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    2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    we know it's a matter of time... some say Paris 2009 as a 2010 model... anyone has reliable info.? where would that 0-60 drop to? 3.4 seconds?

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    Thats insane I got the straight pipes on my mine and when you hit the throttle I can almost feel my car jump or skip before whooshing me away. I wonder what it feel sliek to have more HP or launch control.

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    The word on the street is that the turbo at the Paris autoshow had the new DI engine/PDK, and it's a done deal for the FL cars. Can anybody who was there confirm?

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    Interesting. I am a Manual Gear Die-Hard, but the evidence is mounting that I am going to need a second Porsche with PDK one of these days. I drove Ferrari F430 and Lambo Gallardo and just love those auto-manual's more continuous power delivery. In particularly the transition between 1st and 2nd (always a let-down in manual cars for me) is so much smoother. Just my 2 cents--YMMV.

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=460123

    Just got back from Miller Motorsports Park (what a track...) and, uh, found it strange that I was a bit bummed every time I got into a new 997 with a stick shift and three pedals.
    While the challenge of learning 28~ turns over 4.4 miles probably played a part in my preference for the two-pedal 997s, I have to say that the opportunity to focus completely on my lines and braking points and throttle inputs did too -- and I suspect that would translate to tracks I know better, too, like T-hill, SP, etc.
    For trackwork, at least, I am starting to really, really like PDK. Still hate the buttons and (more so) the orientation of the shift commands (still pushing forward for downshifts... ...after several times with PDK now), but the chance for more focus with no performance loss (and more likely a gain) is VERY alluring. And those 66 + pounds are awfully well hidden.
    Still not sure I'd prefer PDK for backroads driving, as I just love to heel-toe, but I may end up a convert for track stuff. Time will tell, but I would never have thought it possible...
    Also: new 997S is very, very good, as is its 3.8.

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    The TT will have PDK, so what about the GT3 mk2?

    My dealer say yes, but some news on the internet say no.

    Anyone?

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    we need evidence of a 997TT FT with PDK. During FL launch 2 months ago porsche insisted that the current PDK cannot handle the torque of the TT or GT3

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    Quote:
    C2Nerves said:
    we need evidence of a 997TT FT with PDK. During FL launch 2 months ago porsche insisted that the current PDK cannot handle the torque of the TT or GT3



    If Nissan can build one that copes with the similar torque, then surely Porsche can to. Also Bugatti's gearbox copes with way more torque in it's DSG box.

    Porsche will definitely be building one, as right now they are behind in the technology game.

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    Quote:
    Guy said:
    Quote:
    C2Nerves said:
    we need evidence of a 997TT FT with PDK. During FL launch 2 months ago porsche insisted that the current PDK cannot handle the torque of the TT or GT3



    If Nissan can build one that copes with the similar torque, then surely Porsche can to. Also Bugatti's gearbox copes with way more torque in it's DSG box.

    Porsche will definitely be building one, as right now they are behind in the technology game.



    Isn't the Veyron box a heavy expensive monster?

    ...And the GT-R's transmission ... Well, how well does it seem like it's holding up?

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    Also, although the GT-R is supposed to have the same 480 bhp as the Turbo it has much less torque... 588 Nm vs 620/680 Nm (normal/sport mode)

    Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    ZF Press Information

    "7-Speed Dual Clutch Transmission by Porsche and ZF Enters Volume Production"

    * Faster gearshifts without traction interruption.
    * Lower consumption with improved driving performance.
    * Presentation at the 'Transmissions in Vehicles' Event of the VDI (Association of German Engineers) in Friedrichshafen.
    * Volume production launch in the Porsche 911 Carrera.

    The new dual clutch transmission is presented for the first time to approximately 900 engineers and press representatives at the VDI 'Transmissions in Vehicles' Event in Friedrichshafen. The 7DT sports transmission is particularly suited for applications with high engine speed requirements. Gear changes without traction interruption allow for very good acceleration and vehicle handling with low fuel consumption. The transmission was developed in Kressbronn, Brandenburg, and Schweinfurt; it is produced at the Brandenburg site of ZF's Car Driveline Technology division.

