW 5 series and Audi A6.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 Germans are not open to luxury spending and that's why it is

Panamera is more of a Bentley type - it's expressing and luxurious car.. Bentleys a re popular in the Middle East, Emerging markets, among aristocracy...

in Munich I would say rather S class, 7 series and A8 (it will take its share back with the 2010 MY). X5 M is very smart choice in your location, I should say - the best one..

Though for myself I will wait for new Cay Turbo - as I would like to have such an interior as in Panamera and old good badge:-))))

RC:

......she is a baroness (real one).......

 Pray tell...

What is a real Baroness..how far back do you want to go, with regard to who stole what from whom?

artur777:

 Germans are not open to luxury spending and that's why it is

I wouldn't say that, on the contrary. Germany is one of the biggest markets worldwide for luxury stuff.

May I provide an example: we have a customer who is a university professor for law, a pretty well known one, he wrote many books. He wears a A.Lange & Söhne watch for over 30000 EUR but rides a bicycle most of the time, even now in winter time. His comments about my wife's M3 ("Knatterkiste"...meaning noise maker) were very clear and he expressed his disappointment with me driving such a car. Seriously.

I have many other examples of a similar kind, it always comes to one thing: showing off doesn't pay off over here, on the contrary, it can be very harmful from many points of view.

This may also be the reason why German society is actually a pretty safe society. We have criminals over here too of course but compared to other countries, it is safe. My neighbor, a bigshot doctor, has no alarm system, he keeps his garage with his Porsche 911 in it open all the time, people are going in and out. When I asked him if he isn't afraid of burglars or other criminals and he seriously told me that he isn't afraid because there is nothing to steal from him. WTF...seriously ?  Apparently many people here are keeping such a "low level" appearance that they really believe that nobody notices or whatever. I noticed and I'm no criminal.

It is however true: I know many real rich people over here and none of them is driving around in a secure car or with bodyguards around. There is just no need for that. For now.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

cnc:

RC:

......she is a baroness (real one).......

 Pray tell...

What is a real Baroness..how far back do you want to go, with regard to who stole what from whom?

 

Not sure what you mean ? Just wanted to point one that she isn't a baroness through marriage but a "true blue blood" if you will. Of course if I would go back in history, there might be a point where the blue blood isn't that blue anymore but I call this nitpicking.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

I see the point

But why should you hide your showing off then? it looks like a lot of people there do as you do - buy things and not show them...it is not only with cars I guess... time should change it and make people more tolerant especially if you earn you money honestly

artur777:

Panamera is more of a Bentley type - it's expressing and luxurious car.. Bentleys a re popular in the Middle East, Emerging markets, among aristocracy...

 

 That is quite a good comparison. Indeed the Panamera is perceived to play in a similar league as the Bentley here in Germany: a bit on the flashy side, a car that likes to show that it was not cheap. For many German buyers this is indeed a bit of a problem. Even a 997, in contrast, has a much more positive reception over here. Sounds strange - but is true 

RC, your rather sad description has been  one of the reasons why I moved to  the US. This German envy ( Spiessertum) against e.g. luxury cars is absurd and hypocrite.  However, I do agree that we all ought  to move to more energy efficient cars. In that regard the Panamera is a real progress to the out-going Cayenne. Actually, my point is, the Pana grows on me a lot, my wife is totally in love with this car. For the US the Pana's dimensions  are just perfect and the model seems to be sold quite well over here. Ok, I stop raving.

Stephan  

MKSGR:

artur777:

Panamera is more of a Bentley type - it's expressing and luxurious car.. Bentleys a re popular in the Middle East, Emerging markets, among aristocracy...

 

 That is quite a good comparison. Indeed the Panamera is perceived to play in a similar league as the Bentley here in Germany: a bit on the flashy side, a car that likes to show that it was not cheap. For many German buyers this is indeed a bit of a problem. Even a 997, in contrast, has a much more positive reception over here. Sounds strange - but is true 

That's very positive for Porsche though,  because it gives them the leverage to ask a higher price for it than the usual BMW and M-B limousines. So, the Panamera is a bargain (with better dynamics too) in the Bentley class than an expensive 7 series competitor.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

reginos:

That's very positive for Porsche though,  because it gives them the leverage to ask a higher price for it than the usual BMW and M-B limousines. So, the Panamera is a bargain (with better dynamics too) in the Bentley class than an expensive 7 series competitor.

