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    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    ...works for me Pureblue!!
    --


    Porsche Carrera GTS (2012); Porsche Cayenne Diesel (2012)


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    PureBlue:

    Mmm...can I ask a simple (or perhaps even stupid) question, on the back of these discussions about a 911 not being a "practical" alternative due to space constraints?  If one's wife is already driving a family car, e.g. a Cayenne, X5, Q7 or whatever, why would it be impractical and/or selfish to buy a 911 for oneself?  Surely, it is not necessary to have two "family cars" in one family - or am I missing something?  SmileySmiley

    Yes, simple answer (for me) , the X5 is going, so want something that does the lot (GTR, M3, M5).


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    PureBlue:

    Mmm...can I ask a simple (or perhaps even stupid) question, on the back of these discussions about a 911 not being a "practical" alternative due to space constraints?  If one's wife is already driving a family car, e.g. a Cayenne, X5, Q7 or whatever, why would it be impractical and/or selfish to buy a 911 for oneself?  Surely, it is not necessary to have two "family cars" in one family - or am I missing something?  SmileySmiley

     

    I can easily explain why this isn't possible...anymore. I pay 1700 EUR lease rate per month. 1700 EUR for a car I barely use (mostly weekends), a car I can't drive to work because my customers already make a weird face when they have to spend 5 EUR for a package of Aspirin.

    In winter time, I can't drive my Carrera GTS because I don't want to spend another 3000-6000 EUR, depending on how I get the winter wheels and from where, for winter wheels/tires. I would still drive the car only on weekends.

    Now let's get back to the weekends I drive the car: I have a wife and two kids. On weekends, we love to drive to Lake Ammer or Starnberg or to drive to an amusement park, usually a 1-2 hours drive (one-way), depending where we are heading to. It is impossible to take the kids in the back of the 997 Carrera GTS Cab because the rear seats are horrible. After 20 km, they can barely move, the poor kids. The new 991 Coupe is slightly better than the old one but my daughter is pretty big for her age and  she almost hits the rear window with her head, it is also a pretty tight and not pleasant feel to sit in the rear if you are not a small kid. Not really suitable for longer trips.

    That said, I would drive the 911 for let's say one or two hours a weekend, if I'm lucky. Is that really worth 1700 EUR per month ? With that kind of money, I could probably rent a 911 for four weekends per month and still have some money left.

    It really isn't worth it, especially since I would need to pay for the Cayenne Turbo "family car" too. My wife can't afford paying a very high lease rate in her business, so it would be impossible for her to pay for the Cayenne.

    Currently, the Panamera Turbo S is on my mind too. At least I would be able to drive around with my family in it but I wouldn't be able to drive to work in this car because of my customers. I rented a small garage next to my business and I haven't tried yet if the Panamara would fit in but even if it would, some of the customers would see me in that car and this really isn't a good thing since the Panamera is considered over here a car for the "rich".

    Bottom line is, I have two choices now: Getting a Cayenne Turbo Powerkit and being able to drive it whereever I want to, including my business or getting a Panamera Turbo S and being able to drive it mostly on weekends but with my family.

    Unfortunately the Panamera Turbo S choice would pose another problem: The Panamera facelift. If Porsche decides to do more facelift than I heard of so far, I end up with an "old" car over night when the facelift comes. Since I need to keep the Panamera Turbo S for at least 4 years, I wouldn't be too happy about it.

    Another strong point for the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit is the winter driving capability. Yes, the Panamera Turbo S has AWD but the Cayenne has much more ground clearance. I know that the Panamera can be lifted (air suspension) but only up to a certain level, which isn't probably high enough to be able to fight through high(er) snow levels.

    As you can see, I spend a lot of thinking on this matter but I can't really find an easy and satisfying (money, kids, etc.) solution.

    I just don't want another garage queen. My 997 Turbo spent 5 years in a garage, I barely drove with it. After 5 years, I had 28000 or so km onboard, ridiculous for somebody like me who loves cars. I thought that I could drive the 997 Carrera GTS to work but after a couple of pretty offensive comments from my employees and some customers, I decided to leave this car at home. Gladly, they (employees, customers) thought that the car was a loaner because they know that I had a Cayenne and I told them that the Porsche dealer wants to sell me a new car. Smiley I hate doing this but if people react that way, people you actually need, you better be careful. I know that many of you wouldn't care but I can't afford it, sorry.