    Drivers of sporty cars expect their vehicle's engine power to be transformed as directly as possible into dynamic propulsion. In addition to this acceleration "linked directly to the accelerator", however, they also attach great importance to automatic shifting comfort. ZF's 7-speed sports transmission accommodates both requirements for vehicles featuring highly powerful engines: the sporty agility of a manual transmission and the shifting comfort of an automatic transmission.

    In the dual clutch transmission this becomes possible by connecting two separate transmissions to the engine via two parallel powershift clutches. The even gears are located on one transmission, the uneven ones on the other. This basic principle of the transmission has the advantage that one gear in one of these transmissions ensures propulsion, whereas in the other transmission the next gear is already preselected by the electrohydraulic control unit. When shifting, one clutch is closed while the other opens. During the shifting process, traction is not interrupted. This means that, during acceleration, engine torque is continuously transformed and propels the vehicle - making an essential difference from the manual transmissions which were usually installed in powerful sports cars. In contrast to torque converters, the dual-clutch module by ZF Sachs, the Powertrain and Suspension Components division of ZF, is also suited for higher speeds of up to 8,000 revolutions.

    All gear changes - also downshifts - are processed just as evenly and quickly with the 7DT 50 (that is the ZF-internal product designation); so the ZF dual clutch transmission sets a new benchmark for sportiness. A new speed governing concept, which is used for the first time in volume production with the 7DT, also contributes to these extremely short shifting times.

    The drivers can choose from fully automatic shifting or manual gear selection via shift paddles or a shift lever. Also in the fully automatic mode, ZF offers several shifting programs: Apart from the comfort mode, there is also a sports and a supersports mode, the latter with considerably increased shifting dynamics (fastest shifting times and race-start function).

    The 7DT sports transmission by Porsche and ZF excels thanks to its high power-to-weight ratio: The gears and shafts of the dual clutch transmission, which weighs approximately 120 kg, are produced from case hardened steel according to special, ZF-specific delivery instructions. ZF-engineers have introduced several measures - for example, controlling the cooling fluid flow as required to keep drag losses low. The 7-speed dual clutch transmission not only allows for particularly sporty driving performance but, thanks to its very good efficiency, also achieves consumption values which are below those of a manual transmission.

    Especially with sports cars, there is a demand for transaxle transmissions - that is, transmissions with an integrated differential and axle drive - the 7DT sports transmission can also be supplied in this variant, which is suited for mid-engined vehicles with rear axle or all-wheel drive. This transaxle version of ZF's 7-speed dual clutch transmission is starting volume production in the torque range up to 450 Newton meters.

    Caption:

    New reference with dual clutch transmissions: The 7DT sports transmission by Porsche and ZF is available in two versions, for torques up to 450 and up to 700 Newton meters.

    Source: ZF press release



    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    A future Di 997tt at 1620kg with 510hp/680NM would quite probably be able to achieve 10.Xs 0-200kph times due to this PDK box with the uninterrupted flow of torque...

    a typical manual change can take about 1s from interrupting forward G force to resuming full G force in the next gear (see trace below) so if the PDK reduces this to 0.2s the saving over 3 gearchanges to 200kph could be 2+seconds hence 0-200kph in low 10s mark with a lot less headline torque - its bloody voodoo I tell you

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    my question is, why the awkward shift buttons, versus paddle shifters!!!!!!!!

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    Quote:
    Marwan Arakji said:
    my question is, why the awkward shift buttons, versus paddle shifters!!!!!!!!



    There have been about 500 posts debating this issue over the last 4-5 months, where all opinions have been expressed.

    Please do a search!

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    A future Di 997tt at 1620kg with 510hp/680NM would quite probably be able to achieve 10.Xs 0-200kph times due to this PDK box with the uninterrupted flow of torque...

    a typical manual change can take about 1s from interrupting forward G force to resuming full G force in the next gear (see trace below) so if the PDK reduces this to 0.2s the saving over 3 gearchanges to 200kph could be 2+seconds hence 0-200kph in low 10s mark with a lot less headline torque - its bloody voodoo I tell you



    Thanks for the analysis Toby

    Isn't the Carrera PDK gearbox 30kg heavier than a manual one though?!

    ie. I am guessing the 700Nm PDK gearbox will be even heavier than that, and surely that will have a performance impact? You are looking at closer to 1660kg with 500bhp.