 

 

Yes and no. If Porsche would want to sell 2000 Panamera per year, yes. With production numbers of 10000, 20000 or even 30000 Panamera per year (as planned), I doubt that this is going to happen.

For the US, the Panamera may be an OK exec/rich people's car. For Germany, it isn't. Not now and probably not in the near future.

The new Audi A8 actually proves my point as the Audi development boss told the press that they tried to also build a "socially acceptable" car.
Wait for MUCH more people to loose their jobs in the US and you may understand this over there too I'm afraid.

You can't just fire people and a couple of days later, you drive a brandnew Panamera Turbo. This is something you just can't do over here.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

The Pananmera price level in Germany is definitely out of sync.  In the US prices are somehow ok if you  compare the Pana to a Masarati Quatroporte ( Pana S even slightly less expensive ) 

I find, however, that the Pana is too expensive compared to a Cayenne.  

irehab:

I find, however, that the Pana is too expensive compared to a Cayenne.  

Thats exactly my point. With such a new product, Porsche should have given customers the possibility to choose: I would have priced the Cayenne and Panamera the same, let customers decide which one they buy. Btw: the price tag of the Panamera was a marketing department decision, they wanted to position it "above" the Cayenne.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

and that's also why the Pana is so so big,  Just to put it into the 7&S class league and price it "accordingly". My guess is that P's engineers would have rather given the car 5 series dimensions. 

The new 5 series isn't too far away from the Panamera size-wise but it surely doesn't look this way. When I visited Weissach once, next to the "E-Werk" (a real sanctuary btw. ), there was a raw body of a BMW 5 series which apparently was used for Panamera development by that time. I also saw an Audi A8 with PCCB and testing equipment inside it but I'm not sure this one had something to do with Panamera development.

Porsche will do with the next Panamera generation what they did with the next Cayenne generation. They're gonna size it down optically by reducing proportions. Shouldn't be too difficult.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

My dealer tells me (and I have not confirmed it personally) is that the Panamera is priced directly in line with the 997 series in the U.S.  For example, the Panamera S is the same as the Carrera S, the Panamera 4S is same as the Carrera 4S, the Panamera Turbo is priced the same as the 997 turbo. 

Yes, this is true...for the US.

In Germany however, the Panamera S is over 10000 (!) EUR more expensive than the 997 Carrera S.

The Panamera Turbo is 10000 EUR cheaper than the 997 Turbo, weird.

In general, a well equipped Panamera Turbo is around 170000 EUR in Germany.

In the US, the almost same car costs aprox. 170000 USD. Add lets say 7% tax to it and you have almost 182000 USD.

Now use the current exchange rate EUR/USD and a Panamera Turbo in the US costs aprox. 126000 EUR.

Meaning: a Panamera Turbo is 44000 EUR (!) cheaper in the US than in Germany. For this kind of money, you get a base Boxster without any options over here.

I know you can't compare exchange rates but in my opinion, the Panamera is just too expensive for a Porsche sedan. People over here are willing to spend serious money on a Porsche sportscar and in the past maybe even on a family Porsche but since the Panamera has four rear seats only and a very limited cargo space, I doubt the Panamera will be used as a family car. I'm the typical Porsche "family car buyer" and I passed on the Panamera for various reasons. I know enough people over here who think the same: Panamera is great but just too expensive compared to the Cayenne. I just hope this doesn't mean that Porsche makes the next Cayenne generation more expensive.

Again: Panamera...fantastic sedan, especially the Turbo. Size (perception) and price are just not right for Europe.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (03/2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

 Christian,

why do you compare the Panamera price with the Cayenne price? 

For me it doens´t make sense to compare this two concepts, as it does not make sense to comapre ML with S-class or X5 with 7-class.

I am with you, that the Panamera is too expensive. But if you take the same BMW 7-class or MB S-class you you will find similiar prices. Porsche adds some extra-€ for the image and the brand. But this apllies to Boxster when you compare it to SLK or z4, too.

AM
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