    When the kids will be older, things may change. I still want to have a nice weekends with friends or buddies to drive to a nice track. I would love to meet some of you guys on the track and/or just for some fun driving on weekends over here in Germany but I just don't have the time anymore. In the past, I was able to sneak out of my business and enjoy some quality time in my car(s). I can't do that anymore because business slowed down (due to some stupid new laws in Germany) and I had to fire a main employee who always replaced me when I was gone. This is why I enjoy every single minute of quality time with my kids and wife on weekends, I work a lot and usually I'm back home at 7 pm or even later during weekdays.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    Thanks for explaining.  I now understand your situation.  It's sad, but logical.


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    PureBlue:

    Thanks for explaining.  I now understand your situation.  It's sad, but logical.

    Logical ? Definitely. Sad ? Well...yes and no, kind of sad. I shouldn't really complaint that I need to choose between a 911 and a Cayenne Turbo or Panamera Turbo S. Smiley

    Family comes first, business second and both affect my car choice. This is life. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    RC,

    the way you describe, it has to be a Cayenne Turbo with badge delete.  I drove it at a Porsche Roadshow event and love the new interior.  Performance is always good as you know.  If you don't go to the track, then it should satisfy all your driving need.  Too bad it does not have PDK yet.

    on the other hand, the trunk of Panamera is just way too small as a family car.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    Thanks, Tim. I agree, the trunk of the Panamera isn't really great and we need a car for the mountains, incl. ski gear and so on, not much room left for that. On the other hand, we could use a transport box on the roof for skiing, not nice looking though and I would be limited in speed (these boxes usually have a 160 kph "limit") on the Autobahn.

    No, I wouldn't even dream of track racing a Cayenne or Panamera but I would definitely join a track event once per year, just for fun. This doesn't really require a sports car though.

    If Porsche would offer a Cayenne Turbo with Panamera Turbo S performance, it would be a no-brainer for me. The fact that even a 991 Carrera S would outrun me on the straight line in my 163k EUR SUV would be kind of...I don't know, lame.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    Any news about GTS?


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    DIMI:

    Any news about GTS?

    All indications are pointing to a reveal at the Paris Motor Show in September. Talk went around that Porsche wanted to show it in Geneva in March but chose not to in order to focus on the reveal of the new Boxster.

    Keep an eye out for a September release, but we should see the car unveiled online sometime this summer.

    rulesdontapply


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    DIMI:

    Any news about GTS?

    Last word a couple of months ago was: Press release in spring 2012. We have spring now...could happen anytime.

    Porsche is under no pressure here, the Cayenne seems to sell pretty well.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    i was told a manual for north america again!


    --

    2010 997.2 turbo cab 6 speed / 08 Cayenne GTS Manual - 08 RS 60 sold -04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    CPA4S:

    i was told a manual for north america again!

    No manual as far as I heard. It wouldn't make much sense to offer manual on the Cayenne GTS while the Panamera GTS gets PDK only. 

    Who knows...maybe because there is no PDK for the Cayenne, they will offer manual... Smiley

    In my opinion, manual doesn't make much sense in a SUV but to each his own I guess. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    RC:
    PureBlue:

    Mmm...can I ask a simple (or perhaps even stupid) question, on the back of these discussions about a 911 not being a "practical" alternative due to space constraints?  If one's wife is already driving a family car, e.g. a Cayenne, X5, Q7 or whatever, why would it be impractical and/or selfish to buy a 911 for oneself?  Surely, it is not necessary to have two "family cars" in one family - or am I missing something?  SmileySmiley

     

    I can easily explain why this isn't possible...anymore. I pay 1700 EUR lease rate per month. 1700 EUR for a car I barely use (mostly weekends), a car I can't drive to work because my customers already make a weird face when they have to spend 5 EUR for a package of Aspirin.