    How does this PDK gearchange time-save compare to the current Tip version - which would have the same PS/kg ratio of 0.30? The current Tip does 0-200kph in 12.1s according to Porsche.


    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    It is the seamless way these PDKs deliver the torque (and maintain the boost level) virtually eliminating any drop off during changes combined with closely stacked ratios which allow the high end of the torque curve (ie higher power levels) to be utilised, which seems to really give them the edge compared to tip/manual.

    The Ferrari 599 has amazing acceleration for its weight, 1750kg, 620PS/608NM and has been timed 0-200 10.2s 0-250 16.6s which is about the same as the manual boxed Cargraphic 624PS 997tt which weighed 149Xkg - these fancy boxes certainly give the numbers....

    As a caveat, I have zero interest in them, I am old and like to change gear the old fashioned way

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    A future Di 997tt at 1620kg with 510hp/680NM would quite probably be able to achieve 10.Xs 0-200kph times due to this PDK box with the uninterrupted flow of torque...





    Are you sure...

    The current 997TT with PDK does 0-200 in about 12.2s. The 20 additional hp of the FL version will improve the acceleratio a bit as will the even quicker than Tiptronic all new PDK gear-box. However, any time below 11.5 would really surprise me. My bet would be 11.8s

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    It is the seamless way these PDKs deliver the torque (and maintain the boost level) virtually eliminating any drop off during changes combined with closely stacked ratios which allow the high end of the torque curve (ie higher power levels) to be utilised, which seems to really give them the edge compared to tip/manual.




    Same does the current Tiptronic in the 997TT. At least that's what Porsche claims... The key to 0-200 performance below 11.5s would be significant weight reductions

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    The Ferrari 599 has amazing acceleration for its weight, 1750kg, 620PS/608NM and has been timed 0-200 10.2s 0-250 16.6s which is about the same as the manual boxed Cargraphic 624PS 997tt which weighed 149Xkg - these fancy boxes certainly give the numbers....




    The official 0-200 time of the 599GTB is 11s

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    There is a good article in EVO mag May '08 which discusses these gearboxes. I have put a pic of the acceleration traces below and to me the relevant one is the Nissan GTR since this represents best what Porsche will be able to do with the PDK in terms of speed of change and tuning to keep the maximum boost throughout the acceleration even during changes to give the seamless curve with no dips for the changes - this is why I beieve a 510hp/680NM ~1620kg 997tt will be a 0-200kph sub 11s car
    Edit, whilst the Ferrari shift is very fast, I believe because it is not turbocharged it loses some of the forward Gs during the shift (compared with the Nissan which EVO describe thus: upshifts are very fast but also smooth, the sensation being that on each shift there's more power despite the engine working against longer gearing turbo boost remains at maximum throughout)

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Interesting chart

    It will be interesting to see the final specs of the 997TT FL. The faster the 997TT with PDK will be the better

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    a typical manual change can take about 1s from interrupting forward G force to resuming full G force in the next gear (see trace below) so if the PDK reduces this to 0.2s the saving over 3 gearchanges to 200kph could be 2+seconds hence 0-200kph in low 10s mark with a lot less headline torque - its bloody voodoo I tell you



    Sorry to disappoint you, but your calculation is based on a fallacy.

    The elapsed time reduction of 2+ seconds you mentioned is obviously based on the (implied) formula:
    3 x (1.0 - 0.2) = 2.4 seconds

    This result would only be correct if the car were to travel with ZERO velocity for the 1 second duration of each gearshift, which is obviously not the case. It is in fact just accelerating with "zero g" as long as the clutch is open, so the influence on elapsed time to a given speed is much less than the sum of the actual shift times.

    It's not bloody voodoo - it's boring old physics.

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    Fritz, thanks for the correction - So a similar chart of a PDK turbo car (Nissan/Porsche tt) would also show reduction in longitudinal Gs at the point of the change it would just be over a much shorter period, sufficiently quick so that the actual acceleration curve does not "blip" because of it (like in the Nissan curve above ?)

    So should we be taking the flat part of the manual acceleration curve as the time elapsed not accelerating ie approx 0.4s compared to (again Nissan GTR chart) no time (although in reality it will be what 0.1s ?)

    Would it be a fallacy to say 3 X (0.4-0.1) = 0.9s as an improvement 0-200kph PDK vs equivalent manual 997tt ?