    In winter time, I can't drive my Carrera GTS because I don't want to spend another 3000-6000 EUR, depending on how I get the winter wheels and from where, for winter wheels/tires. I would still drive the car only on weekends.

    Now let's get back to the weekends I drive the car: I have a wife and two kids. On weekends, we love to drive to Lake Ammer or Starnberg or to drive to an amusement park, usually a 1-2 hours drive (one-way), depending where we are heading to. It is impossible to take the kids in the back of the 997 Carrera GTS Cab because the rear seats are horrible. After 20 km, they can barely move, the poor kids. The new 991 Coupe is slightly better than the old one but my daughter is pretty big for her age and  she almost hits the rear window with her head, it is also a pretty tight and not pleasant feel to sit in the rear if you are not a small kid. Not really suitable for longer trips.

    That said, I would drive the 911 for let's say one or two hours a weekend, if I'm lucky. Is that really worth 1700 EUR per month ? With that kind of money, I could probably rent a 911 for four weekends per month and still have some money left.

    It really isn't worth it, especially since I would need to pay for the Cayenne Turbo "family car" too. My wife can't afford paying a very high lease rate in her business, so it would be impossible for her to pay for the Cayenne.

    Currently, the Panamera Turbo S is on my mind too. At least I would be able to drive around with my family in it but I wouldn't be able to drive to work in this car because of my customers. I rented a small garage next to my business and I haven't tried yet if the Panamara would fit in but even if it would, some of the customers would see me in that car and this really isn't a good thing since the Panamera is considered over here a car for the "rich".

    Bottom line is, I have two choices now: Getting a Cayenne Turbo Powerkit and being able to drive it whereever I want to, including my business or getting a Panamera Turbo S and being able to drive it mostly on weekends but with my family.

    Unfortunately the Panamera Turbo S choice would pose another problem: The Panamera facelift. If Porsche decides to do more facelift than I heard of so far, I end up with an "old" car over night when the facelift comes. Since I need to keep the Panamera Turbo S for at least 4 years, I wouldn't be too happy about it.

    Another strong point for the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit is the winter driving capability. Yes, the Panamera Turbo S has AWD but the Cayenne has much more ground clearance. I know that the Panamera can be lifted (air suspension) but only up to a certain level, which isn't probably high enough to be able to fight through high(er) snow levels.

    As you can see, I spend a lot of thinking on this matter but I can't really find an easy and satisfying (money, kids, etc.) solution.

    I just don't want another garage queen. My 997 Turbo spent 5 years in a garage, I barely drove with it. After 5 years, I had 28000 or so km onboard, ridiculous for somebody like me who loves cars. I thought that I could drive the 997 Carrera GTS to work but after a couple of pretty offensive comments from my employees and some customers, I decided to leave this car at home. Gladly, they (employees, customers) thought that the car was a loaner because they know that I had a Cayenne and I told them that the Porsche dealer wants to sell me a new car. Smiley I hate doing this but if people react that way, people you actually need, you better be careful. I know that many of you wouldn't care but I can't afford it, sorry.

    When the kids will be older, things may change. I still want to have a nice weekends with friends or buddies to drive to a nice track. I would love to meet some of you guys on the track and/or just for some fun driving on weekends over here in Germany but I just don't have the time anymore. In the past, I was able to sneak out of my business and enjoy some quality time in my car(s). I can't do that anymore because business slowed down (due to some stupid new laws in Germany) and I had to fire a main employee who always replaced me when I was gone. This is why I enjoy every single minute of quality time with my kids and wife on weekends, I work a lot and usually I'm back home at 7 pm or even later during weekdays.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

    HI RC,

    With your words you have put the nail down to many Porsche owners concerns. However, as you say, the 991 hasnt changd anything when it comes to "family use" - when you ask me - this is a good thing. Its a sports car..and not a panamera or Cayenne..but Porsche has put the 991 them closer to these two - which I dont like. Real sports cars are about "no compromise":)..the harder they are, the less they are usable..the closer you get to a real one:)

    Coming to your question: is it worth for 1700 to lease a Porsche? Well - again my simple and blunt direct answer: YES! If one doenst have the money for this - one shouldt get such a car. I know this may soumd harsh..but what else can we say.