    Now add in an extra ~30 Porsche Di hp and sub 11s may still be possible

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm...

    Questions for the Nring "experts" here please:

    Have both versions of the Facelift 997S's, PDK versus manual, been tested by Sport Auto at Nring? If so what's the time difference?

    Has auto-manual type tranny been conclusive been proven to be faster than manual at Nring? For example, for other cars with dual trannies available, like F430 and Lambo, is the F1 tranny faster than manual? If so, by how much in general?

    TIA.

    Re: 2009 997TT with PDK & DFI, when? anyone?

    My dealer in NY told me a few weeks ago that no one is talking on the record, but the plan is to have a PDK TT by the 2011 model year, to be released in 2010. However, as we all know, the intro. can be pushed back a year if there are pre-production issues OR conversely, moved up a model year (unlikely). He also said that a GT3 AND GT2 with PDK should be out within 12-24 months of the TT introduction. Finally, he said "don't hold your breath" waiting for the PDK version of the TT because there have been issues, as some have mentioned, with excess torque, etc. I'm not a gambling man, but if I had to gamble, I'd say the 2011 model TT will have PDK (to be introduced in 2010).

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Questions for the Nring "experts" here please:

    Have both versions of the Facelift 997S's, PDK versus manual, been tested by Sport Auto at Nring? If so what's the time difference?

    Has auto-manual type tranny been conclusive been proven to be faster than manual at Nring? For example, for other cars with dual trannies available, like F430 and Lambo, is the F1 tranny faster than manual? If so, by how much in general?

    TIA.



    Sportauto did only test the manual version of the 997TT. We can only speculate about the performance of the 997TT Tip. My guess: Tip would be ca. 2-4 seconds slower than manual around the NBR-NS Any other views?

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Thanks Markus. How about the Facelift Non-Turbo 997, has HVS driven PDK versus manual at Nring yet? If so, what's the verdict? Is PDK faster as Porsche claims, 8 seconds I think? http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/18/porsches-new-pdk-transmission-trims-911-lap-time-on-the-ring/

    Reports from US reviewers on the PDK 997 have been nothing short of spectacular, with the single "negative" point that of the feel of connection to the car, which a manual car still seems better. For me, not because of Nring time or fast acceleration, but for the sense uninterrupted power flow, I am thinking more and more I will "need" a PDK 911 some time in the future, possibly next generation 991, IN ADDITION to my manual Turbo.

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Questions for the Nring "experts" here please:

    Have both versions of the Facelift 997S's, PDK versus manual, been tested by Sport Auto at Nring? If so what's the time difference?

    Has auto-manual type tranny been conclusive been proven to be faster than manual at Nring? For example, for other cars with dual trannies available, like F430 and Lambo, is the F1 tranny faster than manual? If so, by how much in general?

    TIA.



    Sportauto did only test the manual version of the 997TT. We can only speculate about the performance of the 997TT Tip. My guess: Tip would be ca. 2-4 seconds slower than manual around the NBR-NS Any other views?


    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Due to recent shenanigans by Nissan, I would be pissed is Porsche isn't working hard right now to deliver us a PDK TT by next year. But for me, I don't mind going 2sec slow, I will shift the old fashioned way till the day I die.

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    Thanks Markus. How about the Facelift Non-Turbo 997, has HVS driven PDK versus manual at Nring yet? If so, what's the verdict? Is PDK faster as Porsche claims, 8 seconds I think?



    The 997FL (Cup tires, PASM sport, PCCB, PDK) did the NBR (Supertest) in a remarkable 7.50 This compares to a 7.52 of the manual 997TT (second test following the original Supertest).

    From what I recall the excellent performance of the 997FL seems to result from suspension changes in particular. PDK might contribute a bit as well. However, I would not expect the PDK factor to be as significant as the suspension factor

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    I am shocked that a tt did worse time that a carrera pdk or not..
    Did the turbo also have pccb, cup tires, lsd?
    This is embarassing given the power difference really..

    Re: Porsche 7-speed PDK gearbox: 450Nm and 700Nm..

    Quote:
    GT said:
    I am shocked that a tt did worse time that a carrera pdk or not..
    Did the turbo also have pccb, cup tires, lsd?



    Unfortunately, yes

    However, I am sure that the 997TT FL will be much quicker

     
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