    In your situation the Cayenne or the panamera would be the best compromise..but they are a compromise. You would be loosing on the sports car feeling..If I was in your situation, keep the GTS for yourself, youre working hard enough, you also deserve something - your family needs to recognise this. Youre doing a lot for them - so they should also accept that you spend some money on a not so necessary thing as a GTS. You can always buy a second hand Golf for in cases the family would need a more practical car.

    This is how I would do it..my girlfriend doesnt like my GT3 and GT2...too loud for her, "ugly wing"...but thats the way I am - I told her - you will have to accept this within me. And it worked - no more discussion about it. If we travel somewhere and for daily use we use my Audi.

    PS: Im surprised when you say: you saved a huge amoung of 30K for the 997 GTS lease- is this normal today? I mean to get such a car with such a relative "low" first down payment? I always paid everything at once..things I cant afford directly I wouldnt buy...but maybe Im old fashioned..but Im not that old..so you see there are still "young" people around with solid finances..

    take care


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    I do not buy cars, usually. Just think about the 19% VAT for a moment. If you buy a car privately, you can't deduct the 19%, thus you loose a lot when you try to sell the car because dealers prefer cars with deductible VAT.

    Another point is capital: If I would pay 200k at once for the Panamera Turbo S for example, I wouldn't have the money for investments. I can usually double the money in two years or so, no kidding(the current "crisis" is wonderful for me), so it doesn't make any sense.

    The only car I bought is the C63 AMG Coupe. I plan to keep it longer and I bought it for the company, so I can deduct the VAT. It is my daily driver now.

    Fun is important for me but a car which stays most of the time in the garage isn't fun anymore. I used the Carrera GTS Cab for about an hour...in the past five months, go figure.

    Yes, the Panamera Turbo S is a compromise but I think a pretty good one. Looking at the naked performance numbers and even track performance, I think that only the new 991 Turbo or maybe GT3 RS could impress me. 

    Personally, I feel that Porsche made a mistake by not providing more rear room in the new 991. I haven't read anywhere that sports cars need to have little interior room. They need to be powerful and they need to have a low(er) weight. Judging by the Panamera Turbo S or even the Nissan GT-R, I think however that even weight has lost some importance in the equation. 

    wink


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    RC:
    CPA4S:

    i was told a manual for north america again!

    No manual as far as I heard. It wouldn't make much sense to offer manual on the Cayenne GTS while the Panamera GTS gets PDK only. 

    Who knows...maybe because there is no PDK for the Cayenne, they will offer manual... Smiley

    In my opinion, manual doesn't make much sense in a SUV but to each his own I guess. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

    Previous Cayenne GTS had a manual gearbox as standard but I have never seen any on the market...


    --

    Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting. Steve McQueen


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    I know that the 955 GTS had a manual gearbox but this doesn't mean many people were buying it. I saw a couple of GTS in Germany and at my dealer and all of them had Tiptronic. I also remember driving a 955 S with manual once for a couple of hours and I hated it. It just didn't feel right. I think Porsche offered manual mainly because of their US customer base but I don't have a clue how many Cayenne with manual, incl. GTS, actually sold.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    about 3% of GTS' in USA and i think we were close to double in Canada.


    --

    2012 991 C2S -manual / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold / 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual /2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    I am with RC on this one.  Why would you get a manual in an SUV?  Extremely strange choice.


    --
    2012 Cayenne TT (on order for june 2012), 997.1 Targa 4s, 2009 Q5 3.2

    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    BlackSparrow:

    I am with RC on this one.  Why would you get a manual in an SUV?  Extremely strange choice.

    makes the GTS far more engaging a vehicle and extracts the sport of the SUV - sticking it in auto and cruising does seem to be what 97% of the owners think so you are on the full side of the deck


    --

    2012 991 C2S -manual / 2010 997.2 turbo cab manual, sold / 2008 Cayenne GTS Manual /2008 RS 60 sold /04 C4S sold - 08 Cayenne Turbo PDCC sold


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    If you take a roadtrip to Montreal in it, give me a buzz ;)


    --
    2012 Cayenne TT (on order for june 2012), 997.1 Targa 4s, 2009 Q5 3.2

    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    I drove both 955 GTS with manual gearbox / sport suspension and Tiptronic / air suspension.

    Except for the look, I don't see the interrest of the Tiptronic version that is nothing more than a Turbo Look Cayenne S.

    I thought the manual one very fun to drive and very sporty even if it is not the SUV philosophy but if you want a pure sporty SUV, it is the only one.

    Ans as a friend says, it is completely useless thus absolutely essential...


    --

    Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting. Steve McQueen


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    My wife has a 2008 Cayenne GTS with a manual/stick shift. It is a lot of fun to drive. Between the stick shift and the PDCC option and the sport exhaust, the giant SUV feels like a sports car! Same 0-60 time as my BMW 535.


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    Martini:

    My wife has a 2008 Cayenne GTS with a manual/stick shift. It is a lot of fun to drive. Between the stick shift and the PDCC option and the sport exhaust, the giant SUV feels like a sports car! Same 0-60 time as my BMW 535.

    If your Cayenne GTS feels like a sports car, you may have never driven a sports car. Smiley

    Even my wife's M3 Cab didn't feel like a sports car...and the weight was almost half a ton below the Cayenne weight. Smiley

    I get it...manual feels more involving and I also get the North American obsession with manual since many people can't drive stick over there but a manual doesn't really make sense in a SUV...or any other 2+ ton car for that matter. I'm pretty sure that I'm going to drive my Panamera Turbo S is auto mode all the time, Sport Chrono Plus keeps me occupied enough. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    Exactly! I don't own a sports car! Desperately and badly wanting one however (drove the new 991 and am still on the fence on that; not as thrilling as I was expecting; I think I had more fun in the Ferrari 612 I test drove; may wait to see what the 991 Turbo is like). My wife has an M3 with performance package (why does she get all the cool cars?), and even that I refute is not a true sports car as it is still derived from a 3-series. Not a pure-bred.

    RC, even though I was one of the ones telling you to pick a Panamera over a Cayenne a few months ago, I'm telling you, you would still be very impressed with the Cayenne GTS with a stick shift! The most fun you can have in a multi-ton SUV!


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    I drove stick in a Cayenne S and it was the worst experience in my life (I think I already told you guys about that).

    The Panamera Turbo S has PDK, so if I want manual, I got it (minus the clutch) but I usually don't use the manual option on PDK or auto tranny equipped cars because you simply can't beat the fuzzy logic of these transmissions, the programming works very very well, especially with PDK in sport chrono plus mode. Same with my C63 AMG Coupe, the auto function of the MCT gearbox is almost perfect, why mess around with it? For fun? I rather concentrate on my driving than on my shifting. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    RC:
    ..........For fun? I rather concentrate on my driving than on my shifting.

    SmileySmileySmiley  Shifting is thing of a past.


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    Ron (Houston):
    RC:
    ..........For fun? I rather concentrate on my driving than on my shifting.

    SmileySmileySmiley  Shifting is thing of a past.

    Don't throw too much dirt on its grave yet.

    There is some utilitarian value with a manual transmission. If your electronics have a fault and drain the battery, or if the battery suddenly dies you can compression start a manual and not be stuck waiting hours for a tow truck. They are also cheaper to repair. At some point you have to ask is the added price of a PDK and its two tenths of a sec quicker 0 to 60 time really, actually worth the money for street driving or is it more of a case of being just a F1 fanboy option.Smiley


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    The advantage of PDK is that I can choose what system I want to use, manual or auto. Even better, my wife can drive the car too. Definitely a huge advantage is when you are stuck for an hour in a huge traffic jam, this is when manual sucks most. I can't see any disadvantages with PDK, unless of course you have a technical issue but you know, sh.t happens. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    Teamspeed.com is reporting that the Cayenne GTS is leaked on Christophorus Ipad app. Could anyone get a hold of it?


    Re: 2012 Cayenne GTS

    ok, it's now official.

     

     


     
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